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https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/my-hero-academia-chapter-417/chapter/42055?action=read https://mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp/viewer/1020367 No Nose bursting into Big Nose bursting into Big Beak might be the funniest thing that ever happened in this series.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:28
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I am all for diegetic surreal changes to the visual narrative especially when a given story usually play it straight, but story has gone through a lot of low points just to get here
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Mar 18, 2024 08:27
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Ya make two unbeatable super bosses. So broken, they are, that one of em is defeated moreso by their own idiocy than the actions of any one hero. The other...uhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah I dunno, mind palace this poo poo. I'm not as down on this chapter as I sound, but taking it all in big picture I just think the invincible final boss poo poo needs to go. I've rarely been entertained by it. Maybe Cars from Jojo?
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Mar 18, 2024 15:00
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Meruem and Neferpitou were good IMHO, but the Chimera Ant arc operated on a completely different wavelength than this. I think Shigaraki mostly worked as a villain, except right at the end. Also, while I like muscle girls, I really have no idea what Stars and Stripe added to the narrative.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:47
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At least AFO went out as he came in - as an arrogant baby.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:57
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Meruem and Neferpitou were good IMHO, but the Chimera Ant arc operated on a completely different wavelength than this. I'm almost certain Stars and Stripe was part of a larger vigilante Deku arc that ended up cut out except for the barest of bones. A lot of this ending feels like it is going slow, yet speedrunning every idea that Horikoshi isn't going to get to flesh out fully like he wanted.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:17
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I don't mind the invincible boss in this situation because it plays directly into the basic idea behind the series, which is that Deku is a hero because he saves people instead of because he punches the best, and Deku having to face the all-powerful enemy who can't be defeated by punching and defeating him through empathy and self-sacrifice is pretty much 100% what the series was building up to and is what is supposed to define the dude who was chosen for his heroic traits before he got powers.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:40
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It's weird though since that contrasts to AFO who instead of people resonating with his sad backstory of being born to a woman society had ignored and let die so he had to raise himself and his brother from infancy they blasted him with super attacks until he devolved into a fetus and disappeared.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:45
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But he was an evil baby
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Mar 18, 2024 18:46
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Touche
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Mar 18, 2024 18:46
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ImpAtom posted:I don't mind the invincible boss in this situation because it plays directly into the basic idea behind the series, which is that Deku is a hero because he saves people instead of because he punches the best, and Deku having to face the all-powerful enemy who can't be defeated by punching and defeating him through empathy and self-sacrifice is pretty much 100% what the series was building up to and is what is supposed to define the dude who was chosen for his heroic traits before he got powers. We had two separate invincible bosses, one of whom is a willful mass murderer who is in the process of being saved because he had a tragic life and was abandoned by society and the other of whom was a willful mass murderer who was punched until he disappeared from existence despite having a tragic life and being abandoned by society. Like everything about this final battle would work a lot better if AfO had just never been a part of it.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:48
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Yeah I think the biggest mistep the comic made was having AFO come out of retirement.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:58
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Eggplant Squire posted:It's weird though since that contrasts to AFO who instead of people resonating with his sad backstory of being born to a woman society had ignored and let die so he had to raise himself and his brother from infancy they blasted him with super attacks until he devolved into a fetus and disappeared. It boils down to this: Deku genuinely thinks his opponent is lying about being irredeemable and is suffering and miserable inside and looking for someone to help him. He has enough evidence that this is a plausible, if deeply risky, theory to hold because we know his opponent has friends and people he cares about genuinely and also has spent most of his life being manipulated and horrible controlled by someone else. He claims he doesn't want help and is just evil and gently caress YOU Deku but there's enough evidence he is wrong. Even then, the average person probably would have just gone "he needs to die because he's irredeemable" and Deku is exceptional because he doesn't because he views him as a sad abused child who was manipulated by someone else into the monster he became. AFO had a lovely backstory but wholeheartedly and full-throatedly leapt into "I am going to be horrible to everyone, never show any remorse, never show the slightest indication I want to change or regret my actions, and even when it all caught up to me I just redoubled my efforts on being horrible in extremely specific and malicious ways." Nobody, including the audience, has any reason to view AFO differently, because AFO is a grown-rear end adult who may have had a rough childhood but fully and unashamedly made his bed at every possible opportunity, and even in his final moments his biggest regret was simply he couldn't kill and hurt more people.
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Mar 18, 2024 19:17
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AFO did nothing wrong.
