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Fun, not serious theory. Hollow was from Cloud, Promises to Keep was from Aerith. Square's said the three "view points" of FF7 are Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth. Does that mean that Re3's song us going to be from Sephiroth's point of view?
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Mar 16, 2024 04:09
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It's gonna be a song where the lyrics are "I'm Gina stab everyone!" Over and over again, with it in Latin at the very end.
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Mar 16, 2024 04:17
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RC Cola posted:What is the best new song and why is it jenova 1 (tied). Mt Corel Dungeon and Battle 2. Bow Wow Wow Bow Wow Wow 3. Everything else
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Mar 16, 2024 05:06
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Oh hey, saw a cool observation just now. One of Cait Sith’s fortunes when he first meets Cloud and Barret is “Watch your belongings. Lucky color: black.” Remember what Cloud finds in his pocket at the end?
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Mar 16, 2024 05:45
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I just beat the game and after a quick shower I feel like such a dumb baby for... kind of having Aerith's death whiff completely over my head due to not really understanding the ambiguity and being barrelled straight into a multi-stage final boss rush (including one where I spent way too long on because neither Barret, Yuffie, or Red had any magic materia equipped). The entire final set of cutscenes was me going "IS SHE DEAD OR WHAT" lol It is a really interesting decision to have the immediate grief fallout of Aerith's death on Cloud's unreliable rear end because we really don't get to see much of the party process it at all. With that said, seeing Tifa completely shattered over the loss did hit me amidst all the confusion. The sheer... Anticipation I felt leading through the Forgotten Capital was an incredible feeling. And for a brief moment I thought Cloud really did it and having it dawn across me through to the credits was like a stone slowly sinking in a pool.
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Mar 16, 2024 06:42
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Harrow posted:I don't think it's just that Cloud's crazy. Red XIII reacts to Aerith's presence at the end as well--clearly there's something real there, and not just a hallucination. Same for the rift in the sky. I just think that doesn't necessarily means that he created a new timeline where Aerith survived. Aerith's actions after being stabbed just seem so... well, "I'm dead and I know it," for lack of a better description. I feel like the idea that "Aerith must die in every possible universe" is far weirder than whatever weirdness you are feeling from the idea that she was saved in another universe that isn't the one we're in. I read it as "there might be another universe in which she was saved, but Sephiroth forced us into this one where she's dead." Which makes sense with him trying to size control over fate and all timelines. Clarste fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 07:03
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lol wrong thread
Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 16, 2024 |
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Mar 16, 2024 07:45
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Remake had that one on one chat with a party member at Aerith's house near the end, and Rebirth had the date, I wonder what the big bonding moment in the third game will be? A final chat just before the return to the Northern Crater for the final fight?
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Mar 16, 2024 14:23
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You’re going to see that rainbow swirl while Cloud and Tifa are boning in the grass and the little “Zack and Aerith have joined the party” is gonna pop in.
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Mar 16, 2024 14:25
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RuBisCO posted:It is a really interesting decision to have the immediate grief fallout of Aerith's death on Cloud's unreliable rear end because we really don't get to see much of the party process it at all. With that said, seeing Tifa completely shattered over the loss did hit me amidst all the confusion. I think everything came together really well in the last scene with the Bronco being repaired. They did an amazing job fleshing out how close Aerith and Tifa were and seeing Tifa completely destroyed with grief while Cloud is just off in his own world, not able to comfort her in any way, was what really got me. Rhonne posted:Remake had that one on one chat with a party member at Aerith's house near the end, and Rebirth had the date, I wonder what the big bonding moment in the third game will be? A final chat just before the return to the Northern Crater for the final fight? Under the Highwind with Barrett
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Mar 16, 2024 16:47
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Finished it, thought it ruled, moderately confused by the ending, but the thing that's kinda stuck in my craw is that it's a little weird to start with the Kalm flashback and not really pay that off in the ending. I was kind of assuming they'd combine some of the stuff from Northern Crater in the original with the Forgotten Capital just to give the middle chapter more of an arc, but they didn't. Oh well.
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Mar 16, 2024 20:40
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Arist posted:Finished it, thought it ruled, moderately confused by the ending, but the thing that's kinda stuck in my craw is that it's a little weird to start with the Kalm flashback and not really pay that off in the ending. I was kind of assuming they'd combine some of the stuff from Northern Crater in the original with the Forgotten Capital just to give the middle chapter more of an arc, but they didn't. Oh well. It's also weird that they revealed the fact that Zack was there, but it didn't matter much in the plot. Maybe they have different plans for the reveal in the northern crater.
