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There's one episode of Voyager where they ran into a different take on the Borg collective: a bunch of individuals who wanted a collective to hang out in together while still retaining their individuality. That episode had a very promising vision for what the Borg and Voyager could have been. Maybe 2-3 times a season, the crew should have stumbled onto another random offshoot of the Borg who were off doing Borg things in a very different way and it could have turned out that the Borg we'd encountered through TNG were just one type of Borg and not even necessarily representative of the species as a whole. But nope, like so many things in Voyager it is simply never mentioned again. So after Picard S2, that means we actually have at least three entirely different takes on the Borg and we'll never see two of them ever again.
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Mar 15, 2024 00:25
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Shaw ascended into the Koala plane seconds after the camera cut away and can come back any time
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Mar 15, 2024 00:27
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He doesn't want to, and I don't blame him.
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Mar 15, 2024 01:20
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Atlas Hugged posted:There's one episode of Voyager where they ran into a different take on the Borg collective: a bunch of individuals who wanted a collective to hang out in together while still retaining their individuality. That episode had a very promising vision for what the Borg and Voyager could have been. Maybe 2-3 times a season, the crew should have stumbled onto another random offshoot of the Borg who were off doing Borg things in a very different way and it could have turned out that the Borg we'd encountered through TNG were just one type of Borg and not even necessarily representative of the species as a whole. But nope, like so many things in Voyager it is simply never mentioned again. Are these the ex-Borg that Chakotay ended up getting partially assimilated by, or the ex-Borg that were part of Seven’s “nine” that ended up being doomed to die due to poor ex-Borgification, or the ex-Borg kids they pawned off except for Icheb so he could go die violently in Picard S1 after being recast [to save $5|due to questionable Tweets], or the ex-Borg who escaped via Unimatrix Zero, or the ex-Borg who, despite having assimilated Picard’s knowledge of Lore being a dick, decide to follow him in an ill-conceived revenge plot?
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Mar 15, 2024 03:17
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Blue Moonlight posted:Are these the ex-Borg that Chakotay ended up getting partially assimilated by, or the ex-Borg that were part of Seven’s “nine” that ended up being doomed to die due to poor ex-Borgification, or the ex-Borg kids they pawned off except for Icheb so he could go die violently in Picard S1 after being recast [to save $5|due to questionable Tweets], or the ex-Borg who escaped via Unimatrix Zero, or the ex-Borg who, despite having assimilated Picard’s knowledge of Lore being a dick, decide to follow him in an ill-conceived revenge plot? These were the ones that had escaped and were pretending to be their original species but needed help building their own hub so that they could link as necessary. Can't remember if they partially assimilated Chakotay or not. But yeah Voyager sure did have a lot of episodes trying to find new ways to have the Borg show up for some dumb reason. Mostly they're just Borg who were bad at being Borg or escaped the collective somehow as opposed to unique offshoots or evolutionary paths, which is ultimately what I think would have been the more interesting route to take through the Delta Quadrant.
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Mar 15, 2024 03:49
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I don't remember which detective noir writer it was that said "if you can't think of a way to move the plot along, have someone burst into the room waving a gun", but I feel like for Voyager that was "if you can't think of a plot this week, BORG!!!"
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Mar 15, 2024 10:52
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Hell didn’t even Enterprise do a Borg episode to try to buoy ratings?
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Mar 15, 2024 12:55
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Tom Tucker posted:Hell didn’t even Enterprise do a Borg episode to try to buoy ratings? Yes, although it also tied off a plot hole left by the First Contact movie.
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Mar 15, 2024 13:49
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Der Kyhe posted:Yes, although it also tied off a plot hole left by the First Contact movie. I thought that was actually a cool episode because of that, it was also done in a way so as not to have more questions than answers.
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Mar 15, 2024 13:54
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Arguably First Contact and the Enterprise Borg episode could have explained away why prequel series’ tech seems more advanced than TOS and the creation of the Mirror Universe, but then the title sequence of Enterprise’s Mirror Universe episodes revealed it had diverged at least before the moon landing. Shameful.
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Mar 15, 2024 14:36
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Considering the reference to Shakespeare's plays in the ENT Mirror episodes, they seem to be hinting that the point of divergence is way the heck back, which, yeah, I don't love. Personally, I'd like it better if the break point was First Contact, with Cochrane either shaking the Vulcan's hand or shooting him.
