|
wemgo posted:D3s problem, for me, was that they stopped adding any substantive content after RoS and the Necro class. Mechanically, they over-relied on their set items, which combined with haedric’s gift, greatly shortened the character power ramp. I find d3 to be fun, but i can be done playing it within a single day because if their overemphasis on set items. There's no difference between sets that turbo charge your damage vs having to assemble 12 items that add 20% damage each. Just rescale your damage with a log transform and the end result is identical. Being "done" in a day for D3 is more you deciding you're done though. There's a ton of additional power you can earn with better drops for quite a while. Other than 1 or 2 over powered season gimmicks, getting to GR150 is a pretty difficult feat. I would also argue that introducing new sets and items that featured unused skills is pretty similar to adding new skills. Stuff about mini games and crafting are all on point. Overall, I feel D3 was pretty narrow in what it aimed to do but it did it very well. I can definitely see how that didn't match what you wanted out of the game though.
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 23:13 |
|
|
they did genuinely get d3 to a point where it just felt good and a bunch of the big problems were fixed and then they just stopped adding content to it. finishing seasons in a day is hyperbole, but there just isn't much content there to engage with for more than a weekend or two. imo it's a shame they just gave up on developing further content for it and I wonder sometimes what it would be like if it had gotten a full decade of continued development.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:15
|
|
|
I've played necromancer is a few different games now and it's always amusing to me to see my character rolling through a town with their posse of disgusting dead things.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:23
|
|
|
Lord Packinham posted:Last Epoch just isn’t fun to play, good systems though. feel the opposite. it has fun skills and visuals, the campaign is very enjoyable, but the end game systems are really miserable, and the crafting is good in concept but is just a system for bricking good items and hoping you hit but without the ability to start from a raw base or avoid/undo mistakes like in poe. Doomykins posted:The great thing about the GAAS model is that the content release discussion period never ends. arpgs are grandfathered in, they invented the model because an arpg needs long term support to actually develop into something worth playing Lord Packinham posted:I don’t understand ARPG issues super well, what are people’s problems with D3? I know it launched terribly but since RoS I thought it was super good so I don’t get why people don’t like greater rifts or other things they brought. there are no builds and the loot is the most boring loot in any game ever invented Doomykins posted:To D3s credit if you like this style of the arpg it became one of the better ones after RoS hit, Vanilla plagued with uh, most of D4s itemization issues, lol. ironically that is actually more interesting than modernised d3 itemisation. also lets be honest: vanilla d2 had the same issue Doomykins posted:The genre wisdom at the moment seems to be that if you can't do both, and it seems almost impossible to do so, then lean into one and do it well, and it's been very popular to lean into the D3 style of things, thus it feeling like the father of the current state of the genre. on what planet is this true lol like the more notable modern arpgs are stuff like last epoch and torchlight infinite which are pulling from poe significantly more than d3. d3 is in its own little corner where people wjho like playing d3 only play d3 and complain about every other arpg
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:32
|
|
|
I like not behind able to start from a empty base in LE becuase it means floor drops can still be good I understand there are pluses and minuses
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:33
|
|
|
Dr Kool-AIDS posted:I really don't get why people who hate Blizzard bought the game in the first place, let alone still post about it most of a year later. If you don't like a game, play something else--there are tons of other options available! I get this sentiment, especially leading up to the release when everyone was so certain the game would be terrible. It drove me nuts because I think a lot of that was driven by stuff specific to the state of the genre plus baggage around blizzard being themselves. But it was a lot of mostly baseless speculation. I genuinely think people wanted the game to fail which I don't get but that's not for me to figure out. When the game came out and was extremely polished in presentation and feel, but brutally deficient in systems and quality of life, I am guessing a everyone gave themselves an old fashioned pat on the back, either because it's deficiencies confirmed their speculations, or because the Polish meant it wasn't stupid to hope the game could turn out okay. Now it is clear that the direction for the game is kinda absent, and I think people who post here by and large just want to see it improve. I know I do.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:33
