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Gaius Marius posted:I can't believe these groups of humans are engaging with activities common to groups of humans. Kind of a silly sentiment but the opposite "noble savage" / "colours of the wind" sentiment that's very popular in american society is equally dumb (even though no one is really thinking of the Aztecs with those). edit: gently caress, terrible snipe. please don't paint me with all the colours of the wind
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Mar 13, 2024 12:47
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:I might be remembering the finer details wrong but I believe they were saying that in some engagements you wouldn't speed up even for the final push unless you were sure you could keep formation. I believe it was cav Vs cav engagements which might be different than into infantry. This is a kind of interesting one. I am pretty far from the era in terms of my knowledge here, but it might be instructive. In the Napoleonic era some commanders deliberately held at a slower pace at the moment of contact, but doctrine / practical experience called for advancing to a (controlled) gallop less than 200 but more than 50 paces from the point of contact. Part of the purpose of cavalry is its force in a physics sense; failure to accelerate the mass means the mass collides with less force and is less intimidating. Important to note that much cavalry-on-cavalry combat does not get to the point of contact; one side will in many cases lose their nerve and flee. Presenting a solid mass of men and horses, well disciplined, accelerating on command and arriving at the point of contact with sufficient force all help you break the nerve of your enemy. In cav-on-cav action, everyone's doctrine was to receive a charge with a countercharge as well, and although there are contrary instances they are very rare. Both Bulgarin and du Picq believed that nearly all charges were resolved without contact, and they each had substantial practical experience in the matter. Du Picq claims 98%, with 75% resolving with one side fleeing before pistol-shot distance. The next most likely outcome was the two charging formations halting and poking away at each other with lances, sabres, and sidearms in a brawl/melee until someone gave up. I'm not sure if this is applicable to ancient cavalry (non horse archers edition), or if it is a product of gunpowder weapons, but I am inclined to think that it is a natural reaction to facing another relatively disciplined body. In these cases formations would typically slow at a distance where men could clearly see individual faces of their opponents, so probably a bit more than 25 paces. Rarely would the formations "ride through" each other and reform on the other side, ready to go again but of course this is the most thrilling and what everyone pictures in their mind. Bot The trick to winning a cav-on-cav fight is to a) have reserves formed up ready to charge again and b) have disciplined enough dudes that they will reform rather than mindlessly pursuing a fleeing enemy.
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Mar 13, 2024 14:45
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Mar 13, 2024 15:59
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Really it should be called the Peloponnesian Empire
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Mar 13, 2024 16:01
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Map should be all one color, all labelled >50 years
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Mar 13, 2024 19:07
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Map should be all one color, all labelled >50 years okay?  
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Mar 13, 2024 21:22
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that's a good map!
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Mar 13, 2024 21:28
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For a given definition of Roman.
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Mar 14, 2024 00:35
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brb, posting this to Cato the Elder via my Time Vortex
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Mar 14, 2024 00:44
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What were they getting after that deep into North Africa? What was the state of the sahara 200 years ago
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Mar 14, 2024 00:47
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Nenonen posted:okay? ah yes, the universal empire
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Mar 14, 2024 00:48
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zoux posted:What were they getting after that deep into North Africa? What was the state of the sahara 200 years ago Septimius Severus captured Garama for a little while. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes Rome had a few pokes into Africa, but for the most part their control was fuzzier the further you get from the coast.
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Mar 14, 2024 03:56
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zoux posted:What were they getting after that deep into North Africa? What was the state of the sahara 200 years ago  I think the Sahara was still desert at the time but may have been somewhat less nasty, if I understand correctly it has historically oscillated between savannah and, well, what it is now. It may get back into savannah with climate change!
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Mar 14, 2024 04:01
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It was basically the same as now. The Sahara was of little interest since you couldn't farm there. Fortifications were built to deal with raids from desert nomads, and there were a handful of expeditions across the desert looking for gold, but that was about it.
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Mar 14, 2024 04:53
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I'm more impressed by how economically valuable North Africa, that is the thin strip of land from present day Algeria to Libya, was to the Roman metropole. I mean I get it was built on top of Carthage, but still, it's not a huge amount of land and it abuts the desert. Was it a case of a high proportion of coastal access supporting intensive market-oriented agriculture? Or was it a case of a longer growing season making the territory just that much more agriculturally productive.
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Mar 14, 2024 12:42
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Elden Lord Godfrey posted:I'm more impressed by how economically valuable North Africa, that is the thin strip of land from present day Algeria to Libya, was to the Roman metropole. I mean I get it was built on top of Carthage, but still, it's not a huge amount of land and it abuts the desert. Was it a case of a high proportion of coastal access supporting intensive market-oriented agriculture? Or was it a case of a longer growing season making the territory just that much more agriculturally productive.
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Mar 14, 2024 13:28
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The desert may have still been plenty deserty back then, but there were some aquifers that made North Africa more agriculturally productive. https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/world-class-aquifer-enabled-ancient-african-kingdom-to-thrive-in-the-sahara-for-hundreds-of-years They ran dry.
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Mar 14, 2024 14:28
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I thought the big "moneymaker" was Egypt which has something special about it, in the form of the Nile.
