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RelentlessImp posted:Sorry? Forcing 'good feelings' onto a person that you can then take advantage of isn't the definition of a date-rape drug? Hey guys ProfessorCirno just solved the 'can you give consent while drunk' question - they're in favor of it! Guess we can let Azure Horizon back on the boards! I cannot imagine a more unhinged response to my post then accusing me of being a date rapist. Drakenel posted:Wasn't sure, but it's still sketch as all hell and there's no real good reason for making people drink it. It is sketch! Daeren is an rear end in a top hat. He threw a big hedonistic party and was happy when demons showed up so he could explode them without caring about his guest's safety; at least on harder difficulties, the real challenge of this fight is that the random civilians keep running around the demons and die to opportunity attacks, so if you want to keep them alive, you have to immediately bring a lot of control. What he isn't, at least by my reading, is a psychopathic rapist, as is being presented.
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Mar 14, 2024 03:08
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Daeran was never supposed to be a good guy.
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Mar 14, 2024 03:09
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This thread is not a place to debate the definition of goddamn sexual assault and I'm closing the thread until the next update.
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Mar 14, 2024 03:09
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Have we calmed down now? The writers didn't care enough about what they wrote and the implications thereof to specify the implications of what they put into the game. As far as I'm concerned, that's their problem. I call em like I see em, and if Owlcat wants me to do otherwise, they can change the game accordingly.
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Mar 14, 2024 16:28
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So, Cyth, a question: You seems to dislike the evil companions in this game. You think they're poorly written, or they are well written but their alignment's a deal breaker (not judging, mind)?
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Mar 14, 2024 18:46
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A Family Affair For those curious, a record of Yua's alignment shifts to date.   "We'll have to win without hope. It will be hard. The entire Abyss is against us — we can only win by some miracle. Which means... We'll have to make one happen! What other choice do we have? We'll work a miracle, and win — because we have to!" (The elf smiles broadly and nods to herself.)I drop in on Ember and she helpfully informs Yua that Ember's optimism is rooted in nihilism. Brave words from a teenager-analogue whose divine powers come from an archangel, and Ember's also dead wrong that the gods aren't helping.    Today we're dealing with Woljiff.  There's a lot of special interactions throughout this storyline if you're playing a tiefling.   "Sorry I couldn't swing by sooner, dear sister Kerismei. It was just one thing after another: first I was in shackles, next... well, no, I was still in shackles, and I was being watched, and then the chief got me out, and I came here straight away. I knew you'd been waiting on me." "Enough talking, or else we'll be here all night. So. We had a clear plan: we were going to wait for nightfall, slip into the shop, grab the goods, and leave. Even if the neighbors called the guard, there was time to get away. But what happened? That bitch Irabeth showed up almost right away. She knew we'd be there. Somebody betrayed us, and I have a good idea who it was. What do you have to say to that? Make it quick." "Do you think Woljiff knows the name of the traitor?" (Kerismei turns to you.) "She speaks. I thought Woljif only brought you so he'd have someone to hide behind if things went south. Yes, he knows the name of the traitor. Every gang that brother Woljif has been a part of has very quickly come to an end: their hideout location was passed to the guards, or their competitors found out where they could ambush them. Woljif is the only one who always comes out smelling of roses. If you think about it, you'll come to the same conclusion as us." "I'd have said that meant that Woljif was cursed with finding friends among losers and screw-ups. But now that he's with us, that must mean the curse has been broken!" "Woljiff, tell us your side of the story. What happened?"The treatment of tieflings in this game reminds me very much of a certain strain of real-life racism: the dominant ethnic group/culture says group X is untrustworthy and prone to criminal behavior, treats group X like poo poo and bars the doors to traditionally respectable occupations and resources, thereby driving group X to criminal behavior due to lack of respectable opportunities and resentment of their poor treatment, providing the dominant group with further ammunition to continue reinforcing the cycle.  "And the most important thing was that none of us was to be hanging about the shop ahead of the job! No casing out the place, no calling attention to ourselves from either the golem or its master. This job was top secret!" "That's all true so far. Go on." "We did everything right, with the locks and the golem. I picked the lock, I remember it clear as day: sister Dalna was on lookout... brother Melroun had the scroll. Doffie, Tavie, and Varnir brought the sacks. We covered the windows and lit the torches... I remember scooping up rings and tossing them in a sack, and one right expensive one rolled away from me. I crawled under a table after it, and next thing I know — Irabeth was there! Everybody scampered! But I was still under the table. Not my finest moment. I was going to wait it out, but then those blockheads were dragging me out by my tail and put me in shackles. They took all my rings off me — about twenty thousand worth! And to add insult to injury, I never even found the last one! In the end, I got busted over nothing." "So, they caught you, poor thing, stripped you of your loot, and you didn't even manage to stash anything." (Kerismei is pointedly polishing her knife.) "Where's the Moon of the Abyss, brother Woljif?" "What is the Moon of the Abyss?" "It was an amulet! It used to sit on a little cushion