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Mar 16, 2024 20:48
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I think the Kalm thing is less about Zack and more about emphasizing to the audience how hosed up Cloud is, and that *does* pay off in the ending
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Mar 16, 2024 21:34
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Spermando posted:It's also weird that they revealed the fact that Zack was there, but it didn't matter much in the plot. Maybe they have different plans for the reveal in the northern crater. Cloud had to remember that Zack was a person who existed and was friends with because otherwise, he would be very confused when this black haired SOLDIER showed up to help him.
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Mar 16, 2024 21:36
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Finished the game last night. Count me in as another person confused by what had happened going into the jenova fight but I more-or-less got it as it went along. Didn't read the aesthetic cues right so I thought the parrying into death had to do with the merging of worlds rather than Cloud's crazy rear end. Last boss was a bit long but I quite liked the ending. Last few scenes with the party hit like a truck. Got chills in the mourning scene at the capital when Cloud is sitting and turns around to look at (ghost?) Aerith and they played the opening sting. And then things just got more ominous from there. Glad they let Cloud's VA flex with those last two chapters. The scene at the end of chapter 13 where he's chasing Aerith for the black materia was especially haunting. If we're talking favorite music, Cait Sith's theme's got me good since I did his tutorial. Kitty got such a glow-up in general it's insane.
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Mar 16, 2024 23:24
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Yeah, Cloud's voice acting during the chase is genuinely excellent. It is a fantastic mix of scary and pathetic that is genuinely more disturbing than if he waa stone silent or furious or whatever. He sounds and acts utterly servile and it is some grade A Renfield poo poo
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Mar 16, 2024 23:29
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I don't know what you're talking about, Cloud is fine. He's okay. Let's get moving
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Mar 16, 2024 23:34
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the scenes with aerith in the alternate world also did a good job of highlighting just how corpse-like his delivery had been for the last six hours
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Mar 16, 2024 23:35
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Not quite corpse-like, but they really sell how Sepiroth's influence is getting to him all throughout chapter 13. His "Are you finished?" after Aerith's pep talk in the chamber of trials got me to drop a jesus out loud. One little moment I really love is after the demon wall when he's slashing at the wall to break it down and he turns around to look at the party with just the most sad and kinda pathetic expression on his face. Very brief moment but it really tells you where he's at and sets up everything that comes after that really well.
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Mar 16, 2024 23:48
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I regret reading this thread because I think I've been talked into believing the "Aerith's alive in another timeline" theory over "Cloud is seeing Aerith's ghost" theory and I gotta be honest, I really, really hate that. Like a lot. To the degree that I find it difficult to put into words how dumb I think that is, both as an ending for this game and a setup for the next. Something that's kind of gnawing at me a bit: I keep thinking about the argument people had after Remake, that if they'd just followed the story of the original, it would've been boring. After Rebirth, I gotta say I think that is 100% bullshit. At least 95% of Rebirth is either an adaptation or expansion of something from the original, or new stuff that fits into a gap or adds new lore around the edges (things like the new Gi and Black Materia stuff). And all of that is rad as hell, it's exciting, a lot of it feels new because it has new twists on familiar things or exciting new version of those things. It's anything but boring. Rebirth is amazing but I now very firmly believe it would've been even better without the Whispers and multiverse stuff. Every other new, changed, or expanded thing, I like. If that makes me an entitled purist, well, that's unfortunate but I guess that's how it's gotta be. I don't think it does--again, I like a lot of the new and changed elements--but people tend to take it that way so I might as well just accept it. Like I find it almost maddening how they can get so much right, extremely right, more right than I ever imagined, but then staple this multiverse plot tumor onto the side that sours the whole thing for me. Harrow fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 00:12
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It wouldn't have been boring if they'd followed the original, and I can only speak for myself, but personally I just vastly prefer this direction
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Mar 17, 2024 00:14
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Yeah, and I want to be clear I'm only speaking for myself. I don't want to rain on anyone else's parade and I'll probably bow out of this thread soon after this so that I don't. But nobody I know in real life has played Rebirth so this is the only place I have to get things like this out of my head. Apologies for the negativity.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:16
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they want shady posted:Finished the game last night. Count me in as another person confused by what had happened going into the jenova fight but I more-or-less got it as it went along. Didn't read the aesthetic cues right so I thought the parrying into death had to do with the merging of worlds rather than Cloud's crazy rear end. I think it's kinda a mixture of both? Stuff like Cloud seeing the rift in the sky when it isn't there reads like Cloud's getting mental interference from other worlds. Harrow posted:I regret reading this thread because I think I've been talked into believing the "Aerith's alive in another timeline" theory over "Cloud is seeing Aerith's ghost" theory and I gotta be honest, I really, really hate that. Like a lot. To the degree that I find it difficult to put into words how dumb I think that is, both as an ending for this game and a setup for the next. I don't know if I buy that theory tbqh Augus fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Mar 17, 2024 |
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Mar 17, 2024 00:17
