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Saladman posted:Sure, but personally I’m not convinced that "Ottoman Empire is Rome" line of thinking, and I don’t think many other people do either. Of course the East-West break was more gradual, but Constantinople in 800 AD was ethnically, linguistically, geographically, and culturally descended from a different civilization than that of Ancient/Imperial Rome, even if culturally they were essentially cousins. nah
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Mar 14, 2024 14:03
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 Just a prank bro, I have no strong opinions one way or the other, on what is essentially a semantic debate. I think I'd actually be more likely to take issue with the 'Empire' part. 'City-state' is probably a more apt descriptor. It's why I'm sceptical of that map that was posted earlier showing that Central Greece etc. were part of the Roman Empire for five billion years, since the (Eastern) Roman/Byzantine Empire did not actually control most of what is now Greece for much of its existence.
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Mar 14, 2024 14:14
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Saladman posted:Sure, but personally I’m not convinced that "Ottoman Empire is Rome" line of thinking, and I don’t think many other people do either. Of course the East-West break was more gradual, but Constantinople in 800 AD was ethnically, linguistically, geographically, and culturally descended from a different civilization than that of Ancient/Imperial Rome, even if culturally they were essentially cousins. Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:lots of people are wrong about things
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Mar 14, 2024 14:39
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Latinoamerica + Guinea Equaltorial + Spain + Filipinas = Latin Empire
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Mar 14, 2024 14:45
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𝐀𝐕𝐄 𝐎𝐁𝐈𝐀𝐍𝐆
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Mar 14, 2024 14:52
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Hmm. Latin Philippines? +: The name of the country, people's last names, Catholic majority -: Tagalog and not Spanish is the lingua franca, even besides that English is more widely studied and known than Spanish, so heavily influenced by the United States that it's basically an American protectorate I rate this claim 'half true', maybe they could have associate status in the Latin Empire.
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Mar 14, 2024 14:53
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Phlegmish posted:Hmm. Latin Philippines? How popular is Dragon Ball Z?
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Mar 14, 2024 14:57
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I've been to the Philippines and asked people to try and practice my terrible Spanish, and everyone was like "lol lmao why the hell would I know Spanish?" According to Wikipedia it's 400k Spanish speakers, mostly learned as a second language, in a population of 114 million people.
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Mar 14, 2024 15:03
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I would suggest the next one should be Final Rome but within a decade we'd be on Final Rome XIII-2 Caligula's Return
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Mar 14, 2024 15:04
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Phlegmish posted:I think I'd actually be more likely to take issue with the 'Empire' part. 'City-state' is probably a more apt descriptor. It's why I'm sceptical of that map that was posted earlier showing that Central Greece etc. were part of the Roman Empire for five billion years, since the (Eastern) Roman/Byzantine Empire did not actually control most of what is now Greece for much of its existence. This is incorrect. The empire was not reduced to anything close to a city-state until the very end, and modern Greece was held for most of the state's existence. There is a case to be made that empire is not an apt description because empires rule over conquered foreign peoples, and the medieval Roman state became something similar to a modern nation-state. Anthony Kaldellis goes into depth on this in Romanland. The Roman empire was the largest, richest, most powerful state in Europe for most of the middle ages. Even after it would get smacked down hard, they had an incredible ability to come back. Until the last time anyway. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 16:15
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and the last time they basically got menendezed by venice. The Byzantine Republic is also a good read
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Mar 14, 2024 16:53
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Saladman posted:Sure, but personally I’m not convinced that "Ottoman Empire is Rome" line of thinking, and I don’t think many other people do either. Of course the East-West break was more gradual, but Constantinople in 800 AD was ethnically, linguistically, geographically, and culturally descended from a different civilization than that of Ancient/Imperial Rome, even if culturally they were essentially cousins. Tell me the ways in which the Empire of 800 AD was different from the Empire of 375 AD. It is geographically smaller, and the aristocrats generally speak Greek, rather than both Latin and Greek, but a "different civilization" this does not make, especially when the cultural self-identification has not changed (within the core areas of the later Empire).
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Mar 14, 2024 17:37
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Every time the capital changes, it's a new nation. This is why the EU has not managed to become a coherent nation. Also handily explains that the USSR is a different nation than tsarist Russia
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Mar 14, 2024 17:42
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Giving this whole discussion a think, I realize we're severely under-counting the Romes of the western branch. There's Milan, Ravenna, Aachen, a bunch of shorter term Romes in the HRE, Prague, Vienna, then Paris immediately followed by London, followed by Washington. That's 9 Romes at least, and likely far more.
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Mar 14, 2024 17:47
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Grand Fromage posted:This is incorrect. The empire was not reduced to anything close to a city-state until the very end, and modern Greece was held for most of the state's existence. There's a case to be made about the times when the Empire lost effective control of Thessaly and Macedonia, like during the Slavic migrations or during the First Bulgarian Empire. Modern Greece was a backwater region in the period and the border there was fluid. But even accounting for that it would still add up to over 1000 years, maybe 1200, i haven't counted. Attica and the Peloponnese on the other hand only slipped out of control in the aftermath of the 4th crusade. VVV I meant temporarily Frionnel fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 18:00
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After the restoration, Morea/the Peloponnese remained with the Empire until the end and then some, falling to the Ottomans in 1460.
