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Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

TeenageArchipelago posted:

Looking forward to Medicare advantage for all

ah, a kamala supporter!

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gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007

RealityWarCriminal posted:

And the biggest joke of the night: an impeachment inquiry. Imagine believing something so baseless that has a zero chance of succeeding. But Republicans would rather fail at impeachment than succeed at anything else. (Laughter.)

Of course, the big news this week is two candidates clinched their parties’ nomination for president. One candidate is too old and mentally unfit to be president. The other is me. (Laughter and applause.)

i was very surprised that the republicans didn't constantly impeach biden just because they could. i guess it wasn't necessary.

Weembles
Apr 19, 2004

Nichael posted:

this poo poo is weird as hell

This is the least weird thing the democrats are doing.

Making an effort of presenting themselves as a sort of shadow congressional leadership is a good thing to do in an election year.

It only looks weird because we know they will just use it to get an extra day of summer vacation to go sign bombs to drop on gaza.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:


Tom Charity of CNN suspects a "deliberate echo of Margaret Thatcher in the way actress Imelda Staunton, who plays Dolores Umbridge, pronounces her cruel diktats with a passive-aggressive feminine sweetness.

i have never heard anyone describe margaret thatcher as speaking with passive aggressive feminine sweetness before and outside of this weirdly specific context am having trouble thinking i ever will again

SniperWoreConverse
Mar 20, 2010



Gun Saliva

Some Guy TT posted:

i observed while in china that bing actually seems to work significantly better under great firewall restrictions which leads me to believe that one of the evil communist rules heroic companies like google refuse to abide by is dont make search results shittier for no reason

either that or the mechanism that interlinks back and lets the tracking work is somehow blocked? gently caress if i know anything. The internet, a land of contrasts. Really as time goes on I can only assume i just have no fuckin idea what's going on at all and need to be put in the home myself.


VoicesCanBe posted:

Biden ran on a public option during the 2020 primary and then upon taking office he's never so much as even brought it up. Completely forgotten. On purpose of course.

biden the candidate vs biden the president was practically an alternate dimension UFO entity. Like fuckin qanon? an actual q or hyperspace being or whatever possessed him to implement those lies, which were lovely halfass policy planks in the first place.

Has biden done literally anything decent at all whatsoever?


galagazombie posted:

It explains banning tiktok. The idea that the livestock might have minds of their own and could arrive at the conclusion that “genocide bad” all on their own, is simply inconceivable to them. So it absolutely has to be a foreign conspiracy because they can’t imagine a world where the peasants don’t enthusiastically support projects like emptying the national treasury maintaining a mighty bastion of White Judeo-Christian civilization in the heart of Mohammedism for the benefit of the nobility.

yeah anything that's not more of this?


gimme the GOD drat candy posted:

i was very surprised that the republicans didn't constantly impeach biden just because they could. i guess it wasn't necessary.

wouldn't it injure them to seek an impeach, tho? if they're actively seeking the window shifting concept, where today's dems act like the republicans of 20 years ago, you don't want to impeach them and squabble too much. Let 'em get all poopy diapies and look like morons, they fail, you then win the election and go further right. Rinse and repeat. Right?

Every time they pull some poo poo like impeach Trump or pull ballots it makes them look dumb as poo poo and has no effect if you don't play that game and they get nowhere. Then you win correctly (or just actually cheat effectively like with bush) and are the legitimate voice of the people unlike the insane out of touch libs who can't get anything done and are actually bad. If you go around firing off impeachments it may actually come back to bite. Somebody could in theory actually notice and start wondering what the gently caress is going on back there. A little kayfabe might be important? dunno.

Some Guy TT
Aug 30, 2011

1stGear posted:

The date of the signing of the Magna Carta is important to remember so you can prevent your brother from doing any kind of legal chicanery.

genuinely kind of baffled why anyone outside england treats this as significantly democratic given that all it did was make it harder for the king to tax aristocrats so he had to start bullying peasants for their lunch money instead

Asproigerosis
Mar 13, 2013

insufferable
It is pretty funny that nobody talks about the destruction of Medicare anymore (unless your a dullard moron like trump that is oblivious to the con). It's almost as if the deep state is now full steam ahead with the Medicare advantage scam and now the whole they gonna take away your Medicare campaign tactic is verboten because it would lead to people looking around and asking questions about what this Medicare thing is that looks exactly like how you'd privatize medicare.

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Some Guy TT posted:

genuinely kind of baffled why anyone outside england treats this as significantly democratic given that all it did was make it harder for the king to tax aristocrats so he had to start bullying peasants for their lunch money instead

Liberal teleology, I would imagine. "March of progress" towards liberal capitalist democracy.

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

jesus, lol.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1769486467397484608

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

Asproigerosis posted:

It is pretty funny that nobody talks about the destruction of Medicare anymore (unless your a dullard moron like trump that is oblivious to the con). It's almost as if the deep state is now full steam ahead with the Medicare advantage scam and now the whole they gonna take away your Medicare campaign tactic is verboten because it would lead to people looking around and asking questions about what this Medicare thing is that looks exactly like how you'd privatize medicare.

it's called regulatory capture, sweatie

pencilhands
Aug 20, 2022

Liberals are the shittiest most pathetic people imaginable

Saraiguma
Oct 2, 2014

what did he actually say out of curiosity

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

Saraiguma posted:

what did he actually say out of curiosity

he was saying that china would eat our shorts in auto mfg. if he isn't reelected this year.

edit:

nazi tweet so the usual suspects can kill the messenger:

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1769346786408497358

Willa Rogers
Mar 11, 2005

lol:

https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1769506887098122473

https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1769455728941547695

ex post facho
Oct 25, 2007
the frontline doc on boeing is really good and shows things are going to get worse and worse as the rate of profit continues to fall

speng31b
May 8, 2010


Daou's transformation has been pretty incredible to watch

RadiRoot
Feb 3, 2007
a bloodbath in the capital. oh no. stop.

1glitch0
Sep 4, 2018

I DON'T GIVE A CRAP WHAT SHE BELIEVES THE HARRY POTTER BOOKS CHANGED MY LIFE #HUFFLEPUFF

and they wonder why people don't trust the media

PhilippAchtel
May 31, 2011

Scarabrae posted:

Joe Biden could try giving people money?

:whatfor:

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Willa Rogers posted:

he was saying that china would eat our shorts in auto mfg. if he isn't reelected this year.

edit:

nazi tweet so the usual suspects can kill the messenger:

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1769346786408497358

If it's alright, we were just discussing something like this in the Ukraine thread, so I'll crosspost why Trump specifically is a problem for them:


This is a problem with Trump Derangement Syndrome. Liberals have not been able to adequately explain why Trump is a threat, why he is "fascist" or what "fascism" is. Trump has been elected, held power, lost power, and yet... nothing more awful than usual happened. "Trumpism" is clearly not dictatorial, he barely used executive authority. So, no Fuhrer principle there. Trump did not dissolve cabinet, let alone whole ministries. Did a small group of extremists seize power and remake society against the popular will, or didn't they? If Trump is a fascist and this is how fascism worked, why the discrepancy?

We have to ask, what are "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism"?

Well, the answer, on top of all the usual reasons liberals are delusional about politics and history, is that in this case they have very specific delusions. How they think the Soviet Union worked, and the Third Reich, and pretty much every state (including their own) functions has been falsified. We don't have the time or space to go into all of the details, or even all of the how's and why's, but as you know liberalism exists to disguise class power, and neoliberalism takes it further by presenting the state as powerless. That's my simplification, others can expand on this if they want. The central problem is, they cannot reconcile how they believe these things work, based around historical examples, with any contemporary examples. This is compounded by the same liberals using historical comparison as a shorthand. Saddam Hussein is just like Hitler, Trump is just like Hitler, Putin is just like Hitler and Stalin. They obviously apply this to states as well as individuals, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, the Russian Federation, PRC and the even more nebulous "Islamofascism".

Yet, despite these constant comparisons, if Nazism works as they suppose, and as these states are just like the Third Reich, observation should bear that out, and it never has. I'll go further and say it never will. How they understand the Nazi Party took power, how they understand it used power, and how they understand the relationship between the use of that power and the German people, and on the German people, is central to their worldview. It's also never been replicated, anywhere, for what the greatest English historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, said was a very simple reason - it never happened.

Liberals have been taught a specific false history of the Third Reich, which does not actually explain the mechanics of the government or how it related to the public. When this is kept in the domain of the mythologized, half remembered, and not seriously examined by the average person, past, this is not a problem. "Hitler" is a signifiant, like "Napoleon" was to liberals before 1939, and "Pharaoh" was to liberals before 1815.