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Mar 15, 2024 15:49
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The Mirror Universe orbits the Prime Universe on an elliptical course; at its periapsis events are more alike, with wild divergences occurring at apoapsis. The process of "Prime Reassertion" is understood as an overwhelming force within the Mirror Universe, wherein massive shifts in political structure and philosophy occur on a contracted timescale.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:00
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I've never liked the idea that the mirror universe "diverged" at all. It isn't just another alternate timeline. It's the dark, psychotic flipside of the prime universe; always has been and always will be.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:00
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Yeah that was a top-tier damaging concept, along with making the Mirror Universe humans any biologically different than our own.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:04
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A twist on the mirror universe I thought would be neat would be for someone to come through and attempt to start influencing the prime universe as a means of affecting the mirror universe. The entire concept just doesn't work if you take it seriously, like any divergence would spin it into a completely different beast in no time at all, so the events of the mirror universe have to be actively tied to the prime universe like a planet forced to orbit a sun. But by that token, a few embedded agents could engage in a secret war of espionage in the prime universe to influence things for their faction, a bit like the temporal war but trying to affect a different universe.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:07
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Powered Descent posted:I've never liked the idea that the mirror universe "diverged" at all. It isn't just another alternate timeline. It's the dark, psychotic flipside of the prime universe; always has been and always will be. Well, initially in Mirror, Mirror I think it was intended to be the road not taken, something humans of our timeline could have been if they'd indulged their baser temptations.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:14
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swickles posted:I thought that was actually a cool episode because of that, it was also done in a way so as not to have more questions than answers. It also brought us back to the mysterious Borg as an unstoppable entity, it's probably the best Borg ep since like, I, Borg.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:14
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:But by that token, a few embedded agents could engage in a secret war of espionage in the prime universe to influence things for their faction, a bit like the temporal war but trying to affect a different universe. I'm an Anti-Temporal Agent operating in an alternate deleted future of my home mirror universe's prime universe, attempting to affect temporal events to create a universe which will reflect a mirror universe that is my prime mirror universe, thus undeleting it and deleting this one.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:17
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I don't remember which detective noir writer it was that said "if you can't think of a way to move the plot along, have someone burst into the room waving a gun", but I feel like for Voyager that was "if you can't think of a plot this week, BORG!!!" That was Dashiell Hammett. He was a really good writers you should check out his books and/or the movies made from them. The Big Sleep gets you both Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall!
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Mar 15, 2024 16:25
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The Enterprise Borg episode was pretty good despite the eyeroll premise.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:27
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Although I'm a bit disappointed they didn't cold open the episode with a clip straight from First Contact, except when the Sphere explodes we stay with it and follow a piece of debris as it starts to burn up and then crashes in the Arctic.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:42
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MikeJF posted:Although I'm a bit disappointed they didn't cold open the episode with a clip straight from First Contact, except when the Sphere explodes we stay with it and follow a piece of debris as it starts to burn up and then crashes in the Arctic. They seems like something they probably thought of but than couldn't for some reason. Have they ever used footage from one of the films in any of the shows? Even though Paramount would own the rights to both there might still be some rights issues involved for what ever reason, or some management type would have to sign off on it and just didn't want to.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:47
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I am sure the movie Bird of Prey blowing up (you know the one) has been in the shows.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:50
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dr_rat posted:They seems like something they probably thought of but than couldn't for some reason. Have they ever used footage from one of the films in any of the shows? Even though Paramount would own the rights to both there might still be some rights issues involved for what ever reason, or some management type would have to sign off on it and just didn't want to. Enterprise’s Mirror Universe cold open was a bunch of archival footage from First Contact, up to when they cut to Cochrane firing.
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Mar 15, 2024 16:53
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Blue Moonlight posted:Enterprise’s Mirror Universe cold open was a bunch of archival footage from First Contact, up to when they cut to Cochrane firing. this is one of my favorite and funniest things in trek
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Mar 15, 2024 16:54
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dr_rat posted:They seems like something they probably thought of but than couldn't for some reason. Have they ever used footage from one of the films in any of the shows? Even though Paramount would own the rights to both there might still be some rights issues involved for what ever reason, or some management type would have to sign off on it and just didn't want to. In a Mirror Darkly was what I was thinking of, when they used First Contact in the cold open. I doubt they'd have been able to use any of the footage of the TNG actors but it seems like other FX shots were fair game? (Or in a pinch they could've just done a take on it themselves, they had the Sphere and Sovereign assets ready so they wouldn't have had to makes new models. In fact I think EdenFX was doing a few shots for Nemesis at the same time) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Mar 15, 2024 |
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Mar 15, 2024 17:01
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Powered Descent posted:I've never liked the idea that the mirror universe "diverged" at all. It isn't just another alternate timeline. It's the dark, psychotic flipside of the prime universe; always has been and always will be. Except that in the very first MU episode of TOS it's established that the MU didn't have WWIII, so humanity never got over its bloodthirst because it was spared The Post-Atomic Horror. It was a divergent universe from the start.