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Even if there is an Aerth in another timeline, I don't think it is our Aerith. I'm pretty sure she is 100% for real dead. The last scene is her saying goodbye to her friends. I do think she'll show up again but I really, really, really don't think they're bullshitting us with Aerith being dead. She's dead. She is just also the last member of an ancient race of magical beings who canonically remain in the lifestream for some time after their death and are able to communicate and influence with the real world in some fashion. (Which is also true of FF7.) poo poo "Aerith and Zack's ghosts encourage and help Cloud" is how Advent Children ends.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:21
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also the setup is deliberately ambiguous so it's not really worth definitively picking an explanation and getting mad about it
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Mar 17, 2024 00:24
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ImpAtom posted:Even if there is an Aerth in another timeline, I don't think it is our Aerith. I'm pretty sure she is 100% for real dead. The last scene is her saying goodbye to her friends. Well right, this is why I like the "Aerith's a ghost" read better. It's consistent with how we know the Lifestream works, and how we see both Aerith and Zack in Advent Children. And yeah, Aerith would absolutely be the one to be able to maintain her presence and identity within the Lifestream and be able to continue to act. That was my initial read on Sephiroth's "I underestimated you" to her--that he was surprised and a little impressed that she could hold herself together in the Lifestream like he did. But god, all the rainbow color stuff, Tifa possibly seeing both versions of events, Cloud seeing the rift in the sky at the end, etc., all of that really seems to point to Aerith being alive, just in another timeline (with her own other Cloud, Tifa, Barret, etc.? I mean, if it's a whole other timeline, there should be versions of everyone else, right?), and not in the Lifestream ghost sense, but in the "Cloud succeeded at saving her but it didn't stick in our timeline for timey-wimey reasons" sense. I dunno. I think I'm always going to wish we'd gotten a remake that didn't have these timeline multiverse elements, no matter how this all shakes out. It's going to bug me for as much of the rest of my life as I care about FF7, however long that ends up being. Not a 1:1 remake, not a remake with limited or no changes, not at all, just not one with... this.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:29
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ImpAtom posted:Even if there is an Aerth in another timeline, I don't think it is our Aerith. I'm pretty sure she is 100% for real dead. The last scene is her saying goodbye to her friends. Yeah, that's what I got out of it too. She explicitly mentions working to stop Meteor, and that only works if she's back in the lifestream.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:30
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Augus posted:I don't know if I buy that theory tbqh i do, and it's good the aerith cloud interacts with in the ending is the dead one for one track, but in another, cloud successfully diverted the blade and she wakes up. zack's final line about "why can't worlds unite again" (reunion, in other words) leaves open the possibility that we might be able to bring one over to the other
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Mar 17, 2024 00:31
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Augus posted:also the setup is deliberately ambiguous so it's not really worth definitively picking an explanation and getting mad about it The last scene is her wandering around the ground, seemingly unnoticed by everyone except Cloud and briefly Red XIII (the animal guy who is closely associated with the Planet as well.) She shows no signs of being actual part of the world, such as not responding to the backfire of the Tiny Bronco. She talks to Cloud in a way that is pretty easy to read as her saying goodbye post-death and the last shot is her standing sadly there saying "goodbye." Like in a vacuum maybe I could buy it being ambiguous but we know for a fact that Aerith continues to fight in the lifestream after her death even in the original game and it is her prayer in the lifestream that saves the planet in the original game. She's going off to do that. All the other stuff is Cloud's Brain Bad or building up for the inevitable super epic megaboss that we're going to fight at the end of Part 3 when Sephiroth attempts to devour the timestream or something and everyone comes back to beat him up in a cool epic fight that occurs... I don't know, let's say on Meteor itself. Like "there is an Aerith in another timeline" is maybe a thing. There's a Marlene and an Elmyra and a Kyrie in another timeline, there's probably one out there were Aerith isn't dead. I just don't think it will be relevant to the story because like... what's the outcome going to be in that situation? Even if you think they're angling for an extra happy ending for Zack and Aerith, "Zack and Aerith are alive in another timeline" is presumably true no matter what because timelines. I also admit that I just have no reason to doubt their statement that the story will lead to Advent Children and that literally relies on Aerith and Zack being extremely fuckin' dead.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:37
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I mean, Cloud is very explicitly seeing timeline fuckery in some capacity in the ending
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Mar 17, 2024 00:38
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Oxxidation posted:i do, and it's good Wakes up from what? If she didn’t get stabbed what is she waking up from
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Mar 17, 2024 00:39
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Augus posted:Wakes up from what? If she didn’t get stabbed what is she waking up from her consciousness is jetting around timelines and locales for the whole final chapter, it could be any number of things. she even thanks cloud for blocking the blade when she joins him for the last bout against sephiroth
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Mar 17, 2024 00:41
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Arist posted:I mean, Cloud is very explicitly seeing timeline fuckery in some capacity in the ending Oh, yeah, no, Cloud is absolutely seeing something weird, but I think it's the result of all the brain/soul fuckery. I just don't think it's that Aerth got stabbed and her soul teleported to another dimension where she also survived. Like one big thing I feel gets ignored is that there isn't a 'split timeline' there. Cloud saves Aerith, knocks the Masamune away, and then it flashes and Aerith collapses to the ground with the White Materia rolling away. But... the second part remains true from then on out. Aerith is always collapsed in Cloud's arms. Him seeing her talking and smiling vs everyone else seeing her corpse doesn't change that. Cloud can't have 'deflected the sword' because even if you're arguing there are two different timelines, why would Cloud be cradling her wounded body if he pulled off a perfect parry?
