|
Anne Frank Funk posted:“What possible connection is there between Arrakis and Salusa Secundus?” He's obviously playing dumb here tbf
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 15:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
Yeah I got dunced by the way English language books present dialogue.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 16:14
|
|
|
Because of the Guild's monopoly on interstellar travel, the Sardaukar don't even have to be the best, just better than any House's army. They can mass all their forces to invade one House's home planet, then do it again, without anyone being able to intervene. Something that I appreciate about the first book is that there's generally an explanation for why the status quo exists and hasn't already been toppled by One Weird Trick. Someone could try to recruit the Fremen, but that would attract attention. The Guild could destroy the imperial system, but they'd wreck the economy that sustains them. Et cetera.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:07
|
|
|
we've said it several different ways in this thread, but dunc is at its core a farce. a non stop series of self described geniuses and master strategists continually getting it wrong and loving up in very real and far reaching ways, real pig headed boners of gently caress ups.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:11
|
|
|
thats just how real international relations are tho, so that's the piercing realism
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:19
|
|
|
Bubblyblubber posted:we've said it several different ways in this thread, but dunc is at its core a farce. a non stop series of self described geniuses and master strategists continually getting it wrong and loving up in very real and far reaching ways, real pig headed boners of gently caress ups.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:23
|
|
|
FMguru posted:My favorite part of the book is the appendix where the Bene Gesserit conduct a review of the Arrakis incident and absolutely roast RM Mohiam for being so goddamn stupid, especially where she tests the potential kwisatz haderach, finds that he breaks the human male record for enduring the pain box, and then just shrugs and tosses him to the wolves. The report tries to save face by concluding that there must be some deeper conspiracy at work, because it's impossible to imagine the highest-ranking Reverend Mother - the emperor's own Truthsayer! - could make such a spectacularly obvious blunder. i like the part in the movie where paul tells her to shut up
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:26
|
|
|
FMguru posted:My favorite part of the book is the appendix where the Bene Gesserit conduct a review of the Arrakis incident and absolutely roast RM Mohiam for being so goddamn stupid, especially where she tests the potential kwisatz haderach, finds that he breaks the human male record for enduring the pain box, and then just shrugs and tosses him to the wolves. The report tries to save face by concluding that there must be some deeper conspiracy at work, because it's impossible to imagine the highest-ranking Reverend Mother - the emperor's own Truthsayer! - could make such a spectacularly obvious blunder. My favorite part is in Messiah, where Scytale casually drops the fact that the Tleilaxu went and made their own KH a while back. In a lab, not with 10,000 years of painstaking breeding, and the whole idea doesn't work because they go crazy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:39
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:i like the part in the movie where paul tells her to shut up and afterward the film's sole exclamation of Abomination! smh
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:41
|
|
|
Probably the part(s) of Dune that can't be translated to film, and shouldn't be, is some of the weird evocative details in the margins. Like the first book's appendix mentions that there are spaceships that connect together and destroy enemy fortifications by just falling on them, but you never see one in action. (That one could actually work in a movie. Would be neat to see a skyscraper-sized Giger-themed Harkonnen Dr. Wiley castle just fall out of the sky, earthquake knocks everyone to the ground, then doors open and troops start pouring out.)
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:47
|
|
|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:47
|
|
|
There's also an assassination/infiltration aspect to the Sardaukar that isn't explored in 1984/2021 Dunc. They're supposed to be able to blend into any environment, and were known for smuggling weapons all over their body - shigawire garrotes in their hair, stabbing weapons in fake toes, plus their main armament of maula pistols, needle pistols, flip-caps, hunter-seekers, etc. I honestly cant remember if its spelled out or implied, but I wanna say the dude who drove the hunter-seeker against Paul pre-invasion was a Sardaukar in Harkonnen uniform? Halloween Jack posted:Because of the Guild's monopoly on interstellar travel, the Sardaukar don't even have to be the best, just better than any House's army. They can mass all their forces to invade one House's home planet, then do it again, without anyone being able to intervene. Also 'Beast' Rabban and Leto I are the only people who think there's a lot of Fremen. The Fremen had been paying off the Navigator's Guild to hide their numbers for centuries. In retrospect it seems like everyone in the book was blinded by their preconceptions
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 17:50
|
|
|
I like that Rabban wasn't totally clueless, but wasn't smart enough to grasp his predicament and do anything about it. In retrospect, the most accurate part of Dune is semuta. Herbert predicted that drugs and techno music would go together like peanut butter and jelly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:04
|
|
|
my favourite part of dunc is when denis villeneuve made the two movies
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:16
|
|
|
Was there a scene in the new film with semuta music? I seem to recall maybe one of the Harkonnen lackeys in Feyd's introduction playing some instrument. I think there was also a brief shot elsewhere in the movie of someone loading a maula pistol, too. Neat little nods to small details in the book. Someone in a different thread pointed out that the treatment of Jessica - as weak, and then as almost a villain after she drinks the water of life - was kind of sloppy, and I sort of agree. I think it was a clever way to alter the book material (FWIR) and invoke the idea of plans within plans, but I think it could have been done better. Actually, now that I think about it, it's pretty clearly a setup for part 3/Messiah, Alia is literally speaking through her. I think this is also why the ending felt a little flat and anticlimactic - it's because we know we're getting part 3. Paul choosing Irulan (and not explaining why) and Chani literally storming off mad because of it was a weird choice, but it makes sense if we know there's more story coming. I wonder who will get the Big Bad villain treatment in part 3. The treatment and acting of Feyd and the Baron will be hard to top. While I'm here, I have a question: So the Bene Gesserit are 'sowing prophecy' on multiple planets, presumably in the service of their breeding program (or is this more just a general means of control?). Does this mean they've made the connection, that the Fremen's Lisan al-Gaib will certainly also be their Kwisatz Haderach? It's obviously explained (directly to Paul) that they think he might be the KH, does Jessica start seeing the Fremen worship of him and put two and two together herself?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:18
|
|
|
ted chiang is as good a writer as villaneuve is a moviemaker. i can't colorably say that about frank herbert
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:19
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Probably the part(s) of Dune that can't be translated to film, and shouldn't be, is some of the weird evocative details in the margins. Like the first book's appendix mentions that there are spaceships that connect together and destroy enemy fortifications by just falling on them, but you never see one in action. That was like in the Chronicles of Riddick where the necromongers (best name) just drop giant spikes with troops inside to pile out of. Seemed extremely effective!