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I like not behind able to start from a empty base in LE becuase it means floor drops can still be good thats fine in concept but the execution doesnt mean floor drops are good, it means they are the only source. and again that could be fine, it could even be really good, but everything you do to those floor drops is permanent and destructive so you just collect them and roll them over and over and over and it turns an interesting crafting system into something frustrating. the only time it doesnt do this is if you get a near perfect item you just need to add one affix to or upgrade but then youre just doing d4 level crafting so the systems feel wasted.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:38
|
|
|
I like D3 and I like most other ARPGs.  Maybe I'm wrong but the two schools that usually don't mix are casual monster hallway explode-a-thons and brutally difficult ballcrushers with limited respecs and stuff. I think a lot of ARPGs made in the last ten years follow the D3 formula(or the popularized by D3 formula, I dunno where PoE figures on the timeline or any other game) of beat the campaign, get to level cap, run a rifts/maps mode of semi-infinite content. The latter ballcrushers seem to be extinct. For reference I've gone through D2, D3, D4, Grim Dawn, PoE, Torchlight 1/2, Van Helsing 1, the goofy rear end Warhammer 40k ARPG, Titan Quest. I've also watched a fair bit of talk about other ARPGs, I don't think I hate any in the genre except the part where I paid twice what D4 was worth for it even without tipping Blizz for the early release. unattended spaghetti posted:I get this sentiment, especially leading up to the release when everyone was so certain the game would be terrible. It drove me nuts because I think a lot of that was driven by stuff specific to the state of the genre plus baggage around blizzard being themselves. But it was a lot of mostly baseless speculation. I genuinely think people wanted the game to fail which I don't get but that's not for me to figure out. D4 came out amidst Blizzard at their most shameful. Post Shadowlands in WoW, OW2 abandoning the reason they "made" OW2, the ridiculous sexual harassment news breaking. Memories of D3 release are timeless too and we were all surprised they at least did decent by the writing standards. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Mar 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:38
|
|
|
Dr Kool-AIDS posted:I really don't get why people who hate Blizzard bought the game in the first place, let alone still post about it most of a year later. If you don't like a game, play something else--there are tons of other options available! People are freaks. Blizzard games for some reason attract a lot of them
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 16:44
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:I like D3 and I like most other ARPGs. what arpg is a 'brutally difficult ballcrusher' because genuinely none of them come to mind as such outside of like launch diablo 2/3 (and I mean specifically like 1.0 D2, not the later patches) or maybe d1? everything these days is a monster hallway explode-a-thon, casual or otherwise
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:05
|
|
|
Poe just put in new maps that literally delete your character from the servers if you die once . The are very popular
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:07
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:I like D3 and I like most other ARPGs. what games would be in the latter group, that doesnt even describe d2 lol. i dont think that stuff describes a d3 formula at all, poe certainly had that before d3 did, and stuff like grim dawns challenge dungeons were around the same time iirc, and its just a formalising of what you would do in d2 to farm semi-infinite content. youre just describing the genre itself and attributing it to d3. teh difference between d3 and other arpgs is down to stuff like itemisation and builds.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:09
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:what arpg is a 'brutally difficult ballcrusher' because genuinely none of them come to mind as such outside of like launch diablo 2/3 (and I mean specifically like 1.0 D2, not the later patches) or maybe d1? everything these days is a monster hallway explode-a-thon, casual or otherwise lol launch d3 was the most brutal arpg ever created. and frankly, it was better that way
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:13
|
|
|
Launch D3 owned.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:20
|
|
|
I would agree but i think the cause of that brutality were the monumentally stupid design decisions. It did Not feel good to find a Barb-only 2h that rolled a bunch of caster mods and then have no way to improve it so that maybe you could sell it at the RMAH. The d3 devs expected the RMAH to band-aid away the core problems with the game at launch and it backfired. In hindsite, it was pretty lol to watch my monk explode into a pool of liquified human right outside of caldeum when a wasp projectile touched me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:28
|
|
|
The challenging dungeon crawl arpg niche sort of got blown up by the soulslike genre. They're all about scraping by in defiance of an unforgiving world.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:30
|
|
|
i liked launch d2 before they eventually patched the game so you could get mana potions from vendors so you were actually expected to mostly use autoattacks instead of infinitely spamming spells or magic attacks everywhere, which meant you had to approach fights a lot more carefully
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:33
|
|
|
