|
Tankbuster posted:I don't think that North Korea has minefields with either the PRC or Russia. Im not trying to support any argument, just dipping in to clarify this listed point that came up. According to Human Rights Watch, there are unconfirmed reports of such. HRW posted:Since late 2021, there have been unconfirmed reports about mines buried along the Tumen and Yalu Rivers to prevent border crossing to China. Media with contacts in North Korea reported that authorities started laying landmines around the northern border since August 2023, and six people died when land mines went off trying to cross the border near Musan county, North Hamgyong province, in September and October 2023.48 Distinguishing fact from fiction about matters between DPRK and PRC seems like a nearly impossible task, so for now they're just reports
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 03:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 02:23 |
|
|
I haven't seen any discussion about Chuck Schumer's speech a few days ago. I found the video worth watching. Transcript: https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-senator-chuck-schumers-speech-israeli-elections-are-the-only-way/ Video: https://www.youtube.com/live/9VgXMcm_9l0?si=HfbjXI6eQANOlrE7 I thought it was interesting to see the most senior Jewish elected official in the US, who (in my opinion anyway) is incredibly biased towards Israel, identify right wing Israelis and Benjamin Netanyahu as major obstacles towards peace. He listed four obstacles to peace. The first and third shouldn't be a surprise given the speaker, but the other two were interesting to hear: 1. Hamas, and the Palestinians who support and tolerate them. (He called it "their evil ways"  )2. Radical right-wing Israelis in government and society. 3. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. 4. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He went into detail on all four. This has mostly shown up in the news as Schumer calling for Netanyahu's ouster and for new elections, and there's been some push back from Netanyahu about it, and it highlights the Democrat/Republican split on Israel: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/20/us/politics/netanyahu-schumer-israel.html It's also kind of darkly amusing to see Netanyahu complain about interfering in Israeli politics while inserting himself into American politics so deeply.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 04:01
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:He listed four obstacles to peace. The first and third shouldn't be a surprise given the speaker, but the other two were interesting to hear: This sounds like just whataboutism since both sides are clearly equally obstacles to peace, and we'll land back at Israel has no choice but to defense themselves. I realize it's jaded to say so, but I do think this is just performative to try to appease the part of the Democratic base that is livid about our unconditional support for genocide. Ousting Netanyahu wouldn't do much, because the entire Israeli government would do the same things he's doing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 04:57
|
|
|
SMEGMA_MAIL posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68605401.amp been saying for quite a while that if the US gave a single solitary gently caress about the humanitarian situation beyond making noises purely for appearances there'd be a campaign to supply civilians that would be reminiscent in scope as that of the first weeks of the russian invasion of ukraine. it's incredibly obvious when the US actually wants something to happen because it moves heaven and earth to make it happen
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 05:10
|
|
|
Nail Rat posted:This sounds like just whataboutism since both sides are clearly equally obstacles to peace, and we'll land back at Israel has no choice but to defense themselves. I realize it's jaded to say so, but I do think this is just performative to try to appease the part of the Democratic base that is livid about our unconditional support for genocide. The “smart move” for both the dems who cannot not support Israel and smarter zionists is allow this to go on just long enough to make Gaza uninhabitable, kill off as many Palestinians and get as much of a foothold in Gaza, divide up the West Bank as much as possible before the election gets too close, and then let Bibi and the far right take all the blame while installing a more coy “centrist” Israeli leader who can effectively continue the same policies without all the noise. For this to work it all requires the Hamas has been destroyed or placated enough to not be attacking Israeli military outposts, which will in turn lead to demands for retaliation that will quickly put a lie to the whole narrative that the genocide campaign is a product of the far-right or Bibi and his cabinet alone, and that Bibi will go quietly enough which I think are very unlikely. Nail Rat posted:This sounds like just whataboutism since both sides are clearly equally obstacles to peace, and we'll land back at Israel has no choice but to defense themselves. I realize it's jaded to say so, but I do think this is just performative to try to appease the part of the Democratic base that is livid about our unconditional support for genocide. I think the dem establishment types and liberal Zionists sincerely believe that Netanyahu is the root the problem and that it’s all a PR issue that can be fixed by rolling the genocide a little bit slower and quieter when the adults get in the room. Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 05:23
|
|
|
Are there estimates on the cost of rebuilding the Gaza Strip? Cause Israel obviously should be forced to foot the bill for the destruction they caused but a country of ten million people completely rebuilding the infrastructure of two million people is going to be pretty onerous. Like the destruction of the state talked about earlier in the thread will likely be accomplished by the devastating economic impacts of the entire productive output of your country being rerouted for years to undo the effects of your carpetbombing. I’ve heard reports that 70% of buildings in Gaza city were damaged or destroyed and it seems like every hospital has been hit at this point. Rebuilding is going to be a staggeringly expensive and lengthy process, and slow walking this reconstruction would end up supporting the project of ethnic cleansing. Like it must be tens of billions of dollars, maybe a hundred billion. And Israel has a history of blocking importation of construction material. So what’s the plan? Is the US going to pay for it? Ask the UN to? Force Israel to? Will Israel be impelled to throw open the blockade to allow for a jillion tons of concrete and steel to enter the strip? If they refuse what will happen, exactly?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 06:03