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Mar 14, 2024 18:15
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Frionnel posted:There's a case to be made about the times when the Empire lost effective control of Thessaly and Macedonia, like during the Slavic migrations or during the First Bulgarian Empire. Modern Greece was a backwater region in the period and the border there was fluid. But even accounting for that it would still add up to over 1000 years, maybe 1200, i haven't counted. Attica and the Peloponnese on the other hand only slipped out of control in the aftermath of the 4th crusade. That's why I said most. They do lose control over Greece a few times and retake it. That makes me wonder if there's any part of the eastern empire that was not lost at some point, there's nothing I can think of offhand since they even get booted out of Constantinople once before the end. Maybe some Aegean islands nobody could be bothered with.
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Mar 14, 2024 18:33
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Grand Fromage posted:That's why I said most. They do lose control over Greece a few times and retake it. That makes me wonder if there's any part of the eastern empire that was not lost at some point, there's nothing I can think of offhand since they even get booted out of Constantinople once before the end. Maybe some Aegean islands nobody could be bothered with. Turns out Lesbos is Rome
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Mar 14, 2024 18:53
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Turns out Trebizond was the true Rome all along.
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Mar 14, 2024 19:13
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Byzantine posted:Turns out Lesbos is Rome I read an anecdote from when the modern Greek state was expanding into the Aegean islands as the Ottoman Empire shrank. The government would send people out to theses small islands to inform them that they were now Greek instead of ottoman - and just get confusion in return. Those islanders didn't care who these Greeks were. They were Romanoi.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:01
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Perhaps we are all the true Rome awaiting the restoration of universal empire. 
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Mar 14, 2024 21:44
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Byzantine posted:Turns out Lesbos is Rome This... this is a Rome I can believe in.
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Mar 14, 2024 22:52
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Maybe the real Rome was denarii we made along the way
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Mar 14, 2024 23:13
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Mar 15, 2024 00:30
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♫ Rome if you want to Rome around the world ♪
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Mar 15, 2024 00:31
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a river you shouldn't cross at risk of great political or personal strife once one of the most populous cities in the region, reduced through depredation and plunder surrounded by hills but definitely not mountains buddy, rome is very clearly the cleveland, ohio Tree Goat fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 01:13
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Tree Goat posted:a river you shouldn't cross at risk of great political or personal strife Wrong as gently caress. Rome, Ohio is on the exact opposite of the state.  Cleveland is, if anything, Constantinople. Everyone keeps thinking it's the king of cities even though it keeps catching on fire every few years.
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Mar 15, 2024 01:27
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Powered Descent posted:♫ Rome if you want to The B-52's hailed from Athens, Georgia... 
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Mar 15, 2024 02:00
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Tree Goat posted:a river you shouldn't cross at risk of great political or personal strife the east side/west side difference really hasn’t meant much since they built the interstates
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Mar 15, 2024 02:28
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soviet elsa posted:Rome died when everyone started wearing pants. the spirit of rome lives on in the heart of everyone who works from home Private Speech posted:the city of Rome went from having more than a million people to less than twenty thousand living among the ruins this is fuckin nutso. postapocalyptic as hell
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Mar 15, 2024 02:30
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redleader posted:the spirit of rome lives on in the heart of everyone who works from home Bright side is it’s the reason we still have all those cool archaeological sites. A population site remaining busy usually means monuments getting pillaged for stone and building materials
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Mar 15, 2024 02:36
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it helps that the pope was always there and kept a lot of the cool poo poo for himself
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Mar 15, 2024 02:37
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redleader posted:this is fuckin nutso. postapocalyptic as hell It was a remarkable quick process since Rome still had 200,000+ people living in it around 500 and then was left with a tenth of that after the Gothic War and Plague of Justinian.
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Mar 15, 2024 03:05
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 Map showing all countries with a territory dispute...and inventing a new one with regard to Svalbard.
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Mar 15, 2024 06:22
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I have no idea what the Czech one is supposed to be, there could be one with Poland at a stretch maybe but that is not coloured in? I can't think of anything with Slovakia and Wikipedia is no help either.
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Mar 15, 2024 06:28
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That map needs a date. I'm pretty sure the Danish dispute was our lengthy war with Canada, which was resolved last year I think. Unless you want to count my claim on "Southern Sweden". In a couple of years, we're gonna have a dispute over Greenland with USA, but that's all hypothetical right now
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Mar 15, 2024 06:45
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BonHair posted:That map needs a date. I'm pretty sure the Danish dispute was our lengthy war with Canada, which was resolved last year I think.
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Mar 15, 2024 06:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:We have a disputes with both Sweden and Germany. Actual, serious disputes? Where and why? I mean, aside from Hamburg being rightful Danish clay and poo poo. I think the Swedish border is quite clear by post-Napoleonic design.
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Mar 15, 2024 06:56
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i think its the pink ones that have territorial disputes
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Mar 15, 2024 07:15
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Belgium should be coloured in because we have massive territorial disputes with ourselves.
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Mar 15, 2024 08:16
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