"Hitler" was capable of anything, and so the government of the Third Reich is not bound by what we agree are the usual limits of reality. Events could take place even though everyone opposed them, while everyone was at the same time totally unaware of them. A government could rule over 70 million people while being opposed by all of them, relying on an internal security service responsible for all of occupied Europe that peaked at 32 000 employees. The 523 000 Jews living in Germany in 1933 could disappear without anyone noticing or protesting. The Nazis won 37% of the vote in the last German election, yet they had 100% control of every aspect of public and private life, far beyond what we recognize governments are practically capable of in reality, immediately. In fact, the day to day function of this control has never been explained, nor does it have to be, because "Hitler" was capable of anything. At the same time, despite nearly 40% of the vote, no Germans supported the Nazis. Despite running in several elections, making wide use of the media, and propaganda "everywhere", no Germans were aware of their policies, programmes, or beliefs. "Hitler" is a signifiant.

You see, there is a problem with "Hitler". If "Hitler" is exceptional, which he must be, because everything above is not only an exception to the dynamics of any previous historical governments and societies, but also any examples since, how can "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" be defined almost exclusively through the rise of the Nazi Party and government of the Third Reich? The exception can't be the rule. You see the problem here. The case for "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" is the allegation that it's possible for an unpopular government to seize power, do whatever they want, with no public awareness, at the same time opposed by the entire public, with no participation by the public. For 80 years, liberals have said "it can happen here", but never explained how, other than "it happened there", if you get my meaning. "It", I really want to hammer this home, is basically agreed to be outside any understanding of how politics and society actually function.

Well, I won't bother picking apart the alleged models of "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism", because they aren't really models. They are a myth. They do not exist to explain what actually happened in the Third Reich, nor are they expected to have any predictive ability. They exist to explain, in 1946, why business in Germany can carry on as normal. "Hitler" was a magical departure from normalcy, as I said, the explanation defies all reason, and therefore with "Hitler" gone, Germany is restored to a liberal democracy as if nothing had ever happened. Because it was just one man, you see. Or one man and his cabinet. Or one man, his cabinet, and government. Or one man... and the 32 000 Gestapo... or one man...and at most the 910 000 or so members the Waffen SS peaked at, many of whom weren't German.

But you see, this still doesn't work. You know the train tracks going to Auschwitz? Including pensioners and the employees’ families, some three million people belonged to the “Reichsbahn-family”—about five percent of the population. Mail was delivered to and sent from the concentration camps, albeit not by prisoners. 631 000 people worked for the Reichspost in 1945. Every notable industry in German employed slave labour of some kind, often concentration camp prisoners. And again, 523 000 German Jews had disappeared. This is very difficult to explain as not only the actions of one man, party, criminal organization, but knowledge confined to them.

It is a magical belief. A fairy tale. I am being a hundred percent sincere. In On Fairy Stories, JRR Tolkien tells us what we need to know about the genuine article, but for the purposes of this argument I'll use the definition he discounts:

"What is a fairy-story? In this case you will turn to the Oxford English Dictionary in vain. It contains no reference to the combination fairy-story, and is unhelpful on the subject of fairies generally. In the Supplement, fairy-tale is recorded since the year 1750, and its leading sense is said to be (a) a tale about fairies, or generally a fairy legend; with developed senses, (b) an unreal or incredible story, and (c) a falsehood."

Do you know what the most popular theory for how the Third Reich functioned was before Arendt and company developed "totalitarianism", from whence the flowers of "fascism" and "authoritarianism" bloomed? Hypnotism. Read any book published before 1952 or so, and for many years after Arendt, incidentally, and you will see speculation that Adolf Hitler possessed hypnotic abilities that are attributed to either personal charisma, training in technique, or supernatural abilities. This appears almost constantly in denazification testimony as well. "Hitler had us under a spell", "we were mesmerized", "he could hypnotize people". This was a belief in (b) an incredible story, and (c) a falsehood. A fairy tale.

People took it seriously, of course. There are still pop writers who pay the bills by exploring Hitler's alleged magnetism. YouTube channels that explore his body language, or qualities of his voice. This was a good part of History Television's programming in the 1990's. For the lower brow, these magical properties are taken quite literally and so we have a cottage industry about the Nazis and the so-called occult. For the dateless and right wing, we have all sorts of treatises on Hitler's charismatic public speaking and dynamism and so on. The belief that Hitler and the Nazis had occult powers, or techniques that may as well be magical, or that there were crowd dynamics that transformed the individuals of the German public, who remained blameless and innocent, into something other than themselves, is a falsehood.

All of this works backwards from a single point - communism must be opposed, the German public, and the employees of the railways, post office and military are needed to oppose communism, and so, an explanation was invented. It was a fairy tale. It was accepted, because it had to be. By accepting an explanation at odds with reality, contradictions were created. These contradictions were such an obvious departure from reality that they were attributed to magic. Hypnotism, the occult, "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism".

This explanation, given those names, proved incredibly useful for other reasons after 1945. You do not have to understand, or try to understand any state given those names, because they are agreed to be magical. Men are fed to dogs. Mortars are used as a method of execution. The GULAG system only imprisons the innocent. Famines are intentional. If a state is called "fascist" "totalitarian" or "authoritarian", you can believe anything unreal or incredible said about them. The words are incantations that can be cast to apply to any state the liberals wishes to condemn. They don't even have to demonstrably work the same way as the Third Reich, be organized around a similar ideology, in fact they could be drastically different, say a government formed by Cuban peasants rather than the German industrial middle class, and that comparison does not strain the definition because the workings of both states are magic. This is consistent with the definition Tolkien was more satisfied by:

"Faërie: the Perilous Realm itself, and the air that blows in that country.

I will not attempt to define that, nor to describe it directly. It cannot be done. Faërie cannot be caught in a net of words; for it is one of its qualities to be indescribable, though not imperceptible. It has many ingredients, but analysis will not necessarily discover the secret of the whole."

States described as "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" do not have to have any defined or shared qualities. The winds of magic blow in those lands, and so to the liberal, they are the leading European industrial power a generation after a devastating and humiliating war, with the industrialist class trying to contain worker unrest and allying with the aristocracy and middle class, even when they are Islamic scholars and students in the Hindu Kush, frustrated with the KSA and reading the works of Sayyid Qutb and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. They are the same thing because they possess "indescribable, though not imperceptible" qualities - chiefly that liberals don't like them. Secondarily, if apparent at all to liberals, that they were both instrumentalized to fight communism.

Finally, the real magic of "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" is that the spells work outside of fairyland. They work in domestic politics too. Their names can be evoked, whenever required, to be a signifiant for what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything. They do not need to bear any resemblance to any historical case, because it is not a historical model. It is a fairy story. So, it is the most important election of our lifetime, because we need to prevent fascism, led by the man who was already President. He will do things in his discontinuous second term that he did not, could not, do in his first term, because he is magic. His beliefs do not even superficially resemble the ideology of the Nazi Party, but they are the same thing, through magic. Examination and comparison holds no purchase here. Trump does not have to behave like Adolf Hitler, because "Hitler" will always be remembered as behaving like Donald Trump. And Vladimir Putin. And Osama Bin Ladin. That is the magic of it all.

Liberals need to believe that Trump could be elected tomorrow, be however unpopular, not even hold both chambers of the legislature, and still deport people to death camps. This would not reflect what anyone wanted, or supported, or participated in. It could happen by rail, either without the knowledge and participation of the 138 800 employees of the railway industry, or by casting them under his spell, because that is the fairy tale they told themselves about the employees of the German railway industry. That's the beauty of it. Trump is all of the bad words, and so he will do all of the bad things through magic. The impossibility of this happening the way they say it will does not diminish their belief that this has happened or will happen, because just like the Once and Future king is spirited away to the fairyland of Avalon, "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" was and will be (whatever they them need to be. German society relieved of guilt and returning to work, YBNMW).

The one good liberal historian to write on Fascism and provide a materially grounded definition, Paxton, who wrote The Anatomy of Fascism, made the mistake of providing a coherent model on a country by country basis. Every movement from Romania, to Croatia, to Italy. Germany was included, of course, but Paxton was not trying to define fascism by working backwards from a justification for placing Wehrmacht officers on the NATO General Staff. The problem with Paxton's model, and well reviewed book, was that a coherent and grounded book, as Tolkien said, is not a satisfying fairy story. Specifically, by defining fascism as a process, like any other political process, in terms of class, economic interests, power, and so on, and not an evil spell falling over the land, Paxton stripped Hitler, or "Hitler" rather, of his uniqueness, because Horia Sima in Romania and Ferenc Szálasi in Hungary both led similar movements, and with the emigres dead and communism defeated, it was safe to admit, committed similar crimes. Hitler could be a uniquely hypnotic and charismatic speaker, or occult magician, if he was a lone figure in world history, but when there were several leaders, in rinky dink countries like Latvia, and who people had never heard of, it was harder to believe in a dark magician commanding a nation. Still, liberals could dispense with this for the time being, because after 1991, there was really no need. The story had served its purpose and outlasted the DDR and USSR.

