[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

stephenthinkpad: Jan 2, 2020

VoicesCanBe posted:

I'm not gonna dismiss the possibility of nuclear war but I still don't think it happens. If France goes through with their "tripwire" force, Russia probably trips the wire, there's a brief outrage and demand for NATO escalation that goes nowhere, and then France quietly tried to pretend it never happened.

All Russia has to do is use Wagner to bomb French troops to give Germany and US the smallest excuse not to react.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:46

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# ? May 23, 2024 16:31

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Starsfan posted:

I think anyone in NATO can "invoke" article 5 over basically anything but ultimately it's up to the US and if they say "nope" then what is France going to do lol

France has its own nuclear deterrent which is much more of a concern than a French Divison getting wiped and NATO getting involved

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:47

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

VoicesCanBe posted:

The worst kept secret is that Article 5 is vague as hell and countries can freely ignore it without consequence.

I think you take a small prestige hit when you turn down an ally's request for help. You can get it back pretty easily by holding a feast or going on a hunt or whatever.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:48

Cookie Cutter: Nov 29, 2020; Is there something else that's bothering you Mr. President?

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Article 5 NATO Medal for Operation Active Endeavour

On 12 September 2001, NATO implemented Article 5 of the Washington Treaty following the 11 September attacks against the United States. Following US requests, NATO subsequently agreed to implement 8 specific measures to expand the options available in the campaign against terrorism. These measures included the deployment of elements of NATO�s Standing Naval Forces to the Eastern Mediterranean in order to provide a NATO presence and demonstrate resolve. The NATO Operation ACTIVE ENDEAVOUR formally began on 26 October 2001 when the activation order was issued. However, patrolling in the Eastern Mediterranean had already started on 6 October when the Standing Naval Force Mediterranean was dispatched to conduct maritime presence operations in support of the international campaign against terrorism.

Awarded for 30 days continuous or 60 cumulative days service as part of an element of the Standing Naval Force (SNF) operating in the international waters of the Mediterranean Sea and in the air space above it commencing the 26 October 2001 and ending 9 November 2016..

Aircrew will accumulate one day�s service for the first sortie flown of any day in the Area of Operation; additional sorties flown on the same day receive no further credit. This requirement exists for support as well as combat aircraft, and support aircraft including tanker, airlift, and surveillance platforms.

NATO strictly applies their medals policy and will not consider requests for initial issue of NATO medals that are submitted more than two years after repatriation from mission area.

NATO Regulations state that any person who dies or is evacuated because of injuries of medical reasons directly attributable to service is deemed to have satisfied the time criteria.

I have the ISAF non-article 5 version of this, I dunno what it's made from but it is so lightweight and cheap feeling, like a chocolate coin.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:48

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Well like, they gave medals to anyone who accumulated 30 days flying time, including training, in the year after 9/11.

The official description, eligibility, criteria, and history of the Article 5 NATO Medal for Operation EAGLE ASSIST.

Operation EAGLE ASSIST began on 12 October 2001 following the North Atlantic Council�s decision on 4 October to take measures to implement Article 5 of the Washington Treaty. This was done following the terrorist attacks against the United States on 11 September 2001, and the mission�s aim was to assist US Forces to control North American airspace. The mission was deemed complete on 16 May 2002.

Awarded to NAEW&C crews that have served thirty days continuous or accumulated service in the air space of United States of America and the air space of North America as tasked by NORAD between 12 October 2001 and 16 May 2002:

Aircrew will accumulate one day�s service for the first sortie flown of any day in the Area of Operation; additional sorties flown on the same day receive no further credit. This requirement exists for support as well as combat aircraft, and support aircraft including tanker, airlift, and surveillance platforms.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:49

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Cookie Cutter posted:

I have the ISAF non-article 5 version of this, I dunno what it's made from but it is so lightweight and cheap feeling, like a chocolate coin.

SWASM, right?