Mustached Demon posted:The challenging dungeon crawl arpg niche sort of got blown up by the soulslike genre. They're all about scraping by in defiance of an unforgiving world. In any case I absolutely love being able to run around exploding hallways of demons then occasionally having to use a few more skills to deal with some elites and/or a boss. The NMDs have definitely improved a ton since full release (preseason; I never played before then). Between Walking Arsenal + Ancestral Charge Barb and Ice Shard + Teleport & Frost Nova Sorceress I had a blast getting two characters to 100 (then promptly never playing them again). AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:35
|
|
|
Stux posted:what games would be in the latter group Yeah probably, my bad. I certainly don't know who slammed the Maps design down on the table first since I came to PoE pretty late and still don't get it at the top end. Herstory Begins Now posted:what arpg is a 'brutally difficult ballcrusher' because genuinely none of them come to mind as such outside of like launch diablo 2/3 (and I mean specifically like 1.0 D2, not the later patches) or maybe d1? everything these days is a monster hallway explode-a-thon, casual or otherwise True, looks like a lot of ARPG discourse wants to pull in ideas from other genres to the Diablo-style ARPG. I did say I might be(probably am) wrong. I've played the harder games of this kind of RPG where the most joy comes from ironing out your character build myself but those are usually rogue-likes that stay to their own lane of design. I assume when people argue that builds need to be a commitment and infinite free respecs are a crutch that they're imagining these ballbuster ARPGs that I'd like to play myself but they aren't actually Diablo-style clicker ARPGs? The big difference is that a rogue-like will make you commit to your build but you can also run a character in an hour from start to functional and dying to something mid or even late game whereas D4 and a lot of modern arpgs want you to play a character for dozens of hours, really put a ring on 'em. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:39
|
|
|
Ancestral arpgs* were universally (I think) hardcore which also limited the time invested * rogue and it’s derivatives
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:41
|
|
|
Doomykins posted:Yeah probably, my bad. I certainly don't know who slammed the Maps design down on the table first since I came to PoE pretty late and still don't get it at the top end. My biggest issue with the latter style is that no character remains fun for the lengths of time developers seem to think players want. If someone figures out how to make a game where the evolution of the build in and of itself is cool I'll be impressed. But as of now in most games, there's the assembling a build bit, which takes more or less time depending on the game, and then the static portion where you're optimizing. I like both parts, but the former way more since its all about adaptation. Main reason I generally ignore build guides. It takes all the fun out of the journey and turns the game into an exercise in tedious checklists and incremental increases. I like the latter part too, but get bored pretty fast once the game becomes spreadsheet city and low percentile drop rates. I feel like I just talked myself into swearing off all modern ARPGs lol. Action roguelike games really do tick all the boxes for me I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:51
|
|
|
When's the next chat about the loot system?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 17:56
|
|
|
unattended spaghetti posted:My biggest issue with the latter style is that no character remains fun for the lengths of time developers seem to think players want. If someone figures out how to make a game where the evolution of the build in and of itself is cool I'll be impressed. But as of now in most games, there's the assembling a build bit, which takes more or less time depending on the game, and then the static portion where you're optimizing. I like both parts, but the former way more since its all about adaptation. Main reason I generally ignore build guides. It takes all the fun out of the journey and turns the game into an exercise in tedious checklists and incremental increases. I like the latter part too, but get bored pretty fast once the game becomes spreadsheet city and low percentile drop rates. Have you tried PoE’s solo self-found mode? Forgive me if you have, but it sounds exactly like what you want: a lot of adapting your build to what you have vs leveling up and buying the gear you need.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:00
|
|
|
Dr Kool-AIDS posted:I really don't get why people who hate Blizzard bought the game in the first place, let alone still post about it most of a year later. If you don't like a game, play something else--there are tons of other options available! Just because I'm not in a train wreck doesn't mean I can't watch one
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:03
|
|
|
wemgo posted:Have you tried PoE’s solo self-found mode? Forgive me if you have, but it sounds exactly like what you want: a lot of adapting your build to what you have vs leveling up and buying the gear you need. I've tried PoE a few times but it never clicks. Part of it is a lack of accessibility options to help with the absolute load of text, part of it is my limited experience with the skills themselves is poor, part of it is the shitloads of systems and sub systems. It just doesn't really land for me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:04
|
|
|
Poe ruthless mode sounds perfect for you
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:05
|
|
|
External Organs posted:When's the next chat about the loot system? Tomorrow I think?