in the window of Ancientries and Wonders. Sterling silver, sparkled like a star, fine piece of work: on one side there was a half-moon, you know, a crescent, a waning Moon, and in the middle there was a dark crystal, like it was eclipsing the moon. Old man Fyllemen was so proud of that amulet! He used to say, 'I'll never sell it, it's the jewel of my collection.'" (Woljif sighs unhappily.) "I used to go there to see what kinds of treasures there were in the world. There's nothin' else to look at in Kenabres. People used to claim it was a powerful thing, but who's to say... If you ever stole a thing like that, you'd have the guards on you the second you tried to fence it!" "Everybody knew that you were always hanging around Ancientries and Wonders, drooling over the Moon of the Abyss. Did you think you could swipe it in all the commotion and keep it for yourself? Did you hope that we'd all be locked up and you'd get off scot-free, and with a fancy trinket to boot? Don't take me for a mug, Woljif. I see right through you." "Why would Irabeth arrest her own informant?" "Took the words right out of my mouth! It doesn't make any sense! If I was the rat, I'd have kissed her on the hand and been long gone by now! You know me, sister! I'm a cautious fella, not an idiot. Why would I go against the Family? So the fish in the Sellen can have a nice, Woljif-sized dinner? The Moon of the Abyss is a pretty bauble, to be sure, but it's just an amulet — it ain't worth dying over." "You knew Irabeth's people would protect you, you knew you could pin the Moon going missing on them, and now you've come here with backup — you knew exactly what I was going to say to you. Only problem is, nobody's returned the amulet to Fyllemen. Are you giving Irabeth a cut, is that it?"So, Woljiff is lying. He lies a lot, in fact.   "He speaks the truth. You'll find some knights who'll take bribes, I'm sorry to say, but Irabeth Tirabade isn't one of them." "Go on, Woljiff." "That's the whole sorry story!" (Woljif crosses his arms, looking affronted.) "Some Family this turned out to be. S'just a name in the end. In a real family, people take each other at their word — they don't throw around accusations! I didn't take the Moon of the Abyss! What am I gonna do with it? You can't sell it to no crusaders — it's a special item. You can't wear it — it'll get nicked. It's pretty to look at, sure, but it ain't that pretty! If it's that important to you, sister Kerismei, I'll find it. And I'll drag the traitor here by his horns, just so's you don't end up at the bottom of the Sellen. But d'you know what you're gonna owe me for that? An apology. Right here, in front of everyone, you're going to apologize loud and clear so everybody hears it! You'll say, 'Sorry, Woljif, you're a good guy and I was wrong about you!'" "...Fine. You're one of my people, which is why I'm going to give you some time. But if you run, brother Woljif, the Family will get you wherever you go. You'll spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder, tossing and turning at night, fearing poison in every cup and every meal. You'll look into the eyes of every tiefling you meet, wondering if the Family's come for you. You'll have no peace. But one day, you'll be tired of running. You'll stop to catch your breath. And that is when we'll get you. Got that?" "You've a way with words, sister Kerismei — a way that almost made me wet myself, but a way, nonetheless. Let's go, chief! We'll go chat to that scary gal Irabeth. She knows you a little, we can ask her who ratted us out. I'll let you do the talking." "We'll find the real traitor." "And I'll get my apology! Onward to Irabeth, chief! Let's go clear my good name!" "Root out the traitor, but be quick about it. Time's running out — I don't want to get chewed up by demons."Most people will do Woljiff's quest first in Act 1, and there's a reason for it.  Robbing the thieflings yields this for Yua. Another trip back to Defender's Heart later...  "There's a traitor I'm trying to track down. Who is your informant among the thieflings?" (Irabeth arches her brows in surprise.) "Kenabres is threatened by a demon horde, and you have enough spare time to help out thieves?" (Irabeth sighs.) "I don't like this, but I hope you know what you're doing. I'll tell you everything I know. I did not see my informant's face. He slipped out of a dark alley, handed me the note and disappeared." (Irabeth hesitates as she tries to remember.) "He had a cloak with a hood masking his face, but the horns — the long horns — didn't fit under it. There should be a guardian golem in Ancientries and Wonders — the shop they tried to rob. The owner gave us the construct's codeword just in case. The golem itself was destroyed, but the head seems to be intact, so you can interrogate the thing and find out what it saw. The codeword is 'Hand of Irori.' The shop's owner must have escaped, but there's a chance you'll get lucky with the golem." For the record, I went along with this mostly because the thieflings had already been willing to help Irabeth and had taken up post at Defender's Heart. This bunch was, obviously, much less inclined to be helpful than the first, but I had a feeling that this Moon of the Abyss was trouble. Off we go.  This place has seen better days. But first, let's see who's under this shelf.  "You're... a Pathfinder?" "That's right. Finnean Dismar, Pathfinder and crusader. I roam around the Worldwound wherever my tasks lead me... scouting, mostly, but this last while I've just been hanging around in Kenabres, waiting until I'm needed again. I'm bored out of my mind, but at least this shop makes for better lodging than some inn." "What I meant was... What are you?" "What's that supposed to mean? I just told you. You want to know where I hail from, is that it? Well, I'm from around here, actually. We Kellids of the Stareye clan fled when the Worldwound troubles began, but I couldn't stand by while the demons wreaked havoc, so I came back.Or did you mean to ask about my weapon of choice? My best weapon is every weapon! I'm a skilled and capable fellow, if I do say so myself. I can swing a sword and poke with a spear, but what I'm best at is communing with the spirits. They call folks like me 'phantom blades.'" "Phantom blade? What's that?" "It's like a spiritualist, but with a twist. It means that some spirit took a liking to me at some point, and it can turn into whatever weapon