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fatherboxx)
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Charliegrs posted:And I dont know why people are making fun of the ATVs (which for some reason are being called golf carts) ATVs are in use by tons of militaries throughout the world. Especially by special operations forces. Ok, fine, I'll bite. Here's one of the things allegedly used by Russian forces:  There's pictures and video and poo poo on Twitter and Reddit and most likely Telegram, no I haven't watched the videos and if you want links then gently caress you. Now I don't actually know what ATVs are exactly and what golf carts look like exactly, but here's an image search for each:   We report - you decide! Or something. (I don't know which category the thing should be in.) Oh there was some talk about these vehicles on Denys Davydov's video on Youtube a few days or weeks back when he was talking about recent battles near Robotyne. I'm not going to give a direct link to that either since in his videos he often mentions the possibility that people may or may not have died in a war (he doesn't show any of that, I think, but still).
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Mar 14, 2024 21:09
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jaete posted:Ok, fine, I'll bite. It's a UTV/SxS which is basically a slightly less capable ATV with higher crew capacity, more storage, and higher clearence. We use em for archaeological survey because they can get places trucks cant. The vast majority of the time when people talk about ATVs they are talking about quads though other things can fall into it. That google image search for an ATV is loving laughable because while a Sherp is definitely an all terrain vehicle its absolutely what is not being discussed when folks talk about ATVs and is more of a UTV. Ditto with much of those tread things. If you are going to be sassy, particularly in DnD, you should probably look up your terms before you throw down. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 21:11
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jaete posted:Ok, fine, I'll bite. Are we sure these are Chinese? I’ve seen loads similar around Dubai and Abu Dhabi - sans camo however.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:43
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Cabal Ties posted:Are we sure these are Chinese? I’ve seen loads similar around Dubai and Abu Dhabi - sans camo however. Its a Odes Desertcross UTV, manufactured in China. I dont know the year of the one in the photo but it appears similar to the one linked below. https://www.pbopowersports.com/shop/utv/2022-odes-desertcross-1000-3-passenger/ Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 21:46
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Using ATVs to move around troops, small items and doing patrols isn't stupid, or hit-and-run side strikes with AT isn't stupid. Using them on assault to enemy positions would be. However, each one I have seen on video material on social media has been just driving around getting droned out of nowhere, or driving to a mine, or getting hit by artillery strike. I hate defending Russians as a principle but so far I haven't seen them being *that* stupid with ATV/UTVs.
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Mar 14, 2024 21:53
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jaete posted:Ok, fine, I'll bite. That looks like the kind that uses a scooter engine. There is a huge gap in capability between those and name brand ATV/UTVs, they're much closer to a golf cart than a Polaris ranger for example.
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Mar 14, 2024 22:04
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SpeedFreek posted:That looks like the kind that uses a scooter engine. There is a huge gap in capability between those and name brand ATV/UTVs, they're much closer to a golf cart than a Polaris ranger for example. You aren't ripping down lovely backwoods "roads" if it can go 30 mph its going fast enough. Edit: It has similar technical specs engine wise to a 2020 Polaris Ranger. Which it is overall very similar too. They are both ~1000 cc 4-stroke twin cylinder engines, have 800-1000 pounds box capacity, 3 seaters, 12-12.5 inches of clearence, etc. There are diffrences, the Odes is larger, has a higher wheel base, and significantly shitter tow capacity than the Polaris. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 22:08
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The point being we should probably not draw conclusions from Reddit combat clips of people driving UTV/ATVs on a battlefield devoid of any other context and say that Russian is making frontal assaults with golf carts as a part of their doctrine. It minimizes the very difficult situation Ukraine finds itself in and how much support they are going to need to turn things around.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:05
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Speaking of support for Ukraine, isn't there a bill that's being forced in the House that Johnson can't stop? What's going on with that? How good are the chances that Ukraine funding gets passed like this?