Liberals accepted Paxton's work. It made them a bit uncomfortable, particularly where New Europe was concerned. They expressed liking Arendt's story better, and of course who doesn't prefer reading about Prince Hal and Falstaff compared to tax records of the court of Henry V? They also liked showing their command of middlebrow history and openness to historical revisionism, so the book sold well. Think of it a bit like if liberals kept a book by Reza Aslan on "The Historical Hitler" on their coffee table. "Did you know that fascism actually involved the enthusiastic participation of the middle class?" "No, I didn't. Fascinating!" The model was fine because they had no use for it. The emigres were dead, the Soviets were gone, there was only one Germany.

Well, along comes 2016. Here is the problem, in brief, if you've read this far: Donald Trump, and his voters, whatever you see on MSNBC are clearly not fascist, in a meaningful sense. They're "bad", "scary", whatever, but fascism is not a synonym for "thing I don't like". Not a surprise to this thread, which was called "Rascist" or told "Tankies" and "Fascists" are the same thing. Which is a great example of the magic, by the way. The people deploying tanks to suppress Arrow Cross veterans rising up to lynch Jews and communists (but I repeat myself) and the Arrow Cross members doing it are the same. The winds of magic blew in Hungary in 1956, so the actual reason for intervention is unknown and unknowable. Trump sucks, but Paxton's definition showed, with alarming clarity, what he was not, could not be, fascist. He didn't use state authority, and had no theory of its use, so authoritarian was out too. Trump made no effort to totalize American society, aside from spectacle and culture war, politics has never been less important to American life. Paxton compounded his error by explaining himself in interviews, as overnight he was in extremely high demand. The media wanted to hear from him 11 years after his book was published, every author's dream. Specifically, they wanted to hear that Trump was a fascist, Trump voters the Nazi Party (despite not being a party, not being organized, not being a mass movement of any kind etc.) Well, Paxton listed all of the reasons this was not true, because he thought the people asking wanted to know about the historical political movements from 1919-1946. They did not, they wanted to hear the fairy story about "fascism" again, so that the signifiant could be invoked - what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything.

Eventually, Paxton gave in, and started saying that, yes, actually, come to think of it, Trump was a fascist. This ruined the coherence and explanatory power of his own work but it made him very popular. This brings us full circle to why Trump Derangement Syndrome and the lie we encouraged Germans to tell in 1946 coexist in a sort of unreality. If Trump is Hitler, and the Trump presidency, which has already happened and will happen again, is the Third Reich, the events of the Second World War can only be understood to have happened through magic.

Orange Man Bad quondam, Orange Man Bad futurus.

Automata 10 Pack
Jun 21, 2007

Ten games published by Automata, on one cassette
https://x.com/ngrossman81/status/1769424145987641807?s=46

bedpan
Apr 23, 2008


International Relations prof at U. Illinois. Senior Editor @ArcDigi. Author “Drones and Terrorism.” Politics, national security, and occasional nerdery.

Danann
Aug 4, 2013

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

If it's alright, we were just discussing something like this in the Ukraine thread, so I'll crosspost why Trump specifically is a problem for them:

This is a problem with Trump Derangement Syndrome. Liberals have not been able to adequately explain why Trump is a threat, why he is "fascist" or what "fascism" is. Trump has been elected, held power, lost power, and yet... nothing more awful than usual happened. "Trumpism" is clearly not dictatorial, he barely used executive authority. So, no Fuhrer principle there. Trump did not dissolve cabinet, let alone whole ministries. Did a small group of extremists seize power and remake society against the popular will, or didn't they? If Trump is a fascist and this is how fascism worked, why the discrepancy?

We have to ask, what are "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism"?

Well, the answer, on top of all the usual reasons liberals are delusional about politics and history, is that in this case they have very specific delusions. How they think the Soviet Union worked, and the Third Reich, and pretty much every state (including their own) functions has been falsified. We don't have the time or space to go into all of the details, or even all of the how's and why's, but as you know liberalism exists to disguise class power, and neoliberalism takes it further by presenting the state as powerless. That's my simplification, others can expand on this if they want. The central problem is, they cannot reconcile how they believe these things work, based around historical examples, with any contemporary examples. This is compounded by the same liberals using historical comparison as a shorthand. Saddam Hussein is just like Hitler, Trump is just like Hitler, Putin is just like Hitler and Stalin. They obviously apply this to states as well as individuals, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, the Russian Federation, PRC and the even more nebulous "Islamofascism".

Yet, despite these constant comparisons, if Nazism works as they suppose, and as these states are just like the Third Reich, observation should bear that out, and it never has. I'll go further and say it never will. How they understand the Nazi Party took power, how they understand it used power, and how they understand the relationship between the use of that power and the German people, and on the German people, is central to their worldview. It's also never been replicated, anywhere, for what the greatest English historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, said was a very simple reason - it never happened.

Liberals have been taught a specific false history of the Third Reich, which does not actually explain the mechanics of the government or how it related to the public. When this is kept in the domain of the mythologized, half remembered, and not seriously examined by the average person, past, this is not a problem. "Hitler" is a signifiant, like "Napoleon" was to liberals before 1939, and "Pharaoh" was to liberals before 1815.

"Hitler" was capable of anything, and so the government of the Third Reich is not bound by what we agree are the usual limits of reality. Events could take place even though everyone opposed them, while everyone was at the same time totally unaware of them. A government could rule over 70 million people while being opposed by all of them, relying on an internal security service responsible for all of occupied Europe that peaked at 32 000 employees. The 523 000 Jews living in Germany in 1933 could disappear without anyone noticing or protesting. The Nazis won 37% of the vote in the last German election, yet they had 100% control of every aspect of public and private life, far beyond what we recognize governments are practically capable of in reality, immediately. In fact, the day to day function of this control has never been explained, nor does it have to be, because "Hitler" was capable of anything. At the same time, despite nearly 40% of the vote, no Germans supported the Nazis. Despite running in several elections, making wide use of the media, and propaganda "everywhere", no Germans were aware of their policies, programmes, or beliefs. "Hitler" is a signifiant.

You see, there is a problem with "Hitler". If "Hitler" is exceptional, which he must be, because everything above is not only an exception to the dynamics of any previous historical governments and societies, but also any examples since, how can "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" be defined almost exclusively through the rise of the Nazi Party and government of the Third Reich? The exception can't be the rule. You see the problem here. The case for "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" is the allegation that it's possible for an unpopular government to seize power, do whatever they want, with no public awareness, at the same time opposed by the entire public, with no participation by the public. For 80 years, liberals have said "it can happen here", but never explained how, other than "it happened there", if you get my meaning. "It", I really want to hammer this home, is basically agreed to be outside any understanding of how politics and society actually function.

Well, I won't bother picking apart the alleged models of "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism", because they aren't really models. They are a myth. They do not exist to explain what actually happened in the Third Reich, nor are they expected to have any predictive ability. They exist to explain, in 1946, why business in Germany can carry on as normal. "Hitler" was a magical departure from normalcy, as I said, the explanation defies all reason, and therefore with "Hitler" gone, Germany is restored to a liberal democracy as if nothing had ever happened. Because it was just one man, you see. Or one man and his cabinet. Or one man, his cabinet, and government. Or one man... and the 32 000 Gestapo... or one man...and at most the 910 000 or so members the Waffen SS peaked at, many of whom weren't German.

But you see, this still doesn't work. You know the train tracks going to Auschwitz? Including pensioners and the employees’ families, some three million people belonged to the “Reichsbahn-family”—about five percent of the population. Mail was delivered to and sent from the concentration camps, albeit not by prisoners. 631 000 people worked for the Reichspost in 1945. Every notable industry in German employed slave labour of some kind, often concentration camp prisoners. And again, 523 000 German Jews had disappeared. This is very difficult to explain as not only the actions of one man, party, criminal organization, but knowledge confined to them.

