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One thing I like about 5e is how it kinda simplifies a lot of this kind of numbers inflation even if the result is not as flexible as I'd like at times. Not enough "horizontal" progression.
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Mar 12, 2024 17:56
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Schwarzwald posted:Contrast/compare this to the earlier discussion about Polymorph Other and you might get an idea of why 3.5 was considered a caster edition. The whole Polymorph family of spells in 3.5 is pretty ridiculous. Polymorph Any Object in particular stands out as "how could the designers possibly have considered that OK?"
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Mar 12, 2024 17:58
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Because wizards can do anything,
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Mar 12, 2024 18:11
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Caphi posted:Because wizards can do anything, It ain't called Fighters of the Coast.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:49
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Capfalcon posted:However, next we get into the most important (and most tedious) part of high level 3.5 combat: stacking buffs and bonuses. They actually do probably have other buffs considering Mind Blank is active on Roy and V and it wasn't cast at the start of the fight. Telepathic Bond is still active too which suggests that some of the buffs they cast to ambush Xykon are probably still in effect. But that's all off panel so there's not much way to calculate it.
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Mar 12, 2024 18:59
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Wizards get to be the wizards of all the elements, of illusions, of mind-reading, of creating grand magical prisons, summoning both the dead and creatures from other planes, and of manipulating matter. You may specialize in one of these, but you're still perfectly capable of doing them all, with very few exceptions. But if a Fighter wants to be an absolute master at both really big sword and slightly less big sword? Woah, WOAH. Reel it back in here, let's not get too crazy.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:06
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Sometimes I get the impression that the role balance was supposed to be a rock-paper-scissors kind of deal with Rogues as the third element that can one-shot Wizards but gets facetanked by Fighters.
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Mar 12, 2024 19:35
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Yeah, Belkar is painted as one of the most lethal and minmaxed people in the party, so he clearly knows something we don't. Not really, he pretty consistently gets shown up by Roy. He comes off as super lethal because he never really has any major adversaries of his own, so he always ends up either fighting large numbers of relative weaklings or jumping someone who can't really stand up to a melee fighter in a head-on 1v1 fight. Cup Runneth Over posted:They explicitly didn't! And he trashed Hayley's personal rival and the head of the Thieves' Guild, the former at least is narratively required to be equal level to Hayley. But I'll accept that he mostly dishes out death to mooks, not Big Bads. As the Belkster put it himself, "Wow, it's almost like I'm a seasoned warrior and you two are glorified pickpockets!".
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Mar 12, 2024 20:37
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Sometimes I get the impression that the role balance was supposed to be a rock-paper-scissors kind of deal with Rogues as the third element that can one-shot Wizards but gets facetanked by Fighters. Nah. The OG White Box D&D only had "fighting-man", "magic-user" and cleric, no thieves. It explicitly described the wizards as a 'carry' class that needs protection early on but becomes the most personally powerful at high level, while high-level fighters and clerics become lords of armies. Thieves were added iirc in AD&D a few years later at the same time as druids, paladins, monks, and a half-dozen more.
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Mar 12, 2024 20:53
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NihilCredo posted:Nah. The OG White Box D&D only had "fighting-man", "magic-user" and cleric, no thieves. It explicitly described the wizards as a 'carry' class that needs protection early on but becomes the most personally powerful at high level, while high-level fighters and clerics become lords of armies. Don't forget "Elf".