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:While I'm here, I have a question: So the Bene Gesserit are 'sowing prophecy' on multiple planets, presumably in the service of their breeding program (or is this more just a general means of control?). Does this mean they've made the connection, that the Fremen's Lisan al-Gaib will certainly also be their Kwisatz Haderach? It's obviously explained (directly to Paul) that they think he might be the KH, does Jessica start seeing the Fremen worship of him and put two and two together herself? No. The Missionaria Protectiva is a toolkit to make it easier for local BG to do whatever it is they're there to do by providing them with a local myth-cycle to take advantage of. It doesn't have anything specifically to do with the KH program in general, and when Jessica sees which particular myth-cycle they've inculcated on Arrakis she's taken aback because it means the planet must be a really awful place to survive.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:24
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E6AcXUKSVA
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:26
|
|
|
priznat posted:That was like in the Chronicles of Riddick where the necromongers (best name) just drop giant spikes with troops inside to pile out of. Seemed extremely effective! Chronicles of Riddick is an absolute banger of space opera science fiction The set/costume design is 
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:26
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Was there a scene in the new film with semuta music? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCylH-WzqrU
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:30
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:i like the part in the movie where paul tells her to shut up username post... combo?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:33
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:While I'm here, I have a question: So the Bene Gesserit are 'sowing prophecy' on multiple planets, presumably in the service of their breeding program (or is this more just a general means of control?). Does this mean they've made the connection, that the Fremen's Lisan al-Gaib will certainly also be their Kwisatz Haderach? It's obviously explained (directly to Paul) that they think he might be the KH, does Jessica start seeing the Fremen worship of him and put two and two together herself? If you are a BG and you find yourself alone, cut off, and threatened on an isolated world, you can do some mummery to win the locals over with your oddly-specific knowledge of their religious practices and prophecies - which is exactly what Jessica did after she and Paul fled into the desert and stumbled across Stilgar and his band. Afterwards, Jessica even gives silent thanks to whatever anonymous sister manipulated the Fremen religion long ago, thinking that she did her work well. Even earlier in the book, Jessica was working that angle with the Shadout Mapes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:34
|
|
|
Yeah, it's basically just a way for a BG to manipulate religion for their own protection, because they can just slot in and fill the prophecies. And even then it's partially luck, like how Jessica manages to stumble upon the term "Maker" when she was originally planning to say "Maker of Death"
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:37
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Paul choosing Irulan (and not explaining why) and Chani literally storming off mad because of it was a weird choice, but it makes sense if we know there's more story coming. Not trying to get a dig in but I thought that was pretty clear? Paul is a noble, Irulan is a noble, and by getting the Princess' hand he solidifies his claim to the Imperial throne. By staying with Chani he gains no political advantage. Chani, to whom he pledged what she reasonably took as a lifelong commitment*, she's jilted and pissed and doesn't want to be a concubine. This is a departure from the books, but a cool one IMO as it actually creates more conflict and sacrifice on his path. *Real "from a certain point of view hours." "When I said I'd love you till my dying breath, I meant it. I do love you. I just married someone else. Maybe learn to feel some compersion about it."