It is a magical belief. A fairy tale. I am being a hundred percent sincere. In On Fairy Stories, JRR Tolkien tells us what we need to know about the genuine article, but for the purposes of this argument I'll use the definition he discounts:

"What is a fairy-story? In this case you will turn to the Oxford English Dictionary in vain. It contains no reference to the combination fairy-story, and is unhelpful on the subject of fairies generally. In the Supplement, fairy-tale is recorded since the year 1750, and its leading sense is said to be (a) a tale about fairies, or generally a fairy legend; with developed senses, (b) an unreal or incredible story, and (c) a falsehood."

Do you know what the most popular theory for how the Third Reich functioned was before Arendt and company developed "totalitarianism", from whence the flowers of "fascism" and "authoritarianism" bloomed? Hypnotism. Read any book published before 1952 or so, and for many years after Arendt, incidentally, and you will see speculation that Adolf Hitler possessed hypnotic abilities that are attributed to either personal charisma, training in technique, or supernatural abilities. This appears almost constantly in denazification testimony as well. "Hitler had us under a spell", "we were mesmerized", "he could hypnotize people". This was a belief in (b) an incredible story, and (c) a falsehood. A fairy tale.

People took it seriously, of course. There are still pop writers who pay the bills by exploring Hitler's alleged magnetism. YouTube channels that explore his body language, or qualities of his voice. This was a good part of History Television's programming in the 1990's. For the lower brow, these magical properties are taken quite literally and so we have a cottage industry about the Nazis and the so-called occult. For the dateless and right wing, we have all sorts of treatises on Hitler's charismatic public speaking and dynamism and so on. The belief that Hitler and the Nazis had occult powers, or techniques that may as well be magical, or that there were crowd dynamics that transformed the individuals of the German public, who remained blameless and innocent, into something other than themselves, is a falsehood.

All of this works backwards from a single point - communism must be opposed, the German public, and the employees of the railways, post office and military are needed to oppose communism, and so, an explanation was invented. It was a fairy tale. It was accepted, because it had to be. By accepting an explanation at odds with reality, contradictions were created. These contradictions were such an obvious departure from reality that they were attributed to magic. Hypnotism, the occult, "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism".

This explanation, given those names, proved incredibly useful for other reasons after 1945. You do not have to understand, or try to understand any state given those names, because they are agreed to be magical. Men are fed to dogs. Mortars are used as a method of execution. The GULAG system only imprisons the innocent. Famines are intentional. If a state is called "fascist" "totalitarian" or "authoritarian", you can believe anything unreal or incredible said about them. The words are incantations that can be cast to apply to any state the liberals wishes to condemn. They don't even have to demonstrably work the same way as the Third Reich, be organized around a similar ideology, in fact they could be drastically different, say a government formed by Cuban peasants rather than the German industrial middle class, and that comparison does not strain the definition because the workings of both states are magic. This is consistent with the definition Tolkien was more satisfied by:

"Faërie: the Perilous Realm itself, and the air that blows in that country.

I will not attempt to define that, nor to describe it directly. It cannot be done. Faërie cannot be caught in a net of words; for it is one of its qualities to be indescribable, though not imperceptible. It has many ingredients, but analysis will not necessarily discover the secret of the whole."

States described as "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" do not have to have any defined or shared qualities. The winds of magic blow in those lands, and so to the liberal, they are the leading European industrial power a generation after a devastating and humiliating war, with the industrialist class trying to contain worker unrest and allying with the aristocracy and middle class, even when they are Islamic scholars and students in the Hindu Kush, frustrated with the KSA and reading the works of Sayyid Qutb and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. They are the same thing because they possess "indescribable, though not imperceptible" qualities - chiefly that liberals don't like them. Secondarily, if apparent at all to liberals, that they were both instrumentalized to fight communism.

Finally, the real magic of "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" is that the spells work outside of fairyland. They work in domestic politics too. Their names can be evoked, whenever required, to be a signifiant for what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything. They do not need to bear any resemblance to any historical case, because it is not a historical model. It is a fairy story. So, it is the most important election of our lifetime, because we need to prevent fascism, led by the man who was already President. He will do things in his discontinuous second term that he did not, could not, do in his first term, because he is magic. His beliefs do not even superficially resemble the ideology of the Nazi Party, but they are the same thing, through magic. Examination and comparison holds no purchase here. Trump does not have to behave like Adolf Hitler, because "Hitler" will always be remembered as behaving like Donald Trump. And Vladimir Putin. And Osama Bin Ladin. That is the magic of it all.

Liberals need to believe that Trump could be elected tomorrow, be however unpopular, not even hold both chambers of the legislature, and still deport people to death camps. This would not reflect what anyone wanted, or supported, or participated in. It could happen by rail, either without the knowledge and participation of the 138 800 employees of the railway industry, or by casting them under his spell, because that is the fairy tale they told themselves about the employees of the German railway industry. That's the beauty of it. Trump is all of the bad words, and so he will do all of the bad things through magic. The impossibility of this happening the way they say it will does not diminish their belief that this has happened or will happen, because just like the Once and Future king is spirited away to the fairyland of Avalon, "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" was and will be (whatever they them need to be. German society relieved of guilt and returning to work, YBNMW).

The one good liberal historian to write on Fascism and provide a materially grounded definition, Paxton, who wrote The Anatomy of Fascism, made the mistake of providing a coherent model on a country by country basis. Every movement from Romania, to Croatia, to Italy. Germany was included, of course, but Paxton was not trying to define fascism by working backwards from a justification for placing Wehrmacht officers on the NATO General Staff. The problem with Paxton's model, and well reviewed book, was that a coherent and grounded book, as Tolkien said, is not a satisfying fairy story. Specifically, by defining fascism as a process, like any other political process, in terms of class, economic interests, power, and so on, and not an evil spell falling over the land, Paxton stripped Hitler, or "Hitler" rather, of his uniqueness, because Horia Sima in Romania and Ferenc Szálasi in Hungary both led similar movements, and with the emigres dead and communism defeated, it was safe to admit, committed similar crimes. Hitler could be a uniquely hypnotic and charismatic speaker, or occult magician, if he was a lone figure in world history, but when there were several leaders, in rinky dink countries like Latvia, and who people had never heard of, it was harder to believe in a dark magician commanding a nation. Still, liberals could dispense with this for the time being, because after 1991, there was really no need. The story had served its purpose and outlasted the DDR and USSR.

Liberals accepted Paxton's work. It made them a bit uncomfortable, particularly where New Europe was concerned. They expressed liking Arendt's story better, and of course who doesn't prefer reading about Prince Hal and Falstaff compared to tax records of the court of Henry V? They also liked showing their command of middlebrow history and openness to historical revisionism, so the book sold well. Think of it a bit like if liberals kept a book by Reza Aslan on "The Historical Hitler" on their coffee table. "Did you know that fascism actually involved the enthusiastic participation of the middle class?" "No, I didn't. Fascinating!" The model was fine because they had no use for it. The emigres were dead, the Soviets were gone, there was only one Germany.

Well, along comes 2016. Here is the problem, in brief, if you've read this far: Donald Trump, and his voters, whatever you see on MSNBC are clearly not fascist, in a meaningful sense. They're "bad", "scary", whatever, but fascism is not a synonym for "thing I don't like". Not a surprise to this thread, which was called "Rascist" or told "Tankies" and "Fascists" are the same thing. Which is a great example of the magic, by the way. The people deploying tanks to suppress Arrow Cross veterans rising up to lynch Jews and communists (but I repeat myself) and the Arrow Cross members doing it are the same. The winds of magic blew in Hungary in 1956, so the actual reason for intervention is unknown and unknowable. Trump sucks, but Paxton's definition showed, with alarming clarity, what he was not, could not be, fascist. He didn't use state authority, and had no theory of its use, so authoritarian was out too. Trump made no effort to totalize American society, aside from spectacle and culture war, politics has never been less important to American life. Paxton compounded his error by explaining himself in interviews, as overnight he was in extremely high demand. The media wanted to hear from him 11 years after his book was published, every author's dream. Specifically, they wanted to hear that Trump was a fascist, Trump voters the Nazi Party (despite not being a party, not being organized, not being a mass movement of any kind etc.) Well, Paxton listed all of the reasons this was not true, because he thought the people asking wanted to know about the historical political movements from 1919-1946. They did not, they wanted to hear the fairy story about "fascism" again, so that the signifiant could be invoked - what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything.

Eventually, Paxton gave in, and started saying that, yes, actually, come to think of it, Trump was a fascist. This ruined the coherence and explanatory power of his own work but it made him very popular. This brings us full circle to why Trump Derangement Syndrome and the lie we encouraged Germans to tell in 1946 coexist in a sort of unreality. If Trump is Hitler, and the Trump presidency, which has already happened and will happen again, is the Third Reich, the events of the Second World War can only be understood to have happened through magic.