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Mar 12, 2024 21:45
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Thief was pretty much a nerf to
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Mar 12, 2024 21:47
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Gynovore posted:Don't forget "Elf". Contrary to the popular factoid that circulates nowadays, elf/dwarf/hobbit (later halfling)weren't classes in White Box DnD; they were indeed races. quote:Elves can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game. Thus, they gain the benefits of both classes and may use both weaponry and spells. They may use magic armor and still act as Magic-Users. However, they may not progress beyond 4th level Fighting-Man (Hero) nor 8th level Magic-User (Warlock). Elves are more able to note secret and hidden doors. They also gain the advantages noted in the CHAINMAIL rules when fighting certain fantastic creatures. Finally, Elves are able to speak the languages Ons. Hobgoblins, and Gnolls in addition to their own (Elvish) and the other usual tongues. https://archive.org/details/dungeons-dragons-white-box/page/n9/mode/2up e: the source of the confusion is likely DnD's precursor, the fantasy add-on for Chainmail, which added elves, dwarves, wizards, dragons, balrogs, etc. as optional units to be deployed in the medieval wargame, each with their own point value Schwarzwald posted:Thief was pretty much a nerf to Knock and find traps were already present as wizard and cleric spell, respectively, in the White Box. It's mildly funny that they were regularly (and correctly) accused of being 2nd level spells that invalidated a Thief's entire class, since in fact they pre-dated the class. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Mar 12, 2024 |
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Mar 12, 2024 23:01
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Speaking of classic D&D I thought the "stump with a rabbit on it and tentacles" was just a gag Rich made up and didn't know it was a real thing called a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing.
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Mar 12, 2024 23:16
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NihilCredo posted:Knock and find traps were already present as wizard and cleric spell, respectively, in the White Box. It's mildly funny that they were regularly (and correctly) accused of being 2nd level spells that invalidated a Thief's entire class, since in fact they pre-dated the class.
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Mar 12, 2024 23:16
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Poil posted:I've never understood that. Why would anyone waste their limited spells on something another character can freely do all day long? Aren't wizards supposed to have a high int score?
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Mar 12, 2024 23:21
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Schwarzwald posted:Thief was pretty much a nerf to
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Mar 12, 2024 23:55
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I should note their damage against Calder should be lower cause they are attacking him in Antimagic Calder should have DR 20 deactivated by magic. So that should be a lot of damage he’s not taking. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 13, 2024 |
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Mar 13, 2024 00:07
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Poil posted:I've never understood that. Why would anyone waste their limited spells on something another character can freely do all day long? Aren't wizards supposed to have a high int score? You don't prepare knock/find traps, you put them on scrolls and wands.
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Mar 13, 2024 00:10
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MonsterEnvy posted:I should note their damage against Calder should be lower cause they are attacking him in Antimagic Good point about the enhancement bonuses and other magic items being turned off. However, DR/magic is a supernatural ability, so it is also turned off in anti-magic.
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Mar 13, 2024 00:19
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Dragon fire breath is also turned off by anti-magic lol
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Mar 13, 2024 03:08
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Capfalcon posted:Good point about the enhancement bonuses and other magic items being turned off. However, DR/magic is a supernatural ability, so it is also turned off in anti-magic. Breath is turned off, but DR is not stated as being a SU ability, and everything is pretty clearly marked.
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Mar 13, 2024 04:32
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MonsterEnvy posted:Breath is turned off, but DR is not stated as being a SU ability, and everything is pretty clearly marked. From the Rules Compendium: quote:When magic can overcome a creature’s damage reduction, a weapon that has a +1 or higher magical enhancement bonus is required. If a creature has this kind of damage reduction, such as DR 5/magic, it also has the magic strike ability (see page 101). This kind of damage reduction is supernatural. Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon that has an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Going through the various types of DR, most of them are supernatural in nature. Only DR that can be overcome by a weapon type (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning), an adamantine weapon, or nothing at all ("-" after DR value) is extraordinary and thus still works in an anti-magic field.
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Mar 13, 2024 05:11
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The_Other posted:From the Rules Compendium: Thanks I missed that. I was looking around the ability and the entry for the dragon.