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Mar 18, 2024 19:57
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Shigaraki is also a grown rear end adult who had a rough childhood and has unashamedly made his bed at every possible opportunity, and in his final moments he's trying to blow up Japan.
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Mar 18, 2024 20:30
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Kanos posted:Shigaraki is also a grown rear end adult who had a rough childhood and has unashamedly made his bed at every possible opportunity, and in his final moments he's trying to blow up Japan. Shigaraki is 20 (or 21? The time period is nebulous enough) and has spent the entirety of his teenage years being groomed by a horrible person. It isn't the same situation. Like to point out, fuckin' Dabi is older than Shigaraki. Like Dabi's life loving sucks poo poo and he was horribly ruined by it and he's treated as sad and sympathetic despite being a fire murder man because at the end of the day he came from horrible circumstances and was manipulated by an evil man. Shigaraki is younger than he is, came from arguably worse circumstances, and was manipulated by an evil man for longer and with less support. AFO was born to lovely circumstances but even when he got out of them he just kept doubling down and abusing others for over a hundred years, when even his own brother didn't end up that way. Even then AFO had every chance in the world to back down and stop with no cost to himself and chose not to, over and over, while making himself such a threat that All Might, the nicest guy in the world, felt he had no choice but to go for a kill shot to stop him and got his guts ruined in the process. Like even at his utter, absolute, most loathesome, Shigaraki wants to destroy a cruel and unjust society and hurt the people who hurt him. AFO is not a victim of anyone but society and he's had over a hundred years which he devoted almost exclusively to making society worse for his own gain. The story is pretty clear that Shigaraki is a victim lashing out, AFO isn't. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 20:40
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AfO grew up as a completely abandoned child with absolutely no one to rely on from the literal moment of his birth and no one to save him when he was on the cusp of adulthood. If the message is supposed to be that everyone is a victim of their circumstances and that having horrible circumstances serves to mitigate the agency of horrible choices, that should be applied to AfO too. The reason the message is muddied is because on one side you've got "let's go on a mind palace journey to the center of Shigaraki's trauma to save him and stop him from blowing up Japan because despite having killed thousands of people and destroyed an entire country he's a victim of his circumstances and everyone deserves someone to save them" and on the other side you've got "AfO was an evil monster from birth and it's totally awesome that Bakugo flipped him the double bird while he blinked out of existence because he was always an irredeemable villain" in the same arc.
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Mar 18, 2024 20:52
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One was an evil baby and one was not. That’s just how it be
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Mar 18, 2024 20:55
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Kanos posted:AfO grew up as a completely abandoned child with absolutely no one to rely on from the literal moment of his birth and no one to save him when he was on the cusp of adulthood. No he wasn't. AFO had his own brother, who he abused and mistreated from the start. AFO had a bad start in life but that doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his choices and the actions he took You're going "We can't ever judge anyone, EVER, because what if they had a bad past" which is not what the story ever attempts to say. Someone can have a bad past and still be responsible for the choices they made. Shigaraki gets empathy because he lived his entire life under abuse and is lashing out at a society that failed him. AFO was an orphan who, when given great power, used that power exclusively for his own gain and to hurt others not out of a rebellion against society's failures but because he wanted to be richer and more powerful and he was fine ruining and destroying people to get that power. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 20:56
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ImpAtom posted:No he wasn't. AFO had his own brother, who he abused and mistreated from the start. AfO is the only reason his brother even survived from the moment of their birth, and he protected and provided for his brother throughout their entire childhood despite it being an obviously much easier thing to do to simply leave him to die. His brother/original OfA clearly loved and cared for AfO given his mixed feelings about turning against him.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:00
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Anyway AFO got his tragic evil baby backstory 30 chapters ago while Shigs got his tragic family murderin backstory 200 chapters ago, and even ignoring how silly it is to act as if the circumstances of these villain origin stories were the same I think it is unsurprising and even ok for the backstory that got a whole villain focused arc to introduce it is perhaps treated more sympatheticly.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:01
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Kanos posted:AfO protected and provided for his brother throughout their entire childhood despite it being an obviously much easier thing to do to simply leave him to die, and his brother/original OfA clearly loved and cared for AfO given his mixed feelings about turning against him. AfO did it because he viewed his brother as property, not because he loved him. This is explicitly stated onscreen. His brother loved AFO because of course he did, he was his only family and he misjudged the abusive behavior as affection until he was older. Edit: Like AFO literally named him "Yoichi" because it was shorthand for "First Possession." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 21:02