Orange Man Bad quondam, Orange Man Bad futurus.

Butter Activities
May 4, 2018

Getting hard as gently caress blowing up Pashtun weddings, but progressively

Danann
Aug 4, 2013

bedpan posted:

International Relations prof at U. Illinois. Senior Editor @ArcDigi. Author “Drones and Terrorism.” Politics, national security, and occasional nerdery.

another International Relations banger

fits my needs
Jan 1, 2011

Grimey Drawer
https://x.com/POTUS/status/1769532934409560531?s=20

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

loquacius posted:

I mean

Yes

The Vietnam war is LBJ's legacy and biggest blunder. It is universally agreed. What is wrong with these people
What really confirms this is the LBJ museum, fully half of it is devoted to arguing the war is everyone's else's fault but his and how awful and unfair it was to protest it outside the White House because it hurt his daughter's feelings to hear her dad called a babykiller.

Even they can't find a way to say the war wasn't that bad of an idea

Nichael
Mar 30, 2011



I think it is a real issue that he continually murders children.

ArmedZombie
Jun 6, 2004

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

If it's alright, we were just discussing something like this in the Ukraine thread, so I'll crosspost why Trump specifically is a problem for them:

This is a problem with Trump Derangement Syndrome. Liberals have not been able to adequately explain why Trump is a threat, why he is "fascist" or what "fascism" is. Trump has been elected, held power, lost power, and yet... nothing more awful than usual happened. "Trumpism" is clearly not dictatorial, he barely used executive authority. So, no Fuhrer principle there. Trump did not dissolve cabinet, let alone whole ministries. Did a small group of extremists seize power and remake society against the popular will, or didn't they? If Trump is a fascist and this is how fascism worked, why the discrepancy?

We have to ask, what are "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism"?

Well, the answer, on top of all the usual reasons liberals are delusional about politics and history, is that in this case they have very specific delusions. How they think the Soviet Union worked, and the Third Reich, and pretty much every state (including their own) functions has been falsified. We don't have the time or space to go into all of the details, or even all of the how's and why's, but as you know liberalism exists to disguise class power, and neoliberalism takes it further by presenting the state as powerless. That's my simplification, others can expand on this if they want. The central problem is, they cannot reconcile how they believe these things work, based around historical examples, with any contemporary examples. This is compounded by the same liberals using historical comparison as a shorthand. Saddam Hussein is just like Hitler, Trump is just like Hitler, Putin is just like Hitler and Stalin. They obviously apply this to states as well as individuals, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, the Russian Federation, PRC and the even more nebulous "Islamofascism".

Yet, despite these constant comparisons, if Nazism works as they suppose, and as these states are just like the Third Reich, observation should bear that out, and it never has. I'll go further and say it never will. How they understand the Nazi Party took power, how they understand it used power, and how they understand the relationship between the use of that power and the German people, and on the German people, is central to their worldview. It's also never been replicated, anywhere, for what the greatest English historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, said was a very simple reason - it never happened.

Liberals have been taught a specific false history of the Third Reich, which does not actually explain the mechanics of the government or how it related to the public. When this is kept in the domain of the mythologized, half remembered, and not seriously examined by the average person, past, this is not a problem. "Hitler" is a signifiant, like "Napoleon" was to liberals before 1939, and "Pharaoh" was to liberals before 1815.

"Hitler" was capable of anything, and so the government of the Third Reich is not bound by what we agree are the usual limits of reality. Events could take place even though everyone opposed them, while everyone was at the same time totally unaware of them. A government could rule over 70 million people while being opposed by all of them, relying on an internal security service responsible for all of occupied Europe that peaked at 32 000 employees. The 523 000 Jews living in Germany in 1933 could disappear without anyone noticing or protesting. The Nazis won 37% of the vote in the last German election, yet they had 100% control of every aspect of public and private life, far beyond what we recognize governments are practically capable of in reality, immediately. In fact, the day to day function of this control has never been explained, nor does it have to be, because "Hitler" was capable of anything. At the same time, despite nearly 40% of the vote, no Germans supported the Nazis. Despite running in several elections, making wide use of the media, and propaganda "everywhere", no Germans were aware of their policies, programmes, or beliefs. "Hitler" is a signifiant.

You see, there is a problem with "Hitler". If "Hitler" is exceptional, which he must be, because everything above is not only an exception to the dynamics of any previous historical governments and societies, but also any examples since, how can "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" be defined almost exclusively through the rise of the Nazi Party and government of the Third Reich? The exception can't be the rule. You see the problem here. The case for "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" is the allegation that it's possible for an unpopular government to seize power, do whatever they want, with no public awareness, at the same time opposed by the entire public, with no participation by the public. For 80 years, liberals have said "it can happen here", but never explained how, other than "it happened there", if you get my meaning. "It", I really want to hammer this home, is basically agreed to be outside any understanding of how politics and society actually function.

Well, I won't bother picking apart the alleged models of "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism", because they aren't really models. They are a myth. They do not exist to explain what actually happened in the Third Reich, nor are they expected to have any predictive ability. They exist to explain, in 1946, why business in Germany can carry on as normal. "Hitler" was a magical departure from normalcy, as I said, the explanation defies all reason, and therefore with "Hitler" gone, Germany is restored to a liberal democracy as if nothing had ever happened. Because it was just one man, you see. Or one man and his cabinet. Or one man, his cabinet, and government. Or one man... and the 32 000 Gestapo... or one man...and at most the 910 000 or so members the Waffen SS peaked at, many of whom weren't German.

But you see, this still doesn't work. You know the train tracks going to Auschwitz? Including pensioners and the employees’ families, some three million people belonged to the “Reichsbahn-family”—about five percent of the population. Mail was delivered to and sent from the concentration camps, albeit not by prisoners. 631 000 people worked for the Reichspost in 1945. Every notable industry in German employed slave labour of some kind, often concentration camp prisoners. And again, 523 000 German Jews had disappeared. This is very difficult to explain as not only the actions of one man, party, criminal organization, but knowledge confined to them.

It is a magical belief. A fairy tale. I am being a hundred percent sincere. In On Fairy Stories, JRR Tolkien tells us what we need to know about the genuine article, but for the purposes of this argument I'll use the definition he discounts:

"What is a fairy-story? In this case you will turn to the Oxford English Dictionary in vain. It contains no reference to the combination fairy-story, and is unhelpful on the subject of fairies generally. In the Supplement, fairy-tale is recorded since the year 1750, and its leading sense is said to be (a) a tale about fairies, or generally a fairy legend; with developed senses, (b) an unreal or incredible story, and (c) a falsehood."

Do you know what the most popular theory for how the Third Reich functioned was before Arendt and company developed "totalitarianism", from whence the flowers of "fascism" and "authoritarianism" bloomed? Hypnotism. Read any book published before 1952 or so, and for many years after Arendt, incidentally, and you will see speculation that Adolf Hitler possessed hypnotic abilities that are attributed to either personal charisma, training in technique, or supernatural abilities. This appears almost constantly in denazification testimony as well. "Hitler had us under a spell", "we were mesmerized", "he could hypnotize people". This was a belief in (b) an incredible story, and (c) a falsehood. A fairy tale.

People took it seriously, of course. There are still pop writers who pay the bills by exploring Hitler's alleged magnetism. YouTube channels that explore his body language, or qualities of his voice. This was a good part of History Television's programming in the 1990's. For the lower brow, these magical properties are taken quite literally and so we have a cottage industry about the Nazis and the so-called occult. For the dateless and right wing, we have all sorts of treatises on Hitler's charismatic public speaking and dynamism and so on. The belief that Hitler and the Nazis had occult powers, or techniques that may as well be magical, or that there were crowd dynamics that transformed the individuals of the German public, who remained blameless and innocent, into something other than themselves, is a falsehood.

All of this works backwards from a single point - communism must be opposed, the German public, and the employees of the railways, post office and military are needed to oppose communism, and so, an explanation was invented. It was a fairy tale. It was accepted, because it had to be. By accepting an explanation at odds with reality, contradictions were created. These contradictions were such an obvious departure from reality that they were attributed to magic. Hypnotism, the occult, "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism".