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Mar 17, 2024 00:43
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Augus posted:Wakes up from what? If she didn’t get stabbed what is she waking up from It's from the timeline where Sepiroth cast Sleep instead of Stab.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:43
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I don't know what you're talking about, Cloud is fine. He's okay. Let's get moving It's not a reunion, it's a homecoming
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Mar 17, 2024 00:49
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This is perhaps meaner than I should be, but I think they've been careless enough with red herrings and contradictions so far that I don't really think the way Aerith is lying in any given scene is relevant, because I don't trust that they put that much thought into it that went deeper than "it'd be a really striking image if she woke up in Cloud's arms in this shot."
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Mar 17, 2024 00:50
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ImpAtom posted:Oh, yeah, no, Cloud is absolutely seeing something weird, but I think it's the result of all the brain/soul fuckery. I just don't think it's that Aerth got stabbed and her soul teleported to another dimension where she also survived. she's not wounded in the scene where she wakes up - there's no blood, while the spreading bloodstain is the first image used to denote the timeline where she dies. she's unconscious and then she awakens more broadly i'm sticking with this theory because the question of whether aerith lives or dies and more broadly the intractability/malleability of canon have been the driving questions behind the remakes and this lets that conversation continue instead of falling into "ff7, but with more wutaian politics" for the third entry. i'm also strongly against writing off cloud's visions as "brain fuckery" because the remake's ending makes it clear that there's something extraordinary about him that's attracting edge-of-creation sephiroth's attention. if there are multiple sephiroths as SE stated, then one of them is doing the usual routine where he's trying to reduce cloud to just another thrall, but another is approaching him on more egalitarian terms, and that's because he's able to see and interact with other iterations of the Planet just as sephiroth can
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Mar 17, 2024 00:51
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Harrow posted:This is perhaps meaner than I should be, but I think they've been careless enough with red herrings and contradictions so far that I don't really think the way Aerith is lying in any given scene is relevant, because I don't trust that they put that much thought into it that went deeper than "it'd be a really striking image if she woke up in Cloud's arms in this shot." Like... I get what you're saying but I think it can't go both ways. It's hard for me buy that there's some ongoing incredibly subtle plot about multiple timelines denoated entirely by what cartoon dog appears in a background detail but also they didn't really think or care about how a character was lying down. Oxxidation posted:she's not wounded in the scene where she wakes up - there's no blood, while the spreading bloodstain is the first image used to denote the timeline where she dies. she's unconscious and then she awakens Why is she unconscious though? We see what happens in Cloud's mind/the other timeline/whatever: He blocks the sword and actually sends the Masamune flying, where it lands on the ground well away from the still-praying Aerith.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:51
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Harrow posted:This is perhaps meaner than I should be, but I think they've been careless enough with red herrings and contradictions so far that I don't really think the way Aerith is lying in any given scene is relevant, because I don't trust that they put that much thought into it that went deeper than "it'd be a really striking image if she woke up in Cloud's arms in this shot." Honestly, Aerith opening her eyes just brought to mind Biggs and Zack’s stories about waking up after they thought they were goners. The fact that Cloud is there I took as him mentally straddling between the living and Lifestream worlds.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:53
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ImpAtom posted:Like... I get what you're saying but I think it can't go both ways. It's hard for me buy that there's some ongoing incredibly subtle plot about multiple timelines denoated entirely by what cartoon dog appears in a background detail but also they didn't really think or care about how a character was lying down. That's what I mean when I say I'm probably being more unkind than I should be, yeah. Like you're probably right and I'm just in an uncharitable mood.
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Mar 17, 2024 00:53
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