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:06
|
|
|
Yep, campfire is tomorrow at 2pm eastern.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:09
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:This is what I was thinking happened but I havent played any of them to be sure. Put Elden Ring on your steam wish list. They definitely wanted to widen the audience so it can be one of the easier soulslikes. One of the mechanics can act as a difficulty slider. It's very long though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:11
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:i liked launch d2 before they eventually patched the game so you could get mana potions from vendors so you were actually expected to mostly use autoattacks instead of infinitely spamming spells or magic attacks everywhere, which meant you had to approach fights a lot more carefully They just haven't found a way to implement the latter without pissing off the former type of player. They would probably need two completely different types of game to achieve that though - one where you smash everything as you currently do and an 'expert' mode where there are less demons but they have more health and damage and your mana regens 50% as fast or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:19
|
|
|
If they don't fix the loot system before the next expansion I don't even know what to say
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:20
|
|
|
PoE has a hard mode like that, but I can't tell you how good it is because I was never interested
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:21
|
|
|
unattended spaghetti posted:I've tried PoE a few times but it never clicks. Part of it is a lack of accessibility options to help with the absolute load of text, part of it is my limited experience with the skills themselves is poor, part of it is the shitloads of systems and sub systems. It just doesn't really land for me. I understand, this was also my experience for years. If you ever decide to try again, pop into the poe thread and we can answer your questions. There’s also an in-game global chat channel full of helpful SA forum users.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:21
|
|
|
Mustached Demon posted:Put Elden Ring on your steam wish list. They definitely wanted to widen the audience so it can be one of the easier soulslikes. One of the mechanics can act as a difficulty slider. I've never played a Souls game because they looked super grim and depressing, and probably beyond my skill level.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:41
|
|
|
Parrying should be dependent on your parry % stat, not timing a boss swing
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 18:48
|
|
|
Dick Trauma posted:I've never played a Souls game because they looked super grim and depressing, and probably beyond my skill level. They are super grim and depressing. Anyway, Elden Ring has the most built in difficulty adjusting in the series. If you are a he-man vidya games champion wearing an Anime Expert t-shirt then you can fight everything mano-a-mano and take every hit on the chin. If you want some help they added some limited spirit summons(infinite use, not in every place, pretty much available for every boss) and dedicated exploration yields guys who can halve the difficulty of even the worst bosses for you. As always you can also summon other players to help. The nice thing of course is if you compulsively avoid people in vidya then boom, use the spirits. For what it's worth every other game also has the player summoning to a degree even if offline, since certain fights get NPCs that act as player summons down to the same method of looking for their sign outside the door after toggling the "multiplayer, please" item.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 19:02
|
|
|
Elden Ring did such a good jog walking the line between being challenging and inviting and creatively letting you adjust the difficulty through builds and finding things and all that. But forcing coop players into the invasion pool serves no loving purpose. Especially when you consider how often you'd be in the open world anyway. People might say that's a balance consideration, but it clashes with all the broken builds and spirit summons. Just let people play with their friends jeez. I know there's a coop mod for pc but that doesn't resolve the issue for everyone else. Anyway this is the diablo thread my bad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 19:09
|
|
|
unattended spaghetti posted:I feel like I just talked myself into swearing off all modern ARPGs lol. Action roguelike games really do tick all the boxes for me I guess. Mustached Demon posted:Put Elden Ring on your steam wish list. They definitely wanted to widen the audience so it can be one of the easier soulslikes. One of the mechanics can act as a difficulty slider.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 19:35
|
|
|
wemgo posted:I would agree but i think the cause of that brutality were the monumentally stupid design decisions. the only part of the rmah that was an issue was the rm part. a trade focused arpg w a functioning ah was a good idea. Doomykins posted:I assume when people argue that builds need to be a commitment and infinite free respecs are a crutch that they're imagining these ballbuster ARPGs that I'd like to play myself but they aren't actually Diablo-style clicker ARPGs? its more that some level of constraint is more fun than the alternative. as an example im playing grim dawn atm and havnt picked my second class up yet, because im not 100% sure which one i want to go for as multiple options could work for my character and once i pick it im locked in on this character. this sort of commitment is more fun to me because it makes me think carefully about my build and how i am playing each particular character and what i want it to do, and once i do lock it in im then incentivised to think my way out of any part of that choice that i dont like. so the mechanics in stuff like gd, poe, d2 etc that force you to be considerate about how you are building so you dont have to go grind respec mats or reroll are part of the fun. d3 has infinite free respecs because you arent making many choices to begin with and the game doesnt care about you getting attached to each character or anything like that, because its just a treadmill.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 19:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 23:13 |
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I cant say I have tried any action roguelikes, what are some games that are considered in that bucket? Hades
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2024 19:37
|
|