I need. Handy, eh? I don't need any whetstones or enchantments! Doesn't take up space either. Although, to be fair, it's not a barrel of laughs. The spirits that bestow this kind of power don't come from happy places, and they're not exactly bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. They usually appear after great battles that leave few survivors." "We can't afford to waste time. Kenabres is under attack by demons." "Wait, what? The last thing I saw was some thieves breaking in here. Then the guards came, everyone was running around... after that, it's a bit of a blur — right when things got intense, they dropped the cabinet on me. I couldn't even help the owner. I was just lying under the shelves like a dimwit until you came along. If there are demons in Kenabres, we must do something about it. The city needs every blade it can get. Hey, do you mind taking me with you? I don't think I can handle this alone, and besides, the more the merrier!" "All right, I'll take you with me." "I swear you won't regret it. I can do all sorts of things. Is there anything your party is missing? A sword, a spear, a bow? Just say the word!"So, the concept of sentient weapons with wills and intellects of their own is a very old one in Western literature and mythology. In video games, though, the concept was popularized by Lilarcor, a talking sword in Baldur's Gate 2 that was extremely enthusiastic about being a sword. Finnean, however, doesn't even realize he's a weapon. He seems to think he's a living person.  Finnean gets his own button in your inventory.  As he boasted, Finnean can take the form of any type of weapon in the game! I elect to make him a heavy crossbow for now for Yua, and hand over her magic light crossbow to Ember.  'Ghost touch' means that Finnean can attack and hit incorporeal enemies, like ghosts, without issue. One reason most people like to do Woljiff's quest to pick up Finnean is that he simplifies enemies like the shadow demon in the Market Square.  "Hand of Irori." "Codeword... correct." (The golem's eyes glow brighter.) "Awaiting orders." "Tell me about any suspicious people who came to the shop in the last week." (The golem is silent for a moment.) "Fifty-six individuals entered the shop. Human female, old. Gnome male, old. Human female..." "He'll be reeling off customers till nightfall! We need to ask it in a different way." "Were any of the suspicious people tieflings?" (The golem is silent for a while.) "Tieflings. Three. Tiefling male, middle-aged. Tiefling male, young. Tiefling female, young." "Describe the young male tiefling." "Tiefling male. Medium height. Short horns curling backward. Medium-length tail. Eye color: yellow. Hair color: black. Special observations: annoyed Master." "Horns, hair, tail... that sounds like me! But it's not possible! I know what the security's like here, I didn't come near the place. I give you my word, chief!" "No special observations. Subject was unremarkable."Here's a hint about what's going on: our first encounter with Woljiff was him doing a weird shadow magic thing that he dodged the question of how he accomplished.  "Describe the middle-aged male tiefling." "Tiefling male. Medium height. Long horns. Medium-length tail. Eye color: pale blue. Skin color: dark. Special observations: red hair." "Oh! That's our traitor, I'd bet your life on it! Kerismei drilled it into our heads that we wasn't to go hanging about the shop! Hmm, red hair... We've got a couple of gingers. And plenty more who get it out of a bottle. So much for a special observation. Golems ain't all they're cracked up to be, eh? Maybe its master knows more." "Describe the female tiefling." "Tiefling female. Above average height. Hair: long, pale. Tail not observed. Long horns. Eye color: blue. Special observations: scar on nose, baldric with gold stitching." "Hmm, I don't know that one, a new arrival most likely. Gold stitching, eh... Wouldn't mind gettin' to know her a little better..." "Enough. Where is your master?" "Fyllemen Frulliatros, my master, is in his hiding place. Revealing the location of the hiding place is prohibited. Prohibited. Prohibited." "He likely holed himself up in the basement when the commotion started. The entrance should be around here somewhere..." "Where is the basement in this place?" "The basement is below me. I guard the basement. Leaving my post is prohibited."I'm guessing the female tiefling is meant to be a reference to some other character in this game but I can't place the description.  Fortunately, the golem is in no position to stop us.  Leaving the owner down below.  "Yeah, yeah, makes sense. We're all of those things, and much, much more! Before you report us to the authorities, mind if we have a chat?" [Good] "Please, calm down. No one's going to rob you." (The gnome peers at you.) "Hmm. You do look better dressed than the local thieves and ragamuffins. You came here to tell me that the nightmare is over? No... It's not! You're here to steal my riches! Get back! (The gnome notices Woljif and his rounded face turns scarlet.) "You! Woljif, the dirty little sneak thief! You've been sniffing around my shop for years — finally worked up the courage to rob me, did you? Get out of here! You and your pals have taken everything already, I'm sure! (The gnome seems to settle slightly.) "My name's Fyllemen Frulliatros. I was the owner of this shop, but I'm not sure I can claim to be the owner of anything now. I hope there's at least something left of it." "Oh, come off it! Your shop's fine! It's a bit... ransacked, maybe. But nothing a bit of spit and polish can't fix!" "Where were you the night of the robbery?" "Do you think I robbed my own shop? I was here, in the basement! I was told to make it look like I'd left. The Watch was very keen to get their hands on those thieflings, they seem to be multiplying all over Golarion! So, of course, I did everything they said... and I've been stuck in this basement since then! The golem wouldn't move away from the door, no matter how much I yelled at it! But then I thought that it was all to the good: somebody came by after the guards and caused a ruckus upstairs, bellowing like mad! Taking advantage of my absence!" "Tell me about the tieflings that have visited Ancientries and Wonders recently." "Why should I tell you anything about my customers? You're not from the city guard or the Eagle Watch!" "Chief, if he keeps diggin' his heels in, just say the word, I know how to loosen his tongue." [Bluff 12] "I'm helping the Eagle Watch to catch the culprits. It's in your interest to tell me everything."What's a little white lie for a hopefully good cause?  "Tell me about the red-haired tiefling." (Fyllemen falls to thinking.) "A red-haired tiefling... I suppose, yes, there was one who came in, spent a long time looking around. He was a person of modest means, I could tell by his clothes, but he asked me to show him an aasimar-made chainmail — he certainly couldn't afford it. That's when I suspected that something was off. I checked everything after he left, but nothing was missing, and that put my mind at ease. I can't remember what he looked like. I didn't get a good look at his face. All I remember is that he was wrapped in a green cloak like he was freezing. But that's all I have." "That's it! With that description, we'll surely sniff him out! Come on, chief, back to sister Kerismei we go to have a good, long shifty at all my brothers and put all these clues together. Something tells me our traitor isn't gonna wriggle outta this one!"You can ask him about Woljiff and the woman but he has nothing of interest to add, so let's move on.  While we're sidequesting, I check out the supposedly haunted wine cellar.  It's a rather nasty flavor of haunting at that, wights are mean at these levels if you're not on Story. The loot is a few magic weapons of no interest to this party. So back to the hideout.  [Take a close look at the suspects] (The tieflings are antsy, shifting from one foot to the other. The dark-skinned tieflings are Varnir, Doffie, and Melroun, but only Melroun and Doffie have red hair. Doffie, Melroun, and Tavie have straight horns, but Tavie is female.) "I'm ready to give a name."The process of elimination is pretty simple: male tiefling with long horns, dark skin, red hair, and a green cloak. And if you recall the screenshot when I entered here which showed them, only one is wearing a green cloak.  "The traitor is Melroun."Personally, I'm starting to get a little leery of how both times I've been asked to find a traitor or criminal they're described as dark-skinned.    "You've got the Moon of the Abyss? Lemme look at it one more time! My whole life I've dreamt of holding it in my hands, if only for a second!" "He said when he got to the window display, the Moon was gone. He's lying, of course. He had time to hand the Moon off to the person who ordered it. Bloody cultists! Ah, I don't really give a toss. I'm just glad we got to the bottom of this." "What are you going to do now?" "Clear out of this place. The sooner, the better. This city's dying, I don't want to die with it." "This city would have already died, if not for the people who stood up to defend it with weapons in their hands." "So, defend it, I'm not stopping you. It's your city. But we've always been outsiders here — why would we fight for you now?" "Fine. Let's go." "Good decision. I don't plan to hang around long either." (Kerismei turns to leave.) "Sister!" (Woljif nervously bites his lip. His cheeks are flushed and his tail is swishing through the air.) "You forgot something." "What now? You should be happy to be alive." "An apology. You promised to apologize to me, loudly, in front of everyone. We're alone now, but I still want to hear it. Well?" "Ah. That." (Kerismei shrugs indifferently.) "So... sorry, I suppose, for being wrong about you, this time. Don't think that just because you didn't act like a jerk this one time that it cancels out the rest of your 'record.' I know all about you. Till next time, Woljif." (Woljif watches her go, his tail relaxing.) "...Better than nothing. Listen, chief, when you've got a spare minute, come see me, I've something I wanna discuss with you. But for now, let's get out of here. I don't like sitting below ground when the building above is ready to crash down on our heads."So a few notes: even if you name the wrong person, Woljiff has figured the clues out and names the correct person, and if you let him intimidate the shopkeeper he pulls the same shadow flame magic stunt he did when we first met. And if you're playing a tiefling, you can join the Family at this point and she'll give you a pointer to the thieflings who might be willing to stay and fight if you haven't rescued them already. And back at Defender's Heart...  "So you did betray the thieflings." "That cuts me deep, chief! You and I saw who the traitor was. It's just that when we robbed the shop, I went in first and took what I wanted. Nothin' wrong with that. (Woljif is silent for a moment, then a cunning grin crosses his face.) "Although, of course, I did think about hiding the Moon and just taking myself off somewhere warm when all this blows over; but only because I want to see the world! Is it a crime to want to travel, eh? Is that what counts for treachery these days?" "Why did you steal the Moon of the Abyss? You wouldn't have been able to sell it anyway." "Heh. Why, she asks..." (Woljif puts his hands in his pockets and looks away) "It's expensive. Pretty. And, you know, it's my amulet actually. Not meaning I stole it, but..." (He sighs.) "I mean, this is my inheritance. My grandma and I were poor, all we had was a jewelry box with the Moon in it. She used to store it under the floor in the basement, and she'd take it out sometimes just to look at it. She was always nicer when she had a few drinks in her, so I could ask her things then. One time I asked where she got it from, and she said it was from a demon. You know, the demon who was my grandfather. He said the Moon was to be passed down. My ma was good for nothin' and nobody, so that's why grandma decided to keep the amulet for me. She used to say it would be mine when I grew up. (Woljif scowls.) "But she couldn't wait until I grew up. She squandered my inheritance when she became a drunk. Took it to Fyllemen's shop and pawned it. He gave her some coppers for it, and she didn't even haggle, just grabbed them and ran back to the tavern before last orders. (Woljif looks away again.) "I've been going to Fyllemen's to look at the Moon ever since I was a kid. He'd chase me away, but I just kept going back, so eventually he gave up. He didn't skimp on security — the place was like a fortress, so he wasn't worried about a street rat like me pinching anything. Even when I got more skilled, I couldn't get any closer to it: one day I had no one to go