They�re silver.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:50

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

turning into kind of a microcosm of the end of WW2 where the west is racing in to prevent the Russians from grabbing too much Nazi land

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:51

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

I don�t know wtf Macron is doing if Germany isn�t behind him though.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:54

Cookie Cutter: Nov 29, 2020; Is there something else that's bothering you Mr. President?

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

SWASM, right?

Nah it looks identical to that first NATO one, but with silver stripes on the ribbon, and no Article 5 bar. I got that + the Op Herrick participation trophy for going to Kandahar for two months. The ISAF one honestly feels like plastic compared to the real silver Herrick one, it's dull and doesn't polish up at all, totally mass produced nothing award

Cookie Cutter has issued a correction as of 16:57 on Mar 20, 2024

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:55

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008; Can't post for 3 hours!

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

I don�t know wtf Macron is doing if Germany isn�t behind him though.

escalate escalate escalate!

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:55

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Comrade Koba posted:

can you even invoke article 5 if you send your troops into an active conflict between two non-nato states?

michael scott declaring bankruptcy energy

# ? Mar 20, 2024 16:57

Officer Sandvich: Feb 14, 2010

Nonsense posted:

I think the Baltic states are a true red line

https://cepa.org/article/baltics-to-fight-russia-from-the-first-mile/

Baltics to Fight Russia From the First Mile

The Baltic defensive line, a new approach to fighting a Russian invasion showcases a shift in the operational and strategic thinking of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

quote:

The 600-plus fortifications and other measures announced in January will spread across the Baltic states and will border both Russia and Belarus. The aim, a fundamental change in approach, will seek to channel any Russian invasion toward massive mobility hurdles in the form of bunkers likely stocked with reserves of mines, barbed wire, and materials for the construction of major anti-tank mobility traps such as dragon�s teeth.

[....]

NATO exercises have often gamed out how to defend or liberate the occupied Baltics, and policymakers have had deal with the threat of Russian gray zone or hybrid warfare attacks. Since last year�s Vilnius summit, the alliance has moved from a forward presence of a few battalions to forward defense, which aims to hold territory.

The old Baltic plan of total defense strategies, including mobilizing resistance among the civilian population, is no longer considered adequate. As Estonian Prime Minister Kaja Kallas complained in summer 2022, the old plan allowed Russia to capture the Baltics and flatten their towns before (hopefully) NATO forces liberated whatever remained.

The defensive fortification line proves that all that once was old is new again; it puts the hinge of defensive success on preventing a conventional Russian offensive from breaking through, rather than bracing for some form of asymmetric conflict.

From a tactical perspective, this investment reflects the changes in the last 10 years of the Ukraine war. Russia�s seizure of Crimea spawned fears of similar operations conducted in NATO countries that might not provoke an Article Five response in time to defend the sovereignty of the invaded ally. While those sorts of operations still feature in the Russian playbook � and are being used against Estonia � the last two years of massive military operations show the need for major conventional defensive systems.

[....]

There�s certainly an unsustainability to these Russian tactics at some point, but just as Ukraine can�t simply wait for Russia to be bled dry, the Baltic countries cannot put their independence, or the safety of their civilians and cities at risk, hoping to drag the war on through their heartland while waiting for NATO forces to intervene. Everyone is now clear about the terrible human costs of Russian occupation.

If Russia lunges at Estonia or tries to drive tanks from Belarus through Vilnius to connect with Kaliningrad, a NATO response would mean a conventional war that devastates the battlefront.

Ukraine offers daunting examples, from $1 trillion estimated cost of rebuilding to the generational project of making a country safe after it is littered with landmines and unexploded ordnance. Bracing for the inevitable use of bombers and long-range strikes on civilian targets like seen against many Ukrainian cities is a given. Even defeating a Russian invasion entails drastic human and economic costs to Baltic civilians. NATO munitions would have rain down on NATO members� roads and fields and cities.