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Mar 13, 2024 13:24
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NihilCredo posted:Contrary to the popular factoid that circulates nowadays, elf/dwarf/hobbit (later halfling)weren't classes in White Box DnD; they were indeed races. You're correct that they weren't a class in White Box D&D. A later revision of the D&D Basic Set, the Red Box by Moldvay, had Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling as classes. This was a revision to the Basic Set rules and was meant to help streamline it and, if I remember correctly, act as a stepping stone to AD&D which was also being printed at the time. https://archive.org/details/set-1-basic-rules-box-set/page/n25/mode/1up Robviously fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 14, 2024 |
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Mar 14, 2024 20:40
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FMguru posted:Early D&D had your wizards start with a random selection of spells. Maybe your spellbook has Web, Magic Missile, and Sleep! More likely it has Feather Fall, Tenser's Floating Disk, and Detect Gold. You loaded up on oddball spells because sometimes that was all you had. The old edition discourse made me look up the version of ODD I bought from DTRPG back in ye day- around 2013 or so. Now I can't tell exactly what version it is- it seems to be a new layout of the original text, with new and detailed cover art for each booklet and the Wizards Logo and updated copyright, but it seems to be aiming for the original box. And uh, it doesn't actually say what spells you start with. Like it tells you your spells per level, and that you have books for spells (apparently one per level), and the cost of replacing them and the cost of researching new spells, but the way you decide what spells a Magic User has... apparently was not in the book at first. The original game was not 100% complete and I imagine this was one of the first things they had to clarify. (And part of the confusion re: demihumans is that the booklet lists Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits- er, Halflings (and the book I have uses the updated non-infringing term so presumably that's another tweak) listed after Fighting Men, Magic Users, and Clerics- but when you look at the entries for each they actually say that Elves can be Fighting Men or Magic Users, Dwarves and Halflings can only be Fighting Men, and their level limits.) (In retrospect it's amazing this game got anywhere.)
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Mar 16, 2024 05:10
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Maxwell Lord posted:The old edition discourse made me look up the version of ODD I bought from DTRPG back in ye day- around 2013 or so. Now I can't tell exactly what version it is- it seems to be a new layout of the original text, with new and detailed cover art for each booklet and the Wizards Logo and updated copyright, but it seems to be aiming for the original box. In AD&D the thing they "clarified" is "your GM makes it up however they see fit," so it's not actually much better since that's the implicit rule anyway, it just confirms you're not missing anything.
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Mar 16, 2024 05:18
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Adnd is a hair off game design outsider art
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Mar 16, 2024 06:16
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sebmojo posted:Adnd is a hair off game design outsider art Calling it that implies there was established art to take inspiration from and a knowledge base of best practices, with respect to rpg design. I suppose my knowledge of gaming history has a lot of holes in it, but wasn't D&D pioneering that field?
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Mar 16, 2024 15:16
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A.o.D. posted:Calling it that implies there was established art to take inspiration from and a knowledge base of best practices, with respect to rpg design. I suppose my knowledge of gaming history has a lot of holes in it, but wasn't D&D pioneering that field? D&D is weird because it was an extension of existing wargames. The bolted on collaborative story telling came later, and even had a fair amount of pushback on it. These are things that existed before but the synthesis of them was messy and "outsider"-ish since the people building it up in those earliest of days didn't really understand any of the building blocks they were using.
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Mar 16, 2024 15:30
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A.o.D. posted:Calling it that implies there was established art to take inspiration from and a knowledge base of best practices, with respect to rpg design. I suppose my knowledge of gaming history has a lot of holes in it, but wasn't D&D pioneering that field? There were several notable games prior to AD&D, most obviously OD&D, but also Empire of the Petal Throne, Tunnels & Trolls, Chivalry & Sorcery, and Traveller. But yes, it was still very early, before or at almost the same time as Gamma World, RuneQuest, Villains and Vigilantes. I think the implicit comparison people are making when they call AD&D “outsider art” or whatever is to B/X D&D, which is much more important to modern “old-school” gaming.
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Mar 16, 2024 15:59
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It's amazing how at the beginning there was always Rule Zero but it still took multiple official editions before DMs stopped being assholes about playing like as Dragon People or Tieflings. Like yes, it can be fun to have that Pathologic level of difficulty of "everyone hates you" but sometimes you just want only a little fantasy racism directed at you and you just wanna look cool. I remember before any stats for Dragonborn existed I played a game where we took some homebrew rules for "monster level progression" for Sivak Draconians but made it so I could weave between progressing in my monster levels (higher hitdice, special abilities, being able to fly, etc) and PC class levels; that was genuinely an interesting mechanic. Probably not balanced at all but it's interesting; modern D&D doesn't have that level of crunchiness anymore I think?