with, another day there were only oafs who'd never stolen anything more than a church donation box. But when Kerismei had planned everything out, I realized I had a chance to get the Moon and move away from here. Maybe to Garund, I hear it's warmer there. I've stayed with the Family for too long..." [Good] "You deceived the people who considered you a friend. That's not the way you treat your friends."So it might seem a bit strange to harp on Woljiff's deceit at this point, but there's more going on here than the obvious. Woljiff is a tiefling, there's demonic blood in his veins, and the Moon of the Abyss is a demonic artifact given to a woman who had a child with a demon, from the demon in question. Woljiff is playing with grander and more dangerous powers than he appreciates right now, and this conversation is the first point where you can start to push him towards either outcome of his subplot: holding on to his humanity, or embracing his demonic birthright. The [Good] choice here is what starts to tilt Woljiff towards humanity, reminding him of his ties of friendship and family.  "Sister Kerismei used to say that us tieflings were one family, and you see how that turned out. And did you hear that excuse for an apology? I did the right thing. And I was right to want to run when I just planned on stealing the Moon of the Abyss. Everything turned out as it should. (Making sure no one is going to take the amulet from him, Woljif hides it under his shirt and folds his arms on his chest.) "Whatever you think, I owe you. I'm not just a thief, I have my own business selling things. Thanks to you, I'm still in the Family, and they, I mean we, have the black market sewn up in this city — it's a good way to sell valuables. So if you need anything, a scroll or something, just say the word. I have a little portal to our people in Nerosyan; you put a note there and you get what you need. I can't get you anything big, but what they do have is all high quality! Nothing's too good for you, chief. What's mine is yours. For a price, of course."For now, that's Woljiff's quest resolved and he now acts as an additional shop to boot. The Crimson Path (this update) Bandits 2 Cultists 3 Giant Centipede 1 Giant Flies 4 Giant Spiders 9 Wights 3 There were a lot of random encounters, mkay?
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Mar 14, 2024 19:01
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For the noble rear end in a top hat, it's not like owlcat has not had more than enough time to go back and edit that scene or remove it. They should be called out for lovely sexual abusive writing, especially in these times when fixing things like that is...fairly simple.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:14
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The other big benefit to doing Woljif's quest first is that there's no combat, so it's some experience and loot without risk, and at higher difficulties, one of the main strategies is risk avoidance. You do this, fight maybe one random encounter, and in return you get some nice experience, a new party member, and a weapon that can be put on any character. On top of that, Finnean is both 1) maybe one of the only ghost touch weapon at this stage, and 2) is cold iron, so he not only works good with any character, he in fact works fantastic on them. Woljif's betrayal here is also kind of interesting because his defense, while not rock solid, also still makes sense - he didn't endanger the rest of the group, he just tried to steal something for himself in advance, in a "no honor amongst thieves" sense. And that's largely the same attitude that Kerismei has towards the city at large - they're not siding with the cultists, but they're grabbing what they can and getting out before things get too hot. It sorta reflects on one of the major failings of the Crusade. All these people assumedly joined these cults for a reason, and when you have Halrun "yeah burn that child" on the side of the Crusades, or you're a discriminated against minority, it's easy to go with Team gently caress Those Guys. And even if you don't go full blown cultist, when the chips are down, you aren't gonna side with the people who have been giving you poo poo since day one. The failure of the Crusades isn't in the demonic invasion, it's in the thousands of myriad people who get so fed up with the Crusade that they either don't help or actively hurt the cause.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:21
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Woljiff learns the power of friendship... I mean uh, family!ProfessorCirno posted:It sorta reflects on one of the major failings of the Crusade. All these people assumedly joined these cults for a reason, and when you have Halrun "yeah burn that child" on the side of the Crusades, or you're a discriminated against minority, it's easy to go with Team gently caress Those Guys. And even if you don't go full blown cultist, when the chips are down, you aren't gonna side with the people who have been giving you poo poo since day one. The failure of the Crusades isn't in the demonic invasion, it's in the thousands of myriad people who get so fed up with the Crusade that they either don't help or actively hurt the cause. I love it when the bad guys call this out too. Especially when the "good" guys are showing the prejudices they claim to try and stamp out.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:22
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On the flip side, it also makes it easier to side with supposed 'bad guys' (or at least, morally neutral guys) whenever they choose to help the Crusade even when you don't find their reasons for doing so palatable, or even if you find their methods... disagreeable, as sometimes you can see where they're coming from. It really asks the player who they're willing to side with when the chips are down, and if moral principles are worth compromising if/when survival is at stake, which is a theme I for one eat up like candy. Also, while I like Finnean's questline, I do wish Owlcat had made it so that he scales as the game goes on. He's definitely handy now when most weapons you get are around the +1 to +2 level, but later on in the game most enemies might require +4 or +5 weapons with extra special properties, and poor Finnean just doesn't cut it. Hopefully you didn't waste feats specializing in nunchaku or the like!