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Eggplant Squire posted:Yeah I think the biggest mistep the comic made was having AFO come out of retirement. On one hand I agree, but on the other, 
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Mar 18, 2024 21:06
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FireWorksWell posted:On one hand I agree, but on the other, Bakugo looks so enthused to beat up a baby.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:14
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lmao evil baby got rekt
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Mar 18, 2024 21:15
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Hey what if no one hugged Superhitler hard enough to make him love again is sure a take. I think, in the context of this work, the only folks that are irredeemable are the ones that lack any kind of community/friendship and who unabashedly go "uh, no,actually, I really like doing hosed up poo poo to people!" when given a chance to repent. It's why Muscular is an evil douche and why Lady Nagant, though a murderer, is viewed with a little more kindness. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 21:18
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ImpAtom posted:No he wasn't. AFO had his own brother, who he abused and mistreated from the start. AFO had a bad start in life but that doesn't mean he isn't responsible for his choices and the actions he took You're going "We can't ever judge anyone, EVER, because what if they had a bad past" which is not what the story ever attempts to say. Someone can have a bad past and still be responsible for the choices they made. Shigaraki gets empathy because he lived his entire life under abuse and is lashing out at a society that failed him. AFO was an orphan who, when given great power, used that power exclusively for his own gain and to hurt others not out of a rebellion against society's failures but because he wanted to be richer and more powerful and he was fine ruining and destroying people to get that power. I have to hit on the bolded because it's the fundamental nettle of our disagreement, I think. It feels like you're applying, I don't know, a statute of limitations here? Like AfO has done a lot of horribly evil stuff but because no one saved him early on his life and he kept doing bad stuff it's too late to save him and his bed is made while Shigaraki has piled up a Mount Fuji-sized mound of bodies but since he's still young he's still in the "can save" strike zone. I see no fundamental difference between Shigaraki "lashing out at the society that failed him" by killing everyone he possibly can and AfO "lashing out at the society that failed him" by spending his entire life nursing an obsession for power and control over everything and everyone. I think "born in a gutter with nothing and had to eat my mom's corpse as a baby to not die" is a pretty good motivator for having established an obsessive desire for wealth and power, just like being beaten and abused as a child is a pretty good motivator for wanting to burn everything down. Kanos fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 21:18
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I think you also have to get into the weeds of how All Might being a hammer to all crime kinda made it harder for people to see criminals in any other light than the "Bad guy" trying to tear down society. Plus the whole tragedy of AM's mentor dying and all. Though, honestly, after murking like 7 OFA users and poo poo it would be hard for anyone to see the guy with anything but a mass murderer lens. Unless you're Deku, apparently. Also f me because redeeming the irredeemable is basically what happened in Naruto.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:29
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Kanos posted:I have to hit on the bolded because it's the fundamental nettle of our disagreement, I think. There is a significant difference between adults and children. Shigaraki is 20 years old which is very much in the 'legally an adult but not necessarily mentally one' territory even in the best of times, let alone spending most of his life being groomed by an actual for-real adult. He is still responsible for his actions but also still in almost every level that matters a child. AFO is over a hundred years old, a grown adult, and not being manipulated by anyone. There's not really anything hypocritical about this. Past a certain point people are considered grown adults who should be responsible for their own actions (barring obvious mental impairments) and I feel comfortable saying a 100 year old criminal supergenius is a lot more responsible for their actions than a 20 year old traumatized grooming victim even in similar circumstances. and MHA is more friendly than most about that with characters like Gentle Criminal and Twice being presented as tragic victims too because for all the power they have they don't actually have any control over society and the way it abuses them, while OFA actually has a lot of power over society in terms of both wealth and power. To put it another way, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to a 20 year old who got deep into the right wing nuthole even if he was a shithead then I would be for a 70 year old politician who is the same. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 21:29
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Its a bit silly AFO got the evil baby backstory as a way to kinda sidestep any of the existing themes about how abused and disadvantaged people are pushed by societal structures into vollainy and these people deserve sympathy, and in a better story you'd kinda expect the themes to interact with or comment on the evil baby of it all. However, that is not what happened so the answer to why does AFO not get this empathy is "Unlike every other villain the comic considers AFO an irredeemable evil at birth". And any goofy argument or several paragraph response about how there is no difference between AFO or Shigs actually is going to run up to the wall of the simple fact that only one of these characters was a dumb evil baby and that's why the other guy is treated differently. E: And to be clear I think AFO being an evil baby is stupid and bad but if you're going to do some dumb analysis of this comic you kinda need to accept the comic's take on that.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:31