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Mar 16, 2024 16:25
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5e mostly doesn't have that level of crunchiness because there are kinda shockingly few splatbooks for it. I started volunteer DMing for a group of middle schoolers at an afterschool program and I was really surprised how FEW official options there were to work from for some of the concepts they wanted to play. I ended up having to tweak some stuff for most of them.
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Mar 16, 2024 17:10
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Instantly reminded of the story about the OD&D game where the player wanted to play as a vampire. So the DM made them start as a 1hd skeleton and work their way up. Allegedly they did make it to full on vampirehood... until they got into an aerial battle with other vampires. Apparently level drain worked on the undead. And losing more than one level meant becoming undead that was incapable of flight... Googling the story this was probably made up for RPG codex.
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Mar 16, 2024 21:01
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Oh, the days before a dm could just say "find a homebrew from dndbeyond that isn't mass downvoted and if it doesn't look op you can use it"
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Mar 19, 2024 04:40
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I don't know where a vampire falls on the power scale (especially in OD&D), but I'm not sure if it would be THAT hard to make a 20-level class for it, with you starting off basically powerless and slowly gaining your abilities and enhanced stats as you level up, and the capstone being the equivilant of a normal vampire. Yes, I'm saying "Congrats, your class is Vampire, no you don't get a second class on top of that. Don't make me break out the multi-class and dual-class rules!"
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Mar 19, 2024 13:43
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Probably not entirely without powers, as they start off with a fair few weaknesses, and adds a fairly common roadblock a GM can use to 'nudge' the party in changing plans - rivers and such can't be crossed. Something along the lines of a Magic-User xp line, adding powers that could align with the type of spells a MU can use at that level. Although there can be plenty of 'dead' levels where the change is mostly the Fighting Man/Magic-User saves and a +1 to hp, seeing as they'll end up with 9HD and the best saves of a 7th level Fighting Man and a 12th level Magic User.
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Mar 19, 2024 14:15
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Yeah, vampires are the sort of creature where race-as-class actually makes sense. It’s a logical mechanic if you want to play as, say, a balrog (something OD&D specifically suggests GMs might want to homebrew a class for). The actual implementation of race-as-class in B/X is for creatures that are basically just short or pointy-eared humans, though, which feels pointless; the Halfling in particular feels insufficiently distinct from the Thief.
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Mar 19, 2024 15:19
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LashLightning posted:Probably not entirely without powers, as they start off with a fair few weaknesses, and adds a fairly common roadblock a GM can use to 'nudge' the party in changing plans - rivers and such can't be crossed. Actually, just thinking about it, even things like the weaknesses could be fairly mild early on, and as the class developes and you hit higher and higher levels, the weaknesses become more pronounced. Some of the effects like "Being always evil" would have to be fudged, but it's not the first time a class has had a "Is always considered to be X alignment for effect purposes"... I think.
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Mar 19, 2024 17:15
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The 1e PHB has a line like, "if players want to play as something that isn't covered here, for instance a dragon, just have them start off as a very weak baby dragon and slowly work their way up." So unusual PC species were actually right in there from the start, albeit in the wooliest way possible. 1e was also simplified enough combat-wise that it would have been easy to homebrew stuff. Your hypothetical dragon probably just advances as a Fighting Man with a slight level deficit and unlocks a couple of spells as they grow.
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Mar 19, 2024 18:23
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Randalor posted:I don't know where a vampire falls on the power scale (especially in OD&D), but I'm not sure if it would be THAT hard to make a 20-level class for it, with you starting off basically powerless and slowly gaining your abilities and enhanced stats as you level up, and the capstone being the equivilant of a normal vampire. 4e actually did this - it wasn't particularly flexible/powerful but it was a full 1-30 class that had: * bloodsucking * incentives to borrow blood from your buddies * life draining * potential death by sunlight (but it let you away with wearing a cloak) * regeneration turned off by radiant damage * lots of variants of 'disappear into a swarm of bats and reform' * hypnotic beckoning upgrading to various mind control variants * consuming blood for physical might / * bat polymorph * spider climb all in there. Pretty fun, I am a big fan of specific class design like this. Famously there was a vampiric-heritage-themed race and a vampire-blood feat so you could be a triple vampire if you really wanted to.
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Mar 19, 2024 19:31
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