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Mar 14, 2024 19:42
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You can take my weapon specialization (tongi) feat from my cold dead hands. Hands that, by the way, won't be holding many tongi throughout the game.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:45
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SettingSun posted:You can take my weapon specialization (tongi) feat from my cold dead hands. Hands that, by the way, won't be holding many tongi throughout the game. I think you can get a surprisingly good tongi in Act 5; I remember being utterly gobsmacked by both how good it was, and how it was it was a goddamn tongi. EDIT: I looked it up, and I hope it's not too spoilery to reveal its details: quote:This +5 axiomatic shocking burst tongi grants its wearer a +5 competence bonus to CMB. I don't really use combat maneuvers (level 9 caster supremacy, baby), so that's a bit of a wash for me personally, but Axiomatic and Shocking Burst? Yeah, those can be good, especially if you're able to bypass demonic electricity immunity.
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Mar 14, 2024 20:20
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Sorry Cyth. I didn't mean for my curiosity about the item to stir things up like that. You are right about the matter in question. Woljif always feels a bit odd to have as an addition to the party. He's not bad, sure, but the way he acts seems at odds with actually sticking around the group at the epicenter of the heaviest fighting. Then again, most video games gloss over the threats of mortal combat to people's fight or flight response. It'd be odd otherwise. Though in a way, the thieflings you recruited do address that a little better, but that's for a future update.
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Mar 14, 2024 20:24
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AtomikKrab posted:For the noble rear end in a top hat, it's not like owlcat has not had more than enough time to go back and edit that scene or remove it. They should be called out for lovely sexual abusive writing, especially in these times when fixing things like that is...fairly simple. lovely black comedy is something that sells, and unfortunately, we’re not done with it in this game yet. Probably best to keep the Evil characters out of the party if you don’t like them. I find some better written than others, but at the end of the day it’s good they all have replacements in good companions or mercenaries you can craft. I too will call Daeran out gladly for being a jerk- if the inept guards weren’t going along with it. I only don’t dismiss Daeran because it’s advantageous to keep him around for some crusade upgrades later. And it’s satisfying to convince him to be a better person. Or at least imagine I am. 😬 For the record, having been subjected to them enough times, I understand power dynamics just fine. I’m just pointing out we never see the guards in question- for all we know, they’re the type to live and let live, or more likely they’re the type to embrace ineptitude and debauchery- just like their boss. Which means I would never hire them as guards. And I would want Daeran in my party only if there was no other option or if I was the kind of person who likes guys like him. I normally find them tolerable at a distance. Let’s leave it at that. The Evil runs of this game are well written but that doesn’t mean I want to play them after watching LPs of them. I honestly enjoy the Good runs more. A few things I’ll say about the Thiefling quest- - if you call Keresmi out on her bad apology- and roll two successful Diplomacy checks with high difficulty for this point in the game - you can get access to the Thieflings’ Vault and get some extra money. But you have to do it before completing the quest. Otherwise they leave and clean their vault out on the way. - the quest has extra benefits for Tieflings, naturally- Keresmi can admit you to the gang and give you a ring with a trickery bonus that has extra bonuses for that race. You can also get the ring by killing her and the rest of the gang, but Woljif doesn’t like it if you do that and leaves the party. You also get a much lower XP award than the one for finishing the quest and it’s a messy combat. - if you don’t call Melrun out as the traitor, he escapes because he has extra time to trigger his teleport spell. Not as satisfying. Finnean is a fun addition to the game, but you will get better weapons later. In just about every type including Tongi if you know where to look. Ember’s nihilism is the only thing I don’t like about her. achtungnight fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 20:29
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Gun Jam posted:You think they're poorly written, or they are well written but their alignment's a deal breaker (not judging, mind)? Of the evil characters we've met so far: Cammy's definitely in the 'well written but a deal breaker' category for me. I think she's very one note, but an interesting exercise in subverting typical RPG expectations. Daeran, I loathe as a personality and have no strong feelings about the quality of his writing. I have never once played a game where I sided with Wendy, no particular opinions.