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He was born an arrogant baby and he died an arrogant baby. It’s the perfect character arc.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:35
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Honestly, to avoid getting further into the weeds about AfO and Shigaraki's Trauma Olympics, my original point is that AfO should have never been in this arc to begin with because he clashes with the entire theme it is trying to push. The issue isn't Shigaraki being saved being wrong or anything, it's that everything in this arc is about saving villains no matter the cost because that's what heroes do(Dabi, Toga, Shiagaraki) and then you focus half the final battle on The Guy Who Is Totally Irredeemable and it's loving weird.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:38
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Kanos posted:Honestly, to avoid getting further into the weeds about AfO and Shigaraki's Trauma Olympics, my original point is that AfO should have never been in this arc to begin with because he clashes with the entire theme it is trying to push. The issue isn't Shigaraki being saved being wrong or anything, it's that everything in this arc is about saving villains no matter the cost because that's what heroes do(Dabi, Toga, Shiagaraki) and then you focus half the final battle on The Guy Who Is Totally Irredeemable and it's loving weird. I think it's fine but I am personally of the belief that it is okay to acknowledge some people are horrible and cruel people without saying we need to give up on everyone who is troubled. There's a certain level of empathy and kindness society can expect and give and "spending your entire life making the world worse for people in order to enrich yourself without an iota of empathy" is something I feel is perfectly justifiable as calling irredeemable even if that person had a lovely horrible abusive father. There's like five big name people in the world right now who easily fit that niche. I think it's fine to emphasize that in a battle like this because like... it's true? Some people don't want nor care about redemption or help and have the wealth and resources that they could be happy and comfortable without hurting people and still choose to do so. You're not obligated to give them the same care or empathy you do for someone who genuinely and wholeheartedly needs help and I think it's actively harmful for the latter to paint them with the same brush as the former. Honestly this may just be "we're just going to fundamentally disagree" and that's cool. You don't have to feel the same way I do about a shonen fightmans.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:46
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I think the message the series is going for would hit a lot harder if just killing Shigaraki was still an option. Again, super invincible mega boss shtick is hard to pull off well but regardless of Deku's motivation to get through to Shiggy the story has kinda said that he's not really killable in his current state. So yeah Deku, do your thing. It's the only option on the table, which makes it a little less dramatic a choice.
Shinjobi fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 21:50
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On that note this little bastard better survive past the ending of the series.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:51
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If they do a "I'm redeemed, now time to die instantly" ending I'll be annoyed. I hate that poo poo so much.
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Mar 18, 2024 21:52
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's fine but I am personally of the belief that it is okay to acknowledge some people are horrible and cruel people without saying we need to give up on everyone who is troubled. There's a certain level of empathy and kindness society can expect and give and "spending your entire life making the world worse for people in order to enrich yourself without an iota of empathy" is something I feel is perfectly justifiable as calling irredeemable even if that person had a lovely horrible abusive father. There's like five big name people in the world right now who easily fit that niche. So, Shigaraki?  They actually have a character in this arc who actively didn't want to be redeemed and continually lashed out at the people trying to help him to the point of blowing himself up into a flaming skeleton in the process of trying to kill those people in Dabi, and the manga still came down on the "we still want to save him" side of things.
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Mar 18, 2024 22:20
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It was genuinely kind of hosed up and upsetting having Nana see her adult son physically abusing her grandson. That's some really heavy stuff, and I'm not sure if the text even accurately acknowledges how upsetting that would be for someone in Nana's position. Edit: and to have it happen because of her own actions/choices, and with a son that (IIRC) she last knew as a young child before she died
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Mar 18, 2024 22:59
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Kanos posted:So, Shigaraki? Both Dabi and Shigaraki are barely adults who pretty explicitly have been manipulated since they were young children and were abused by their parents. So no, I don't agree that either of them fills that niche. At the end of the day, yes, I think they deserve more empathy. I don't even think it's super controversial. Like 20 years old is "can't even drink everywhere" age. If AFO was 20 I'd feel differently than if he was 100+ years old.
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Mar 18, 2024 23:01
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I still maintain that if Deku's pro hero career is like a year long that's stupid as hell, I don't even care if he hugs Shiggy to freedom or whatever.
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Mar 18, 2024 23:04
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