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Mar 15, 2024 17:08
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mycomancy posted:Except that in the very first MU episode of TOS it's established that the MU didn't have WWIII, so humanity never got over its bloodthirst because it was spared The Post-Atomic Horror. It was a divergent universe from the start. Prime Universe: Zephram Cochrane is hanging out in the woods building a warp-capable starship out of an ICBM because there's no loving infrastructure Mirror Universe: Zephram Cochrane is hanging out in the woods building a warp-capable ICBM because he thinks it would be hilarious to nuke Phobos and damned if he'll let any government goons stop him
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Mar 15, 2024 17:18
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mycomancy posted:Except that in the very first MU episode of TOS it's established that the MU didn't have WWIII, so humanity never got over its bloodthirst because it was spared The Post-Atomic Horror. It was a divergent universe from the start. Yeah, TOS shouldn't be canon.
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Mar 15, 2024 17:21
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Phy posted:Prime Universe: Zephram Cochrane is hanging out in the woods building a warp-capable starship out of an ICBM because there's no loving infrastructure Yeah, the Prime Vulcans visit Bozeman to meet the man who flew to Mars and back in a warp-capable starship. The Mirror Vulcans visit Bozeman to find out who just bifurcated Mars with a warp-capable cruise missile.
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Mar 15, 2024 17:21
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Cochrane was just baiting the Vulcans, he spotted them with his telescope long ago. Boy did they fall for it.
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Mar 15, 2024 17:22
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mycomancy posted:Except that in the very first MU episode of TOS it's established that the MU didn't have WWIII, so humanity never got over its bloodthirst because it was spared The Post-Atomic Horror. It was a divergent universe from the start. [Citation please]. I don't recall that from Mirror, Mirror.
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Mar 15, 2024 17:24
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Turn on your wall
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Mar 15, 2024 17:28
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MikeJF posted:[Citation please]. I don't recall that from Mirror, Mirror. Yeah, there's nothing like that in Mirror, Mirror, but that is the plot point of "The City on the Edge of Forever," that Edith Keeler must die so that WW2 happens; otherwise, the Axis wins.
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Mar 15, 2024 18:23
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dr_rat posted:They seems like something they probably thought of but than couldn't for some reason. Have they ever used footage from one of the films in any of the shows? Even though Paramount would own the rights to both there might still be some rights issues involved for what ever reason, or some management type would have to sign off on it and just didn't want to. They used a shot of a control panel from Wrath of Kahn in LDS Crisis Point II and I'm pretty sure I read or heard somewhere that yeah they had to ask the movie division for licensing permission for that (and they were really confused why they just wanted to license a single frame).
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Mar 15, 2024 19:45
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Brawnfire posted:I'm an Anti-Temporal Agent operating in an alternate deleted future of my home mirror universe's prime universe, attempting to affect temporal events to create a universe which will reflect a mirror universe that is my prime mirror universe, thus undeleting it and deleting this one. Like putting too much air in a balloon! It's almost too easy.
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Mar 15, 2024 20:03
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dr_rat posted:Have they ever used footage from one of the films in any of the shows? Yup. Off the top of my head: - The Genesis effect simulation was (for some unexplained reason) one of Riker's flashbacks in Shades of Gray. - Starbase 74 in 1011011010 was a shot of Spacedock from ST3 with the Enterprise-D pasted over the Enterprise-no-bloody-A-B-C-or-D. - The "expanding donut" visual effect layer from the very end of TMP (where the ship comes out of V'Ger) became Gomtuu's attack in Tin Man. - Flashback (the Voyager ep with Sulu) used a bunch of Excelsior clips from ST6. I'm sure there are others.
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Mar 15, 2024 20:21
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Powered Descent posted:- Starbase 74 in 1011011010 was a shot of Spacedock from ST3 with the Enterprise-D pasted over the Enterprise-no-bloody-A-B-C-or-D. I wouldn't be surprised if that was legally different because it was reuse of an asset (the effects footage) in the creation of something new rather than showing the footage. Even if they did just take footage from the movie with the D pasted over the top.
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Mar 15, 2024 20:34
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MikeJF posted:I wouldn't be surprised if that was legally different because it was reuse of an asset (the effects footage) in the creation of something new rather than showing the footage. Even if they did just take footage from the movie with the D pasted over the top. There was supposed to be a retrofitted Spacedock that had additional external docking spaces for big honking chonkers like the Galaxy-class, but I think it was either too expensive to alter the Spacedock model or they just didn't have time to do it for the episode, but there's concept art of it out there done by Andrew Probert.   also someone on DeviantArt did this, which  https://www.deviantart.com/somebuddyx/art/ENTERPRISE-D-ENTERING-EARTH-SPACEDOCK-806131398
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Mar 15, 2024 20:56
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Powered Descent posted:Yup. Off the top of my head: Meanwhile, Trials and Tribble-ations famously used body doubles and ahead of its time CGI to diligently recreate all the footage from Trouble with Tribbles with Sisko, Dax, etc in it.
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Mar 15, 2024 21:02
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