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Mar 14, 2024 23:08
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Popete posted:The point being we should probably not draw conclusions from Reddit combat clips of people driving UTV/ATVs on a battlefield devoid of any other context and say that Russian is making frontal assaults with golf carts as a part of their doctrine. I think it's also just sloppy and demonstrative of a lack of critical thinking skills. People are too eager to believe everything they hear that paints Russia in a bad light even when literally two minutes of google searching can disprove the claim. Hell, some people literally just doubled down on it instead of doing any research. Like, I'm not a UTV mechanic/salesman. I operate one every once in a while for work. But the information on the exact make and model of the UTV was readily avaliable with like 2 minutes of searching. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 23:20
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It’s an armored golf cart you see these at the beach and the golf course. Sans camo and plating. Imagine seriously rolling into a front line in this thing. Does it have an ice box within reach? Used for medical supplies I suppose?
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Mar 14, 2024 23:30
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Popete posted:The point being we should probably not draw conclusions from Reddit combat clips of people driving UTV/ATVs on a battlefield devoid of any other context and say that Russian is making frontal assaults with golf carts as a part of their doctrine. I'm not exactly sure if haddadem is saying y'know, literally attacking a trench head on with a golf cart, it seems to me like they were just being dramatic to make their point. Like the usage of such light vehicles near the point of contact with the enemy, is a sign of Russia's deteriorating situation in regards to their deployment of vehicles that would be better suited for the role in those conditions, or a lack of discipline and training to avoid using them in such dangerous conditions?
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Mar 14, 2024 23:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not exactly sure if haddadem is saying y'know, literally attacking a trench head on with a golf cart, it seems to me like they were just being dramatic to make their point. Like the usage of such light vehicles near the point of contact with the enemy, is a sign of Russia's deteriorating situation in regards to their deployment of vehicles that would be better suited for the role in those conditions, or a lack of discipline and training to avoid using them in such dangerous conditions? I haven't watched the videos but if Der Khyes experince with said videos is accurate then I'd say the use cases have been perfectly valid, which is the transportion if small numbers of troops or equipment in areas that arn't in the middle of a firefight or whatever. Hitting a mine, getting droned, or getting hit by an artillery shell is going to gently caress up most things. A humvee is going to get pretty hosed up too as an example.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:40
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Telsa Cola posted:I haven't watched the videos but if Der Khyes experince with said vehicles is accurate then I'd say the use cases have been perfectly valid, which is the transportion if small numbers of troops or equipment in areas that arn't in the middle of a firefight or whatever. I mean, its not to say there aren't valid use cases; but if there's a serious non-trivial risk of those things (in that it seems like it keeps happening) then you probably should be using something safer; and if they aren't then that's probably because they can't.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:42
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Raenir Salazar posted:I mean, its not to say there aren't valid use cases; but if there's a serious non-trivial risk of those things (in that it seems like it keeps happening) then you probably should be using something safer; and if they aren't then that's probably because they can't. What do you think would be appropriate to transport a small scouting squad, in an area without active enemy contact, that would also hold up to a 155 mm shell. Cause a bmp is still going to eat poo poo, is a bigger, louder target, and is more likely to get stuck. A UTV has the best quality imo, in that its small and light and thus has a higher potential to go undetected. A mine, a drone, or an artillery shell is going to gently caress up anything that it hits that Russians (and let's be honest here, most nations) are likely to deploy for backcountry reconnaissance, medevac, supply work, so going undetected and being able to access a wider variety of routes IS the safest option. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 23:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not exactly sure if haddadem is saying y'know, literally attacking a trench head on with a golf cart, it seems to me like they were just being dramatic to make their point. Like the usage of such light vehicles near the point of contact with the enemy, is a sign of Russia's deteriorating situation in regards to their deployment of vehicles that would be better suited for the role in those conditions, or a lack of discipline and training to avoid using them in such dangerous conditions? haddedam posted:Frontal assaults with chinese golf karts, MTLB, ww2 tanks and downgraded electronics on """""""newly manufactured""""" tanks does not scream "russia is an industrial powerhouse that is ontop of the ball and is ready and capable of easily wiping ukraine and baltics" Yes this is probably some degree of hyperbolic and I don't mean to particularly pick just on haddedam but you see this come up from time to time. It paints a picture of Russia as scraping the bottom of the barrel and clownishly incompetent. Well I do think there is some truth to that (especially their initial invasion being incompetent and we know they are having to refurbish older and older equipment) they are proving to be very difficult for Ukraine to beat which means that no they probably aren't routinely making frontal assaults with golf carts or engaging T-55's against more modern tanks. Have any of those things ever happened? Idk it's possible, a battlefield as large as Ukraine there is probably some very one sided confrontations or ad-hoc solutions that come up in the moment and are then captured and shared via social media. But remember it serves a propaganda purpose to show the Russians as weak and incompetent, I wouldn't draw any larger conclusions from random usually context-less combat footage seen on Reddit/Telegram.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:45