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Mar 14, 2024 15:03
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Nessus posted:I thought the big "moneymaker" was Egypt which has something special about it, in the form of the Nile. The rest of North Africa wasn't as productive as Egypt, but produced enough to be worth occupying nonetheless.
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Mar 14, 2024 15:05
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Nessus posted:I thought the big "moneymaker" was Egypt which has something special about it, in the form of the Nile. Egypt was the richest part of the classical world but the Roman province of Africa, which is roughly Tunisia + some neighboring stuff, was also a very productive and important farming region. Sicily, Africa, and Egypt were the super productive grain producers that fed the cities that couldn't feed themselves.
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Mar 14, 2024 15:48
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Egypt fed the east, Africa province fed the west, to oversimplify significantly. The single most important factor in the collapse of the western empire was the loss of Africa to Geiseric and the Vandals. All the other stuff in the 5th century was bad enough, but without the ability to get grain and money from a subservient Africa, western imperial government was no real threat to the independent polities in Gaul and Spain and could no longer afford to support the urban population of Rome itself. In the last 20 years of the western empire, Ricimer’s government largely occupied itself with two big plans to get Africa back and after the second one (supported by Constantinople) failed, both imperial governments were broke and the game was up. Ricimer broke with Constantinople, appointed a Vandal-aligned candidate emperor, and promptly died. His heir, Gundobad, decided this empire poo poo was for dorks and went home to fight his brothers for the Burgundian throne instead. Africa was a big deal
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Mar 14, 2024 16:24
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Africa mattered so much because when it came to movement of large amounts of food the options were the water, or not at all. The reason it was valuable was the coast.
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Mar 14, 2024 16:37
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Going to abuse this thread again to ask for book recommendations that don't belong (apologies); What are the best books about japanese history pre-1900 that are available in english (or at least has a passable english translation)? Any pre-1900 period is fine.
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Mar 14, 2024 18:29
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SlothfulCobra posted:I really like the book Comanche Empire by Pekka Haimalainen. He's written other books about Native American groups like the Lakota that I've heard grumbling about, but I've never checked them out, so I don't know the deal. I had to double check the title and the author because I read a book with a very similar title and topic. "Empire of the Southern Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches" by S.C. Gwynne. I highly recommend this book, and now I'm going to have to look up Comanche Empire and see how they compare.
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Mar 15, 2024 05:08
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evilweasel posted:Africa mattered so much because when it came to movement of large amounts of food the options were the water, or not at all. The reason it was valuable was the coast. To be clear almost all of the Roman empire was coastal. Like eastern spain and greece and southern spain and uh Italy were all coastal. Not all of them produced enormous food surpluses.
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Mar 15, 2024 06:04
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Tulip posted:To be clear almost all of the Roman empire was coastal. Like eastern spain and greece and southern spain and uh Italy were all coastal. Not all of them produced enormous food surpluses. no, that's not true. none of those places are coastal
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Mar 15, 2024 08:10
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Dante posted:Going to abuse this thread again to ask for book recommendations that don't belong (apologies); What are the best books about japanese history pre-1900 that are available in english (or at least has a passable english translation)? Any pre-1900 period is fine. Japan Emerging e. Karl Friday is probably the most authoritative work out there at the moment, at least until the new version of the Cambridge History of Japan eventually comes out. For a less dense monograph, I quite like William Wayne Farris' Japan to 1600: A Social and Economic History.
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Mar 15, 2024 15:37
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Koramei posted:Japan Emerging e. Karl Friday is probably the most authoritative work out there at the moment, at least until the new version of the Cambridge History of Japan eventually comes out. For a less dense monograph, I quite like William Wayne Farris' Japan to 1600: A Social and Economic History. Excellent, thank you!
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Mar 15, 2024 22:49
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  Going through my dads coin collection- thought this thread might appreciate this!
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Mar 15, 2024 23:00
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That's one hell of a coin.
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Mar 15, 2024 23:02
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Very prescient tie in merch for the release of AoE
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Mar 15, 2024 23:14
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drat that is cool rear end coin. Would love to have something like it.
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Mar 15, 2024 23:32
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🩶
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Mar 16, 2024 01:25
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Radia posted:no, that's not true. none of those places are coastal edit: oh hell yes How! posted:
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Mar 16, 2024 03:03
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I picked up a few ancient coins, should probably take pics for the thread.
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Mar 16, 2024 03:52
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How! posted:
Yes, that is obviously Athena, but I didn't think that RVs had been invented yet, and that owl definitely doesn't have one.
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Mar 16, 2024 04:09
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Edit lol nm
Barry Foster fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 07:48
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Orbs posted:Wait, they're not? I thought the mediterranean coastline counted, at least as far as shipping and trade go. you're not thinking with like.. your wider mind, maaan. the only places coastal are those that we WANT to be coastal
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Mar 16, 2024 09:21
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it was the land locked nature of the western roman empire that made it collapse. the east, where they knew mesopotamia was part of the mediterranean coast, was able to survive far longer.
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Mar 16, 2024 09:23
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Radia posted:you're not thinking with like.. your wider mind, maaan. the only places coastal are those that we WANT to be coastal Radia posted:it was the land locked nature of the western roman empire that made it collapse. the east, where they knew mesopotamia was part of the mediterranean coast, was able to survive far longer.
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Mar 16, 2024 11:05
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