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Mar 14, 2024 20:41
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achtungnight posted:Ember’s nihilism is the only thing I don’t like about her. It's actually one of the things I find most appealing about Ember, to be honest. She knows the world is lovely, that everything's going to hell, and that everyone's most probably doomed- but does that mean she has to stop being optimistic, nice and just plain good? Heck no! It's an attitude that I find more and more appealing as time goes by, and I wish more people IRL were like this fictional elf girl. Cythereal posted:I have never once played a game where I sided with Wendy, no particular opinions. As someone who has almost always brought Wendy along (save one time when I was curious about Lann), the serious answer I can give is that her writing gets better as the game goes on, but oh boy does it start from a low place and take a while to get going, especially if you're playing a Good character. I also don't know if she gets a redemption arc if you don't romance her, and I can't bring myself not to v  v
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Mar 14, 2024 20:56
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CommissarMega posted:I also don't know if she gets a redemption arc if you don't romance her, and I can't bring myself not to v She does not. Wendy isn't the worst example in this game of a character where you only get their growth and character exploration if you romance her, but she's very much in that mold.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:01
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If you act optimistic and say you have the potential to change the world, and then accomplish it, well, you’re not a complete nihilist, I guess. I do appreciate that Ember is ultimately that way. 
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Mar 14, 2024 21:14
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achtungnight posted:Ember’s nihilism is the only thing I don’t like about her. Honestly, I think her "No one is going to save us, so time to roll up our sleeves and do it ourselves" attitude is an interesting twist on her otherwise waif-ish goody two shoes nature. She's also got a pretty accurate view of D&D deities being perfectly happy to let mortals do the work with a bit of cheerleading from the sidelines.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:17
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achtungnight posted:If you act optimistic and say you have the potential to change the world, and then accomplish it, well, you’re not a complete nihilist, I guess. I do appreciate that Ember is ultimately that way. Ember is more absurdist than nihilist.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:26
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Capfalcon posted:Honestly, I think her "No one is going to save us, so time to roll up our sleeves and do it ourselves" attitude is an interesting twist on her otherwise waif-ish goody two shoes nature. This is what actually makes me like Ember, it's an important additional layer to the character that pulls a lot of weight in making her not feel boring.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:29
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Cythereal posted:She does not. Wendy isn't the worst example in this game of a character where you only get their growth and character exploration if you romance her, but she's very much in that mold. Sad but not unsurprising, I guess. To be honest, I wouldn't have recruited Wendy in any of my playthroughs if I hasn't been spoiled by datamined dialogue during the beta that indicated that redemption was possible. RevolverDivider posted:This is what actually makes me like Ember, it's an important additional layer to the character that pulls a lot of weight in making her not feel boring. Exactly! Purity Sues are boring at best, vomit-inducing at most, but Ember's sheer determination to not let her situation and that of the world bring her down is damned admirable, and it's obvious even to most evil members of the party that she is someone to be respected; IIRC Wenduag acknowledges that Ember is not all she seems when they first meet in the Market Square, and later on she'll even call CamCam out on it, saying the latter should respect someone of Ember's strength. For Wenduag, that is very high praise!
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Mar 14, 2024 21:45
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I appreciate the idea that we can win the day because we have to.
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Mar 14, 2024 22:13
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Its admirably stoic in a way. You have to succeed, because there isn't really any other option in the end. To fail, to turn, or to die is to sign yourself and everything you care about to the worst fates imaginable. You fight and succeed, because to entertain any alternative is to fail in this scenario.
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Mar 14, 2024 22:33
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Drakenel posted:Woljif always feels a bit odd to have as an addition to the party. He's not bad, sure, but the way he acts seems at odds with actually sticking around the group at the epicenter of the heaviest fighting. Then again, most video games gloss over the threats of mortal combat to people's fight or flight response. It'd be odd otherwise. Though in a way, the thieflings you recruited do address that a little better, but that's for a future update. My read with Woljif is that he actually does understand loyalty to at least some degree, but also, we are, maybe weirdly, the eye of the storm. poo poo is going buck wild, but wherever we are is where it weirdly ends up being safest - because we're there to MAKE it safe. So, we're the boss (affectionate name), but also, we're the boss (keeps him safe). CommissarMega posted:On the flip side, it also makes it easier to side with supposed 'bad guys' (or at least, morally neutral guys) whenever they choose to help the Crusade even when you don't find their reasons for doing so palatable, or even if you find their methods... disagreeable, as sometimes you can see where they're coming from. It really asks the player who they're willing to side with when the chips are down, and if moral principles are worth compromising if/when survival is at stake, which is a theme I for one eat up like candy. We'll get into it more as things come up, but questions about "can evil defeat a greater evil? Can acts of horror end with something wonderful?" is a question the game plays with here and there. We've already seen a bit of that second one come up, as Cyth's mentioned. It's also a question (or questions) that the game doesn't give a singular answer to. Sometimes the answer is a resounding "No. You have only made things worse." ~-~ Beyond that, for Ember - as others have said, Ember's nihilism is, to me, one of the best parts. And in fact I wouldn't classify it as nihilism. Ember is hope personified, and part of that is the hope things will get better even when there's absolutely no reason to believe they could. It is, at least to my thinking, what actual optimism is. Optimism isn't whether the glass is half full or half empty. Optimism is believing that, not only can an empty glass be refilled, but that you and those around you can be the ones to fill it up, or even just start the process of filling it back up. Ember looks at this situation and knows, quite acutely, that by all accounts everything is already lost. And that doesn't matter. She's still going to believe in and fight for a better world, no matter how pointless or hopeless. People can still always be better. Anyone can still always be better. The gods haven't been helping us a ton so far, and Ember's response to that is - well, then the gods themselves can be better, too. For Wendy, I'm doing a m-m-m-mega hacked run atm with both Lann and Wendy, and like...yeah no there's no contest, Lann is 100% better written. I'd say only bring Wendy along if specifically you want that "redemption" regardless of how dumb you have to act about it and how many obviously evil things you have to overlook, or because you just cannot help but desire that spidercatussy. And it's a shame, because there are some kernals of good writing in Wendy, but...they are deep, and you gotta dig through quite a bit of poo poo to get to them. I get people who think Lann is "boring" (though I disagree) and I get people annoyed that Lann is more then a bit pushy about romances (no defenses there, calm down dude), but I enjoy his overall narrative a whole lot, and think he's by far the better choice.