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This is a very stupid argument. These vehicles are used for transport/resupply purposes near the front, and they're excellent at their job. Many of the Ukrainian wounded are being transported in very similar all-terrain atv/golf cart/whatever, there is no shortage of footage. That was a recent video of one such vehicle being made autonomous or remote control or something.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:45
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not exactly sure if haddadem is saying y'know, literally attacking a trench head on with a golf cart, it seems to me like they were just being dramatic to make their point. Like the usage of such light vehicles near the point of contact with the enemy, is a sign of Russia's deteriorating situation in regards to their deployment of vehicles that would be better suited for the role in those conditions, or a lack of discipline and training to avoid using them in such dangerous conditions? I saw an interview with a DPR guy recently who was riding around on one of those electric unicycle things and he was talking about how he preferred using it to get to the front and then back instead of driving inside a larger conventional vehicle because if you are using something smaller and more mobile you can hear the drone over-head and react to / evade the grenade it tries to drop on you (if it even bothers targeting some dude riding around on an electric unicycle in the first place). If you're inside a car or something heavier they have no idea if a drone is 30 feet above them until after the bomb explodes or the thing crashes into the front windshield. It seems like for the Russians at least their primary concern when around the front is from the drones which are reported to be just about the only thing that Ukraine still has in abundance so I can see a world in which smaller, quicker and more evasive vehicles are the choice for moving around in daylight. The closest thing to what you are describing that I've seen is one clip from around Robotyne where there were like 3 or 4 Russians zipping around on an ATV through the fields in no-man's land and they rolled right up on what was purportedly a Ukrainian dugout in a tree line, threw some grenades and fired their weapons a bit and then got back on the ATV and (apparently) zoomed on out. That looked to me more like a situational thing that arose as an option in that particular instance for attacking an isolated Ukrainian position rather than some wide-spread tactic that was adopted in mass by the Russian army.
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Mar 14, 2024 23:50
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Telsa Cola posted:What do you think would be appropriate to transport a small scouting squad, in an area without active enemy contact, that would also hold up to a 155 mm shell. I'm pretty sure a near miss from a 155mm shell is a hell of a lot more likely to be survivable inside a BMP than in a ATV. Nitrox posted:This is a very stupid argument. These vehicles are used for transport/resupply purposes near the front, and they're excellent at their job. Many of the Ukrainian wounded are being transported in very similar all-terrain atv/golf cart/whatever, there is no shortage of footage. That was a recent video of one such vehicle being made autonomous or remote control or something. I think the argument goes that it reflects poorly on the alleged "Second Strongest Army" if it is forced to rely on these; while it's a lot more understandable and reasonable for Ukraine, which is just a small country without any claims of being a Great Power. Popete posted:Yes this is probably some degree of hyperbolic and I don't mean to particularly pick just on haddedam but you see this come up from time to time. It paints a picture of Russia as scraping the bottom of the barrel and clownishly incompetent. Well I do think there is some truth to that (especially their initial invasion being incompetent and we know they are having to refurbish older and older equipment) they are proving to be very difficult for Ukraine to beat which means that no they probably aren't routinely making frontal assaults with golf carts or engaging T-55's against more modern tanks. Yeah on the one hand the cold hard fact is that even if its forced to do so, such acts are presumably still letting Russia keep the war going; that the way its doing so probably means it won't be any condition to roll immediately into Poland next is little comfort to Ukraine right now.  