This explanation, given those names, proved incredibly useful for other reasons after 1945. You do not have to understand, or try to understand any state given those names, because they are agreed to be magical. Men are fed to dogs. Mortars are used as a method of execution. The GULAG system only imprisons the innocent. Famines are intentional. If a state is called "fascist" "totalitarian" or "authoritarian", you can believe anything unreal or incredible said about them. The words are incantations that can be cast to apply to any state the liberals wishes to condemn. They don't even have to demonstrably work the same way as the Third Reich, be organized around a similar ideology, in fact they could be drastically different, say a government formed by Cuban peasants rather than the German industrial middle class, and that comparison does not strain the definition because the workings of both states are magic. This is consistent with the definition Tolkien was more satisfied by:

"Faërie: the Perilous Realm itself, and the air that blows in that country.

I will not attempt to define that, nor to describe it directly. It cannot be done. Faërie cannot be caught in a net of words; for it is one of its qualities to be indescribable, though not imperceptible. It has many ingredients, but analysis will not necessarily discover the secret of the whole."

States described as "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" do not have to have any defined or shared qualities. The winds of magic blow in those lands, and so to the liberal, they are the leading European industrial power a generation after a devastating and humiliating war, with the industrialist class trying to contain worker unrest and allying with the aristocracy and middle class, even when they are Islamic scholars and students in the Hindu Kush, frustrated with the KSA and reading the works of Sayyid Qutb and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. They are the same thing because they possess "indescribable, though not imperceptible" qualities - chiefly that liberals don't like them. Secondarily, if apparent at all to liberals, that they were both instrumentalized to fight communism.

Finally, the real magic of "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" is that the spells work outside of fairyland. They work in domestic politics too. Their names can be evoked, whenever required, to be a signifiant for what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything. They do not need to bear any resemblance to any historical case, because it is not a historical model. It is a fairy story. So, it is the most important election of our lifetime, because we need to prevent fascism, led by the man who was already President. He will do things in his discontinuous second term that he did not, could not, do in his first term, because he is magic. His beliefs do not even superficially resemble the ideology of the Nazi Party, but they are the same thing, through magic. Examination and comparison holds no purchase here. Trump does not have to behave like Adolf Hitler, because "Hitler" will always be remembered as behaving like Donald Trump. And Vladimir Putin. And Osama Bin Ladin. That is the magic of it all.

Liberals need to believe that Trump could be elected tomorrow, be however unpopular, not even hold both chambers of the legislature, and still deport people to death camps. This would not reflect what anyone wanted, or supported, or participated in. It could happen by rail, either without the knowledge and participation of the 138 800 employees of the railway industry, or by casting them under his spell, because that is the fairy tale they told themselves about the employees of the German railway industry. That's the beauty of it. Trump is all of the bad words, and so he will do all of the bad things through magic. The impossibility of this happening the way they say it will does not diminish their belief that this has happened or will happen, because just like the Once and Future king is spirited away to the fairyland of Avalon, "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" was and will be (whatever they them need to be. German society relieved of guilt and returning to work, YBNMW).

The one good liberal historian to write on Fascism and provide a materially grounded definition, Paxton, who wrote The Anatomy of Fascism, made the mistake of providing a coherent model on a country by country basis. Every movement from Romania, to Croatia, to Italy. Germany was included, of course, but Paxton was not trying to define fascism by working backwards from a justification for placing Wehrmacht officers on the NATO General Staff. The problem with Paxton's model, and well reviewed book, was that a coherent and grounded book, as Tolkien said, is not a satisfying fairy story. Specifically, by defining fascism as a process, like any other political process, in terms of class, economic interests, power, and so on, and not an evil spell falling over the land, Paxton stripped Hitler, or "Hitler" rather, of his uniqueness, because Horia Sima in Romania and Ferenc Szálasi in Hungary both led similar movements, and with the emigres dead and communism defeated, it was safe to admit, committed similar crimes. Hitler could be a uniquely hypnotic and charismatic speaker, or occult magician, if he was a lone figure in world history, but when there were several leaders, in rinky dink countries like Latvia, and who people had never heard of, it was harder to believe in a dark magician commanding a nation. Still, liberals could dispense with this for the time being, because after 1991, there was really no need. The story had served its purpose and outlasted the DDR and USSR.

Liberals accepted Paxton's work. It made them a bit uncomfortable, particularly where New Europe was concerned. They expressed liking Arendt's story better, and of course who doesn't prefer reading about Prince Hal and Falstaff compared to tax records of the court of Henry V? They also liked showing their command of middlebrow history and openness to historical revisionism, so the book sold well. Think of it a bit like if liberals kept a book by Reza Aslan on "The Historical Hitler" on their coffee table. "Did you know that fascism actually involved the enthusiastic participation of the middle class?" "No, I didn't. Fascinating!" The model was fine because they had no use for it. The emigres were dead, the Soviets were gone, there was only one Germany.

Well, along comes 2016. Here is the problem, in brief, if you've read this far: Donald Trump, and his voters, whatever you see on MSNBC are clearly not fascist, in a meaningful sense. They're "bad", "scary", whatever, but fascism is not a synonym for "thing I don't like". Not a surprise to this thread, which was called "Rascist" or told "Tankies" and "Fascists" are the same thing. Which is a great example of the magic, by the way. The people deploying tanks to suppress Arrow Cross veterans rising up to lynch Jews and communists (but I repeat myself) and the Arrow Cross members doing it are the same. The winds of magic blew in Hungary in 1956, so the actual reason for intervention is unknown and unknowable. Trump sucks, but Paxton's definition showed, with alarming clarity, what he was not, could not be, fascist. He didn't use state authority, and had no theory of its use, so authoritarian was out too. Trump made no effort to totalize American society, aside from spectacle and culture war, politics has never been less important to American life. Paxton compounded his error by explaining himself in interviews, as overnight he was in extremely high demand. The media wanted to hear from him 11 years after his book was published, every author's dream. Specifically, they wanted to hear that Trump was a fascist, Trump voters the Nazi Party (despite not being a party, not being organized, not being a mass movement of any kind etc.) Well, Paxton listed all of the reasons this was not true, because he thought the people asking wanted to know about the historical political movements from 1919-1946. They did not, they wanted to hear the fairy story about "fascism" again, so that the signifiant could be invoked - what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything.

Eventually, Paxton gave in, and started saying that, yes, actually, come to think of it, Trump was a fascist. This ruined the coherence and explanatory power of his own work but it made him very popular. This brings us full circle to why Trump Derangement Syndrome and the lie we encouraged Germans to tell in 1946 coexist in a sort of unreality. If Trump is Hitler, and the Trump presidency, which has already happened and will happen again, is the Third Reich, the events of the Second World War can only be understood to have happened through magic.

Orange Man Bad quondam, Orange Man Bad futurus.

same.

Nichael
Mar 30, 2011


https://x.com/NGrossman81/status/1769452259060941200?s=20

wow owned

Nichael
Mar 30, 2011


A Trump or Biden victory won't make any substantive difference, but Biden absolutely deserves to lose because he and his team are smug motherfuckers. They still think they're owed votes while actively genociding people.

i vomit kittens
Apr 25, 2019


It is not accurate to say Biden "killed someone", he was just told by the actual killer that they were going to kill someone, then handed them a gun and ammo, and told them that he supports the killer 100% in their desire to kill.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008

1glitch0 posted:

The shame of my political life is voting for Joe Biden in 2020 because I was so broken by everything and it really did feel like things were near a breaking point of absolute collapse. And now here we are and I, apparently along with many others, wont be votin for Genocide Joe. What a flop he is. I wish he was still lucid enough to know how much of a pathetic failure he is even though he kinda sorta eventually became president.

:same:

Legitimately never thought it would get this bad. I thought it would just be four years of neoliberal austerity, the idea that he would be fully supporting a genocide never even entered my mind. gently caress me. Never again.

Lib and let die
Aug 26, 2004

1glitch0 posted:

The shame of my political life is voting for Joe Biden in 2020 because I was so broken by everything and it really did feel like things were near a breaking point of absolute collapse. And now here we are and I, apparently along with many others, wont be votin for Genocide Joe. What a flop he is. I wish he was still lucid enough to know how much of a pathetic failure he is even though he kinda sorta eventually became president.