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:43
|
|
|
Vampire Panties posted:Chronicles of Riddick is an absolute banger of space opera science fiction Agreed it’s extremely underrated. It’s pretty wild going from a bog standard future setting in Pitch Black to that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:47
|
|
|
Ah OK, thanks for the explanation re: BG prophecies. Another thing that kinda rubbed me the wrong way about the new film is that the word 'jihad' was completely off the table (was it? maybe I missed its use somewhere) but nobody shrugged about showing the good guys using nuclear bombs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:50
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Ah OK, thanks for the explanation re: BG prophecies. Calling them the good guys might be a little off the mark, they're morally gray instruments of the universe at best. Also, at least the nukes were only used to break up the shield wall (the mountain range surrounding the area) to allow the worm incursion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:52
|
|
|
Considering he had to wage interstellar civil war and kill billions to bring the other Houses in line, I'm not 100% on what he gained by marrying Irulan and thereby legitimizing his ascendance. It seems no one but the Fremen and Atreides recognized it as legitimate anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:56
|
|
|
Fausty posted:Calling them the good guys might be a little off the mark, they're morally gray instruments of the universe at best. Also, at least the nukes were only used to break up the shield wall (the mountain range surrounding the area) to allow the worm incursion. Enh, in the book they're clear that using nukes offensively is forbidden by the Great Convention and the dodge is that 'we're not using them against enemy troops or fortifications, we're just removing a mountain range,' but in the film they are definitely killing a bunch of Sardaukar with a nuclear blast. Halloween Jack posted:Considering he had to wage interstellar civil war and kill billions to bring the other Houses in line, I'm not 100% on what he gained by marrying Irulan and thereby legitimizing his ascendance. It seems no one but the Fremen and Atreides recognized it as legitimate anyway. Another thing about the movie I didn't like. He didn't have to "bring the other houses in line." They're in line, he threatens/controls the spice. The throne is effectively a formality, a legal legitimization of the de facto state of affairs which everyone recognizes. The houses did not refuse to recognize Paul as emperor until the Fremen show up as enforcers. The Freman jihad is about recognizing Paul's *godhead*, not his ascension to the throne, that is specifically why it is a *holy* war. There are a number of points where I think Villaneuve really misses the point and this is a big one.. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Mar 18, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 18:58
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:I like that Rabban wasn't totally clueless, but wasn't smart enough to grasp his predicament and do anything about it. I really appreciate what Dave Bautista brought to the role, he really didn't afford himself the slightest dignity. It was also ultra lol when he landed to try and face the Fremen and got a quick taste of how little they're loving around.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:01
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:Considering he had to wage interstellar civil war and kill billions to bring the other Houses in line, I'm not 100% on what he gained by marrying Irulan and thereby legitimizing his ascendance. It seems no one but the Fremen and Atreides recognized it as legitimate anyway. Even if he ultimately ascends through the rule of iron, it's still handy to have a pretext. If absolutely nothing else, it takes her off the table to marry another scion of a different house of the Landstrad, which would arguably make resistance even more fierce with a legitimate Corinno ruler to rally around. Doing the math on the path maybe he worked it out that without at least the pretense of a claim the
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:02
|
|
|
In some version of Dune 1984, doesnt Paul explicitly say to Irulan "I will marry you, but it will be loveless and we will have no children, you can have whatever pleasures you want but you will never leave my side" or am I conflating his speech to the Emperor?
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:04
|
|
|
Phanatic posted:Another thing about the movie I didn't like. He didn't have to "bring the other houses in line." They're in line, he threatens/controls the spice. The throne is effectively a formality, a legal legitimization of the de facto state of affairs which everyone recognizes. The houses did not refuse to recognize Paul as emperor until the Fremen show up as enforcers. The Freman jihad is about recognizing Paul's *godhead*, not his ascension to the throne, that is specifically why it is a *holy* war. There are a number of points where I think Villaneuve really misses the point and this is a big one.. Idk about the first point since it's also very much talked about how they are going around the Convention in a legal loophole, however flimsy it may be. Have to 100% agree with this second point though. Love the movies, but they lose some of the important focus of the book.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:06
|
|
|
Paul marries Irulan to conciliate the Bene Gesserit (by keeping one of them in the ruling household) and the Guild (by making a token gesture of continuity). As Messiah shows, Irulan is also an incredibly obvious locus for conspiracy/revolution to rally around and her actions give him a window into his enemies’ plans. The noble houses are irrelevant, they’ve just been made redundant by a literal barbarian horde.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:08
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Ah OK, thanks for the explanation re: BG prophecies. They never said "jihad", but Paul was referred to as "mahdi" several times. That's good enough for me, even if it is a slightly obscure bit of history. It does feature a British Imperial army getting completely dunced on though! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:14
|
|
|
Phanatic posted:Enh, in the book they're clear that using nukes offensively is forbidden by the Great Convention and the dodge is that 'we're not using them against enemy troops or fortifications, we're just removing a mountain range,' but in the film they are definitely killing a bunch of Sardaukar with a nuclear blast. COLLATERAL DAMAGE
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:15
|
|
|
the enthused-about-movie-watching muslim countries are mostly sunni (indonesia, pakistan, uae, saudis) so they don't care as much about the mahdi. whereas jihad is a serious political issue in all those countries i mentioned
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:29
|
|
|
That's a very fair point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
also the mahdi's not mentioned at all in the quran, so it's way more of a Thing That Muslim Peeps Believe In For Some Reason, like the rapture is a Thing That Christian Peeps Believe In For Some Reason
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2024 19:34
|
|