That being said eeeeeh, I'm not exactly sure what the propaganda purpose would be here; I don't think it helps Ukraine acquire more equipment and I'm not sure if it really helps boost morale for troops on the ground; maybe its relevant to online cheer leaders on either side of the fence but that isn't really relevant to the facts on the ground. Starsfan posted:I saw an interview with a DPR guy recently who was riding around on one of those electric unicycle things and he was talking about how he preferred using it to get to the front and then back instead of driving inside a larger conventional vehicle because if you are using something smaller and more mobile you can hear the drone over-head and react to / evade the grenade it tries to drop on you (if it even bothers targeting some dude riding around on an electric unicycle in the first place). If you're inside a car or something heavier they have no idea if a drone is 30 feet above them until after the bomb explodes or the thing crashes into the front windshield. I suspect that this is about as convincing as Japanese Zero pilots who claim that wearing the parachuts slowed down their reflexes. Maybe there's a tiny window of oppurtunity where its helpful, but the reality is its a lot of people dying in circumstances who wouldn't be if it was the US Army in the same situation and ultimately is just a psychological thing, like the anti-javalin cages that lacked any effectiveness but felt safer to have, or putting sandbags, wood and/or concrete on tanks in WW2. We ultimately don't have the facts to know if this is just a niche circumstance that happened to get caught on video or a regular thing, but if it is a regular thing then that says what it says.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm pretty sure a near miss from a 155mm shell is a hell of a lot more likely to be survivable inside a BMP than in a ATV. If a reconnaissance, resupply, or medevac mission is detected and enaged things have already gone hilariously badly for it. Using a small vehicle like a UTV means you are less likely to get detected. The US is looking at electric dirt bikes and already does deploy dirt bikes for these reasons. The US military also utilizes quads and UTVs in similar scenarios, I'm not really sure you know what you are talking about. The reality of the things is you don't have infinite BMPs/Humvees/Bradleys to throw at things, and the terrain isn't always great for large vehicle. Small vehicles have their place. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 00:07
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Telsa Cola posted:If a reconnaissance, resupply, or medevac mission is detected and enaged things have already gone hilariously badly for it. Using a small vehicle like a UTV means you are less likely to get detected. The US is looking at electric dirt bikes and already does deploy dirt bikes for these reasons. Right, not disagreeing with this, the presumption though is that generally the US has the ability to weigh the risks vs rewards regarding the situation and various factors of any particular mission and is vastly more likely than not to pick the right equipment for that mission; while presumably with RuAF based on everything we've seen they don't get that benefit of the doubt.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:18
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Raenir Salazar posted:Right, not disagreeing with this, the presumption though is that generally the US has the ability to weigh the risks vs rewards regarding the situation and various factors of any particular mission and is vastly more likely than not to pick the right equipment for that mission; while presumably with RuAF based on everything we've seen they don't get that benefit of the doubt. And I/we are saying that the RuAF did indeed make the right choices in regards to equipment selection for the jobs the destroyed vehicles appeared to be doing. Like no, using these as your main troop transportation for assaulting a position is dumb. I 100% agree with that and thats what you use BMPs for. But as far as Im aware theres no evidence to support the fact that thats what they are doing. Edit: I actually took a look at some articles and they have been using UTVs to bring up troops to engagements which, as I agreed with above, is a dumb thing to do. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...-and-desperate/ Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 00:22
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small butter posted:Speaking of support for Ukraine, isn't there a bill that's being forced in the House that Johnson can't stop? What's going on with that? How good are the chances that Ukraine funding gets passed like this? The last succesful discharge petition was in 2015. However, if it gets enough support, Johnson might just give up and formally bring the vote to the floor without the discharge petition being officially successful.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:44
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DTurtle posted:The discharge petition for the Senate package was formally introduced in the House on Thursday and has received the support of 177 out of 218 Representatives needed. A second discharge petition for a bill including border stuff was also introduced and has received the support of 14 Representatives so far. Just 177? Why wouldn't all Democrats be on board?
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Mar 15, 2024 02:44
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small butter posted:Just 177? Why wouldn't all Democrats be on board? Israel funding.
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Mar 15, 2024 02:47
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OddObserver posted:Israel funding. Thanks. I thought that the discharge petition was just for Ukraine. Should have been that way and I think at least a handful of Republicans would have been on board.
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Mar 15, 2024 02:51
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So whats a realistic timeline on ukraine aid then? After the election?
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Mar 15, 2024 11:28
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https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1768203445834518845 i am sorta curious what made her 180 this much. easy answer would be "cheque bounced" but i am curious if its a mix of some new intel mixed with german flubbing a bunch and france seeing an opertunity to lead mixed with Russia being a detriment to parts of the europian right now.