Fister Roboto posted:

:same:

Legitimately never thought it would get this bad. I thought it would just be four years of neoliberal austerity, the idea that he would be fully supporting a genocide never even entered my mind. gently caress me. Never again.

you love to see it, folks

Probably Magic
Oct 9, 2012

Looking cute, feeling cute.
The biggest problem of Trump Derangement Syndrome is it treats Trump as singularity and retroactively normalizes conservatism. If I tell a lib, "Yeah, of course Trump will suck, he's a Republican," they jump in with, "Oh no, he's worse than a Republican!" So Watergate, nothing compared to Trump. The Iraq War, child's play compared to Trump. All of Reagan, whitewashed despite Trump being such a product of Reagan's America. It's so loving ahistorical. These assholes erased the Brooks Riot of 2000 just so they could pretend October 7th was not only unprecedented but hadn't already been surpassed. An utterly infantile view of politics, that history only began in 2015.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

RadiRoot posted:

a bloodbath in the capital. oh no. stop.

gradenko_2000 posted:

D&D: we could have had a mob beating senators to death :magical:

CSPAM: WE COULD HAVE HAD A MOB BEATING SENATORS TO DEATH!!! :black101: :fap: :keke:

Probably Magic
Oct 9, 2012

Looking cute, feeling cute.
Of course these idiots fall in love with Haley, who'd be way quicker to sign a law banning trans treatments for kids than Trump would. Because they are no longer even partisans. They've reduced politics down to a single personality like life is a comic book.

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

If it's alright, we were just discussing something like this in the Ukraine thread, so I'll crosspost why Trump specifically is a problem for them:

This is a problem with Trump Derangement Syndrome. Liberals have not been able to adequately explain why Trump is a threat, why he is "fascist" or what "fascism" is. Trump has been elected, held power, lost power, and yet... nothing more awful than usual happened. "Trumpism" is clearly not dictatorial, he barely used executive authority. So, no Fuhrer principle there. Trump did not dissolve cabinet, let alone whole ministries. Did a small group of extremists seize power and remake society against the popular will, or didn't they? If Trump is a fascist and this is how fascism worked, why the discrepancy?

We have to ask, what are "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism"?

Well, the answer, on top of all the usual reasons liberals are delusional about politics and history, is that in this case they have very specific delusions. How they think the Soviet Union worked, and the Third Reich, and pretty much every state (including their own) functions has been falsified. We don't have the time or space to go into all of the details, or even all of the how's and why's, but as you know liberalism exists to disguise class power, and neoliberalism takes it further by presenting the state as powerless. That's my simplification, others can expand on this if they want. The central problem is, they cannot reconcile how they believe these things work, based around historical examples, with any contemporary examples. This is compounded by the same liberals using historical comparison as a shorthand. Saddam Hussein is just like Hitler, Trump is just like Hitler, Putin is just like Hitler and Stalin. They obviously apply this to states as well as individuals, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Iran, the Russian Federation, PRC and the even more nebulous "Islamofascism".

Yet, despite these constant comparisons, if Nazism works as they suppose, and as these states are just like the Third Reich, observation should bear that out, and it never has. I'll go further and say it never will. How they understand the Nazi Party took power, how they understand it used power, and how they understand the relationship between the use of that power and the German people, and on the German people, is central to their worldview. It's also never been replicated, anywhere, for what the greatest English historian of the Third Reich, Ian Kershaw, said was a very simple reason - it never happened.

Liberals have been taught a specific false history of the Third Reich, which does not actually explain the mechanics of the government or how it related to the public. When this is kept in the domain of the mythologized, half remembered, and not seriously examined by the average person, past, this is not a problem. "Hitler" is a signifiant, like "Napoleon" was to liberals before 1939, and "Pharaoh" was to liberals before 1815.

"Hitler" was capable of anything, and so the government of the Third Reich is not bound by what we agree are the usual limits of reality. Events could take place even though everyone opposed them, while everyone was at the same time totally unaware of them. A government could rule over 70 million people while being opposed by all of them, relying on an internal security service responsible for all of occupied Europe that peaked at 32 000 employees. The 523 000 Jews living in Germany in 1933 could disappear without anyone noticing or protesting. The Nazis won 37% of the vote in the last German election, yet they had 100% control of every aspect of public and private life, far beyond what we recognize governments are practically capable of in reality, immediately. In fact, the day to day function of this control has never been explained, nor does it have to be, because "Hitler" was capable of anything. At the same time, despite nearly 40% of the vote, no Germans supported the Nazis. Despite running in several elections, making wide use of the media, and propaganda "everywhere", no Germans were aware of their policies, programmes, or beliefs. "Hitler" is a signifiant.

You see, there is a problem with "Hitler". If "Hitler" is exceptional, which he must be, because everything above is not only an exception to the dynamics of any previous historical governments and societies, but also any examples since, how can "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" be defined almost exclusively through the rise of the Nazi Party and government of the Third Reich? The exception can't be the rule. You see the problem here. The case for "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism" is the allegation that it's possible for an unpopular government to seize power, do whatever they want, with no public awareness, at the same time opposed by the entire public, with no participation by the public. For 80 years, liberals have said "it can happen here", but never explained how, other than "it happened there", if you get my meaning. "It", I really want to hammer this home, is basically agreed to be outside any understanding of how politics and society actually function.

Well, I won't bother picking apart the alleged models of "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism", because they aren't really models. They are a myth. They do not exist to explain what actually happened in the Third Reich, nor are they expected to have any predictive ability. They exist to explain, in 1946, why business in Germany can carry on as normal. "Hitler" was a magical departure from normalcy, as I said, the explanation defies all reason, and therefore with "Hitler" gone, Germany is restored to a liberal democracy as if nothing had ever happened. Because it was just one man, you see. Or one man and his cabinet. Or one man, his cabinet, and government. Or one man... and the 32 000 Gestapo... or one man...and at most the 910 000 or so members the Waffen SS peaked at, many of whom weren't German.

But you see, this still doesn't work. You know the train tracks going to Auschwitz? Including pensioners and the employees’ families, some three million people belonged to the “Reichsbahn-family”—about five percent of the population. Mail was delivered to and sent from the concentration camps, albeit not by prisoners. 631 000 people worked for the Reichspost in 1945. Every notable industry in German employed slave labour of some kind, often concentration camp prisoners. And again, 523 000 German Jews had disappeared. This is very difficult to explain as not only the actions of one man, party, criminal organization, but knowledge confined to them.

It is a magical belief. A fairy tale. I am being a hundred percent sincere. In On Fairy Stories, JRR Tolkien tells us what we need to know about the genuine article, but for the purposes of this argument I'll use the definition he discounts:

"What is a fairy-story? In this case you will turn to the Oxford English Dictionary in vain. It contains no reference to the combination fairy-story, and is unhelpful on the subject of fairies generally. In the Supplement, fairy-tale is recorded since the year 1750, and its leading sense is said to be (a) a tale about fairies, or generally a fairy legend; with developed senses, (b) an unreal or incredible story, and (c) a falsehood."

Do you know what the most popular theory for how the Third Reich functioned was before Arendt and company developed "totalitarianism", from whence the flowers of "fascism" and "authoritarianism" bloomed? Hypnotism. Read any book published before 1952 or so, and for many years after Arendt, incidentally, and you will see speculation that Adolf Hitler possessed hypnotic abilities that are attributed to either personal charisma, training in technique, or supernatural abilities. This appears almost constantly in denazification testimony as well. "Hitler had us under a spell", "we were mesmerized", "he could hypnotize people". This was a belief in (b) an incredible story, and (c) a falsehood. A fairy tale.

People took it seriously, of course. There are still pop writers who pay the bills by exploring Hitler's alleged magnetism. YouTube channels that explore his body language, or qualities of his voice. This was a good part of History Television's programming in the 1990's. For the lower brow, these magical properties are taken quite literally and so we have a cottage industry about the Nazis and the so-called occult. For the dateless and right wing, we have all sorts of treatises on Hitler's charismatic public speaking and dynamism and so on. The belief that Hitler and the Nazis had occult powers, or techniques that may as well be magical, or that there were crowd dynamics that transformed the individuals of the German public, who remained blameless and innocent, into something other than themselves, is a falsehood.

All of this works backwards from a single point - communism must be opposed, the German public, and the employees of the railways, post office and military are needed to oppose communism, and so, an explanation was invented. It was a fairy tale. It was accepted, because it had to be. By accepting an explanation at odds with reality, contradictions were created. These contradictions were such an obvious departure from reality that they were attributed to magic. Hypnotism, the occult, "fascism" "totalitarianism" and "authoritarianism".

This explanation, given those names, proved incredibly useful for other reasons after 1945. You do not have to understand, or try to understand any state given those names, because they are agreed to be magical. Men are fed to dogs. Mortars are used as a method of execution. The GULAG system only imprisons the innocent. Famines are intentional. If a state is called "fascist" "totalitarian" or "authoritarian", you can believe anything unreal or incredible said about them. The words are incantations that can be cast to apply to any state the liberals wishes to condemn. They don't even have to demonstrably work the same way as the Third Reich, be organized around a similar ideology, in fact they could be drastically different, say a government formed by Cuban peasants rather than the German industrial middle class, and that comparison does not strain the definition because the workings of both states are magic. This is consistent with the definition Tolkien was more satisfied by:

"Faërie: the Perilous Realm itself, and the air that blows in that country.