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Mar 14, 2024 22:44
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You can tell who got the most attention during development and who was added in as an afterthought. Wendaug feel like somebody who was added in development late because they needed a branching path at the start of the game. She also makes me feel kind of uncomfortable with her subservient attitude. I won't spoil things now, but there's a few scenes with her in act 3 that kind of threw me off.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:09
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ProfessorCirno posted:I'd say only bring Wendy along if specifically you want that "redemption" regardless of how dumb you have to act about it and how many obviously evil things you have to overlook, or because you just cannot help but desire that spidercatussy.  Vargatron posted:You can tell who got the most attention during development and who was added in as an afterthought. Wendaug feel like somebody who was added in development late because they needed a branching path at the start of the game. She also makes me feel kind of uncomfortable with her subservient attitude. I won't spoil things now, but there's a few scenes with her in act 3 that kind of threw me off. Yeah, in the AP Lann was the most obvious choice for a party member, and odds are Owlcat realized quite late that most of their audience would go for the hot monstergirl, and yeah, I agree with her whole 'sincerely subservient' thing being odd. Sure, it's an extension of her might-makes-right philosophy (one thing I can't fault Wenduag for, she's ideologically consistent), but it does get weird if you prefer more egalitarian relationships, as well as raising the question of whether or not you're being a bad partner by imposing egalitarianism on her, which is a  of a concept to think about. Still though, I appreciate that her romance needs the player to work at it, and that making things work sometimes means meeting her halfway; if that makes anyone reading this uncomfortable, I hope I don't come across as saying "You're missing out, sheeple, hurr", but to be honest, I haven't seen a romance written like this since BG2's Viconia (and Jaheira to a lesser extent). Most player-centric video game romances that I've experienced revolve around the player and generally-acceptable-behaviour NPC agreeing with each other until it's bonetime- meanwhile here you and Wendy are making each other uncomfortable with your varied viewpoints (assuming, of course, a Good-aligned PC).
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Mar 14, 2024 23:24
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I tried the Wendy romance because I didn't like Lann and hoped she was different. She was, but it still wasn't enjoyable for me. Ultimately, I would pick someone else. I agree she is attractive. I might like her better if they didn't make her a branching path from Lann and wrote her to remain loyal to the player over herself- but there isn't a mod for that outside my imagination. 
achtungnight fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 23:37
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I hope they update the WOTR AP for PF2E because I would like to run it with my tabletop friends. We've actually just started a Kingmaker campaign, so I think it would be cool to do Wrath if we ever finish it.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:38
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e: nevermind
Rogue AI Goddess fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 00:14
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If this is a reference to something I don't get it and you have Yua's name wrong.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:25
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It’s a reference to if the protagonist in Disco Elysium decides to internalize Communism.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:31
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Quackles posted:It’s a reference to if the protagonist in Disco Elysium decides to internalize Communism. That would do it, never had any interest in that game.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:48
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:e: nevermind I liked it!
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Mar 15, 2024 01:30
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Disco Elysium is still one of the best narratives in the history of video games so I appreciate any reason to think about it.
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Mar 15, 2024 01:39
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RevolverDivider posted:Disco Elysium is still one of the best narratives in the history of video games so I appreciate any reason to think about it. Eh, I thought WotR had a more interesting story.
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Mar 15, 2024 01:42
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I like WotR a lot but it's not even remotely on the same level of writing or narrative quality as Disco. But this isn't the thread to really dig into that.
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Mar 15, 2024 02:13
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achtungnight posted:Eh, I thought WotR had a more interesting story. That's certainly an opinion.
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Mar 15, 2024 02:42
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I don't mind a joke, even if it's referring to a game I have never played and will never play, but knock it off comparing the two. They're wildly different games in fundamentally different genres with accordingly different mechanics and expectations of narrative.
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Mar 15, 2024 02:58
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SettingSun posted:You can take my weapon specialization (tongi) feat from my cold dead hands. Hands that, by the way, won't be holding many tongi throughout the game. There's something just lovely about finding an exotic weapon that ends up being really good. My first run of the Midnight Isles I ended up rolling with a Barbarian who specialised in nunchaku, it's just something that you never get to do normally that ends up incredibly fun. It's sure as hell not optimal but who cares. Honestly I do love Ember's optimism sprouting from nihilism, you'd also think that the gods just don't give a gently caress if you lived on the borders of that region and that the only thing you have is yourself. It's just that it's expressed in such a different way with Ember that her willingness to see that anyone can be redeemed is treated as a strength instead of something that would be used by the writers to be cruel to her. Testekill fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 03:59
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