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Mar 15, 2024 13:30
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The answer is that she's expecting to win the elections and wants to be seen as presidential and serious Ultimately once elected, the Russians won't have leverage over her so unless she's a true believer, there's no reason she should abandon Ukraine.
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Mar 15, 2024 13:38
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1768203445834518845 It's to win the election. She'll undoubtedly turn her back if/when she wins.
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Mar 15, 2024 13:39
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Dapper_Swindler posted:https://twitter.com/United24media/status/1768203445834518845 Yeah, it's about appearing presentable to moderate voters for the next election. She can smell a serious chance at victory. When the AfD recently got caught holding a secret Wannsee conference 2.0 on the final solution of the immigrant question and how to organize the camps, she shockingly distanced herself from the AfD and immigrant deportations lol
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Mar 15, 2024 14:00
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GABA ghoul posted:Yeah, it's about appearing presentable to moderate voters for the next election. She can smell a serious chance at victory. When the AfD recently got caught holding a secret Wannsee conference 2.0 on the final solution of the immigrant question and how to organize the camps, she shockingly distanced herself from the AfD and immigrant deportations lol your all probably. I was just curious because i dont follow french politics much and it seemed like a pretty big 180. i still wouldnt be shocked if russias money isnt worth what it once was in some right wing circles.
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Mar 15, 2024 14:25
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Maybe now that Macron went from "we need to talk with Putin" to "the EU needs to arm themselves up to kick Putin's rear end if neccessary" and is universally praised for doing so, she realized that going against that will not buy her any favors, so she changes direction to this.
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Mar 15, 2024 15:10
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steinrokkan posted:The answer is that she's expecting to win the elections and wants to be seen as presidential and serious Pook Good Mook posted:It's to win the election. She'll undoubtedly turn her back if/when she wins. I love this forum.
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Mar 15, 2024 15:27
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I love this forum. Third option - she has started to believe the Russian claims about the Nazis and thinks it's cool
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Mar 15, 2024 15:28
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mawarannahr posted:Third option - she has started to believe the Russian claims about the Nazis and thinks it's cool The false Russian claims of course, she'll be very disappointed when she finds out.
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Mar 15, 2024 17:49
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eu players keep discussing building factories in ukraine as part of solving the procurement deficiencies. it's really not clear to me why this is a major issue that keeps coming up, what's the benefit given how easy importing it is to import through eu/Ukraine land border and relative safety of industry under NATO protection? cheaper labor, propping up local economy, some transport bottleneck I'm missing? also eu is now targeting annual production rate of 1.7 million shells by end of year. sure would be nice if they could actually deliver this time
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Mar 15, 2024 20:39
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:eu players keep discussing building factories in ukraine as part of solving the procurement deficiencies. it's really not clear to me why this is a major issue that keeps coming up, what's the benefit given how easy importing it is to import through eu/Ukraine land border and relative safety of industry under NATO protection? cheaper labor, propping up local economy, some transport bottleneck I'm missing? I would guess that increasing capacity requires building another factory regardless, so they may as well build it in Ukraine to give them the economic benefit of the construction and production.
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Mar 15, 2024 20:41
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Opening new production facilities is a long process in any case, we are talking of time frames where war might have ended and rebuilding has started, including rebuilding of Ukraine's domestic industries.
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Mar 15, 2024 20:44
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:eu players keep discussing building factories in ukraine as part of solving the procurement deficiencies. it's really not clear to me why this is a major issue that keeps coming up, what's the benefit given how easy importing it is to import through eu/Ukraine land border and relative safety of industry under NATO protection? cheaper labor, propping up local economy, some transport bottleneck I'm missing? Just whiteboarding, but transportation through-put is sort of zero-sum. You can increase it, of course, but you only have as much as you have and anything you're shipping in comes at the cost of shipping in other stuff. It's not that it's hard to ship in artillery shells (hypothetical, extent ones) but you can only have so many traincars/trucks on the same track/road at the same time and that's a [cubic volume of shells] worth of space you can't use for other needs. Also shipping stuff does have a cost and not having that cost is nice, in and of itself. But again, I'm doing this from first principles as much to keep this conversation going as anything else.
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Mar 15, 2024 20:49
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