The Baltic Defense Line is a means of forcing as much of that destruction back onto Russian soil, and it restrains crossfire to a belt along the border already sacrificed for defensive depth.

In this way, dedicated, permanent defensive structures are a deterrent investment that broadcasts collective Baltic commitment to give no ground. The Russian determination to dig in and hold occupied territory stymied the 2023 counteroffensive, and that defensive position has encouraged some Western intellectuals � the so-called realists � to mistakenly argue for peace talks based on the illusion of limited Russian goals.

The Baltic states, better versed in Russian history and Kremlin ruthlessness, cannot risk putting themselves in that situation. Russia must be fought from the first mile.

the baltics are ready

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:04

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

Officer Sandvich posted:

https://cepa.org/article/baltics-to-fight-russia-from-the-first-mile/

Baltics to Fight Russia From the First Mile

The Baltic defensive line, a new approach to fighting a Russian invasion showcases a shift in the operational and strategic thinking of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

the baltics are ready

Holland 2 lmfao

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:07

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Orange Devil posted:

Forcefully projecting is all they can do.

forcefully projecting instead of projecting force. how ironic.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:11

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

Officer Sandvich posted:

https://cepa.org/article/baltics-to-fight-russia-from-the-first-mile/

Baltics to Fight Russia From the First Mile

The Baltic defensive line, a new approach to fighting a Russian invasion showcases a shift in the operational and strategic thinking of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

the baltics are ready

Three countries who decided to revolve their entire existence around exclusively hating Russia, to the point of self-destruction.

"We will literally see our countries destroyed to annoy Russia somewhat"

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:23

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:24

Tom Guycot: Oct 15, 2008; Chief of Governors

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:27

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

Lmao

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:28

CongoJack: Nov 5, 2009; Ask Why, Asshole

I have a feeling it was not a discussion but more of a rant/monologue

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:30

1stGear: Jan 16, 2010; Here's to the new us.

I don't know when the correct time to begin discussing politics, especially controversial politics, with a romantic interest is, but its definitely not the third date.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:32

Minenfeld!: Aug 21, 2012

You can talk politics on the third date. There's never a good time to tell people about nafo.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:37

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

There is absolutely no way to talk about "being in" NAFO without sounding like a lunatic, much less for 2 straight hours.

I know this story is 100% made up but i hope it's not, because its a hilarious self-own

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:46

Hatebag: Jun 17, 2008

on the internet i pretend to be a little dog that loves it when ukrainians die pointlessly

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:47

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770485790847414389

Lmao maybe this fella's date is hearing from her uncle "yeah Ukraine's cooked"

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:48

Organ Fiend: May 21, 2007; custom title

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

I'm not the only one who's mind is going to that MLP figurine in the glass jar, am I?

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:49

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

that woman dodged an artillery shell

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:52

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ConLaw60654/status/1770247245855637544?t=AbJa4DvY-m_rY5YQwIQLTA&s=19

Even in their own stories these fellas arent getting laid.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:55

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

1stGear posted:

I don't know when the correct time to begin discussing politics, especially controversial politics, with a romantic interest is, but its definitely not the third date.

On the other hand� caveat emptor�

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:55

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

On the other hand� caveat emptor�

he's speaking from experience

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:57

1stGear: Jan 16, 2010; Here's to the new us.

Zodium posted:

he's speaking from experience

bold of you to assume i've ever gotten to a third date

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:58

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

i meant ff lol

# ? Mar 20, 2024 17:59

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

do not post the nafo cum jar

# ? Mar 20, 2024 18:05

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

reminder one of the biggest reasons for calling this war genocidal is that Russians evacuate civilians from active warzones

something that happens in every war ever unless you're doing stupid poo poo like telling all the political grandmas to throw Molotovs from their windows

for reference Israel is purposely NOT removing civilians from the war zone and is actively dropping bombs on them where they live. And this is apparently NOT a genocide. So the liberals can say they're consistent.

# ? Mar 20, 2024 18:05