I will not attempt to define that, nor to describe it directly. It cannot be done. Faërie cannot be caught in a net of words; for it is one of its qualities to be indescribable, though not imperceptible. It has many ingredients, but analysis will not necessarily discover the secret of the whole."

States described as "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" do not have to have any defined or shared qualities. The winds of magic blow in those lands, and so to the liberal, they are the leading European industrial power a generation after a devastating and humiliating war, with the industrialist class trying to contain worker unrest and allying with the aristocracy and middle class, even when they are Islamic scholars and students in the Hindu Kush, frustrated with the KSA and reading the works of Sayyid Qutb and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. They are the same thing because they possess "indescribable, though not imperceptible" qualities - chiefly that liberals don't like them. Secondarily, if apparent at all to liberals, that they were both instrumentalized to fight communism.

Finally, the real magic of "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" is that the spells work outside of fairyland. They work in domestic politics too. Their names can be evoked, whenever required, to be a signifiant for what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything. They do not need to bear any resemblance to any historical case, because it is not a historical model. It is a fairy story. So, it is the most important election of our lifetime, because we need to prevent fascism, led by the man who was already President. He will do things in his discontinuous second term that he did not, could not, do in his first term, because he is magic. His beliefs do not even superficially resemble the ideology of the Nazi Party, but they are the same thing, through magic. Examination and comparison holds no purchase here. Trump does not have to behave like Adolf Hitler, because "Hitler" will always be remembered as behaving like Donald Trump. And Vladimir Putin. And Osama Bin Ladin. That is the magic of it all.

Liberals need to believe that Trump could be elected tomorrow, be however unpopular, not even hold both chambers of the legislature, and still deport people to death camps. This would not reflect what anyone wanted, or supported, or participated in. It could happen by rail, either without the knowledge and participation of the 138 800 employees of the railway industry, or by casting them under his spell, because that is the fairy tale they told themselves about the employees of the German railway industry. That's the beauty of it. Trump is all of the bad words, and so he will do all of the bad things through magic. The impossibility of this happening the way they say it will does not diminish their belief that this has happened or will happen, because just like the Once and Future king is spirited away to the fairyland of Avalon, "fascist" "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" was and will be (whatever they them need to be. German society relieved of guilt and returning to work, YBNMW).

The one good liberal historian to write on Fascism and provide a materially grounded definition, Paxton, who wrote The Anatomy of Fascism, made the mistake of providing a coherent model on a country by country basis. Every movement from Romania, to Croatia, to Italy. Germany was included, of course, but Paxton was not trying to define fascism by working backwards from a justification for placing Wehrmacht officers on the NATO General Staff. The problem with Paxton's model, and well reviewed book, was that a coherent and grounded book, as Tolkien said, is not a satisfying fairy story. Specifically, by defining fascism as a process, like any other political process, in terms of class, economic interests, power, and so on, and not an evil spell falling over the land, Paxton stripped Hitler, or "Hitler" rather, of his uniqueness, because Horia Sima in Romania and Ferenc Szálasi in Hungary both led similar movements, and with the emigres dead and communism defeated, it was safe to admit, committed similar crimes. Hitler could be a uniquely hypnotic and charismatic speaker, or occult magician, if he was a lone figure in world history, but when there were several leaders, in rinky dink countries like Latvia, and who people had never heard of, it was harder to believe in a dark magician commanding a nation. Still, liberals could dispense with this for the time being, because after 1991, there was really no need. The story had served its purpose and outlasted the DDR and USSR.

Liberals accepted Paxton's work. It made them a bit uncomfortable, particularly where New Europe was concerned. They expressed liking Arendt's story better, and of course who doesn't prefer reading about Prince Hal and Falstaff compared to tax records of the court of Henry V? They also liked showing their command of middlebrow history and openness to historical revisionism, so the book sold well. Think of it a bit like if liberals kept a book by Reza Aslan on "The Historical Hitler" on their coffee table. "Did you know that fascism actually involved the enthusiastic participation of the middle class?" "No, I didn't. Fascinating!" The model was fine because they had no use for it. The emigres were dead, the Soviets were gone, there was only one Germany.

Well, along comes 2016. Here is the problem, in brief, if you've read this far: Donald Trump, and his voters, whatever you see on MSNBC are clearly not fascist, in a meaningful sense. They're "bad", "scary", whatever, but fascism is not a synonym for "thing I don't like". Not a surprise to this thread, which was called "Rascist" or told "Tankies" and "Fascists" are the same thing. Which is a great example of the magic, by the way. The people deploying tanks to suppress Arrow Cross veterans rising up to lynch Jews and communists (but I repeat myself) and the Arrow Cross members doing it are the same. The winds of magic blew in Hungary in 1956, so the actual reason for intervention is unknown and unknowable. Trump sucks, but Paxton's definition showed, with alarming clarity, what he was not, could not be, fascist. He didn't use state authority, and had no theory of its use, so authoritarian was out too. Trump made no effort to totalize American society, aside from spectacle and culture war, politics has never been less important to American life. Paxton compounded his error by explaining himself in interviews, as overnight he was in extremely high demand. The media wanted to hear from him 11 years after his book was published, every author's dream. Specifically, they wanted to hear that Trump was a fascist, Trump voters the Nazi Party (despite not being a party, not being organized, not being a mass movement of any kind etc.) Well, Paxton listed all of the reasons this was not true, because he thought the people asking wanted to know about the historical political movements from 1919-1946. They did not, they wanted to hear the fairy story about "fascism" again, so that the signifiant could be invoked - what liberals claim to oppose when they don't stand for anything.

Eventually, Paxton gave in, and started saying that, yes, actually, come to think of it, Trump was a fascist. This ruined the coherence and explanatory power of his own work but it made him very popular. This brings us full circle to why Trump Derangement Syndrome and the lie we encouraged Germans to tell in 1946 coexist in a sort of unreality. If Trump is Hitler, and the Trump presidency, which has already happened and will happen again, is the Third Reich, the events of the Second World War can only be understood to have happened through magic.

Orange Man Bad quondam, Orange Man Bad futurus.

This is really interesting, and for me it explains why liberals tend to overvalue writers and artists, and give them powerful shamanistic qualities they don't actually have.

I read a lot of vertigo comics growing up, and a constant reoccurring theme was that stories are the most important thing on earth. Why? Because they are magic. The writers of stories are sorcerers that define our reality and rewrite it to to make it a better place. A goodly careful wizard can write a beautiful story that makes the world a better place. A badly clumsy wizard can write dark and evil stories that make the world a bad place with bad people. Warren Ellis wrote essays about how a bunch of the brit wave comic book writers like Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Neil Gaiman took full advantage of this to create a cult of personality around themselves because portraying yourself as a mysterious mystic was a great way to build a fanbase and market yourself. No big surprise that like all cult leaders the brit wave comic book artists turned out to be creeps in one form or the other, including Ellis.

The truth is though, this is all this talk of magic and sorcery and fairy tales boils down to propaganda. Marketing really. I took a marketing 101 class in college out of curiosity, and ironically one of the first things you are taught is a phrase, usually something that goes like this:

"The Best Marketing in the World Can't Fix a Bad Product"

Sure, you can convincingly lie and bullshit to sell a lot of terrible poo poo in the short term, but after awhile, you start getting a reputation. People know they have to be careful around you, so they start watching you. Carefully. And when they really start looking at you, they start cataloging all of your tricks, one by one, and they begin to realize they can't believe you. And once they realize they can't believe you, you can't sell them poo poo. You have profited in the short term, but in the long term you've hosed yourself.

This is where the Democrats find themselves today. This is where America finds itself today. A bad product.

And all the Magic and Fairy tales in the world can't save a bad product.

Not that it will stop them from trying though. This is the danger of thinking you're a wizard and magic thinking will save you.

World War Mammories
Aug 25, 2006


DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Orange Man Bad quondam, Orange Man Bad futurus.

I read this whole post, and I enjoyed it, like a loving sicko

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Officer Sandvich
Feb 14, 2010

Willa Rogers posted:

he was saying that china would eat our shorts in auto mfg. if he isn't reelected this year.

edit:

nazi tweet so the usual suspects can kill the messenger:

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1769346786408497358

If you're listening President Xi, and you and I are friends, but he understands the way I deal,

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