|
|
|
celadon posted:Are there estimates on the cost of rebuilding the Gaza Strip? Cause Israel obviously should be forced to foot the bill for the destruction they caused but a country of ten million people completely rebuilding the infrastructure of two million people is going to be pretty onerous. Like the destruction of the state talked about earlier in the thread will likely be accomplished by the devastating economic impacts of the entire productive output of your country being rerouted for years to undo the effects of your carpetbombing. https://www.un.org/unispal/document...lease-excerpts/ I think we all know now, but been the plan for a long time. Gazans were able to make do with less a lot longer than Israel anticipated and kept food and water production far above what was predicted. Israel is not going to waste the opportunity to finally make the strip uninhabitable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 06:22
|
|
|
celadon posted:I’ve heard reports that 70% of buildings in Gaza city were damaged or destroyed and it seems like every hospital has been hit at this point. Rebuilding is going to be a staggeringly expensive and lengthy process, and slow walking this reconstruction would end up supporting the project of ethnic cleansing. Any rebuilding that israel does is going to be greatly or exclusively preferenced towards reincorporation for non-arab populations. They will not be rebuilding gaza for gazans. Transitional uninhabitability is the point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 06:55
|
|
|
There have been negotiations under which Arab states have offered to fund the rebuilding of Gaza, in exchange for Israel allowing a two-state solution to happen, eg here. https://jewishinsider.com/2024/03/task-force-arab-states-rebuilding-gaza-jinsa-vandenberg-coalition/ I think this misunderstands Israel's motivations though - they have absolutely zero interest in doing anything that could be regarded as a 'reward' for Palestinians. I suspect they will leave Gaza as a shattered tent city to serve as a reminder.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 09:18
|
|
|
Esran posted:Thank you, Inferior Third Season, for much needed moderation of these dangerous ideas. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 11:42
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:I haven't seen any discussion about Chuck Schumer's speech a few days ago. I found the video worth watching. Isn't Abbas/Fatah little more than a puppet for Israel at this point?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 12:08
|
|
|
Laughing Zealot posted:Isn't Abbas/Fatah little more than a puppet for Israel at this point? This is something like Schumer's critique: Abbas has no legitimacy among the vast majority of Palestinian people, and for peace to happen, the guy in his chair needs to have that legitimacy. quote:Over the years, President Abbas has evaded the democratic process, declining to hold elections for over a decade and failing to empower future leadership. Despite his long tenure leading the Palestinian Authority, he has achieved few of his self-proclaimed goals. The Palestinian Authority remains corrupt and continues to incite instability through the martyr payment system. Palestinians are no more prosperous, no safer, and no freer than they were when Abbas first took power. As a result, President Abbas has lost the trust of the Palestinian people Schumer separately criticizes him for his long history of antisemitism and Holocaust denial (this is true - Abbas has a long history of espousing anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, particularly about the Holocaust, and later on apologizing, which is politically counterproductive). Schumer also criticizes him for not condemning the murder of civilians on October 7 (it's impossible for me to believe anyone would have cared either way if he had done this). I think these points are basically irrelevant compared to the earlier ones, but they reinforce Schumer's rhetorical position as a "friend of Israel" who is not "soft on antisemitism" etc. quote:Furthermore, he is a terrible role model and spiritual leader. In the past, he has participated in outright Holocaust denial, attempting to justify Nazis’ actions. This embrace of antisemitism extended to his refusal, for weeks, to condemn the loss of Israeli civilian life on October 7. And then he ends by repeating the significant point: Abbas can't represent Palestine in a peace process because Palestinians do not believe he represents their interests. quote:Should Abbas remain, the Palestinian people can have no assurance that a Palestinian state would be able to ensure their safety or prosperity. Nor can they have any belief that the government would be free of corruption. It is really incredible how unpopular Abbas has managed to make himself. Among his constituents he's the corrupt comprador, but it makes him no more popular in Israel where he's the Holocaust denier. It's obvious he's not going to be the leader who accomplishes independent statehood for Palestine, so he needs to step aside for the leader who will. But it goes without saying that it makes no difference unless the State of Israel is positioned to enter reasonable negotiations instead of what it's currently doing, the opposite of that: committing a genocide. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 14:02
|
|
|
quote:Over the years, President Abbas has evaded the democratic process, declining to hold elections for over a decade and failing to empower future leadership. How accurate is this? I know that Israel controls the ability of Gaza and the West Bank to hold elections and I was under the impression that they wouldn't allow elections to be held because Hamas would almost certainly win them. Or, rather, win them again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 14:38
|
|
|
Israel new raid of al-Shifa hospital, which was one of the only healthcare facilities left under partial operation. An uncharacteristically non-credulous article from today's NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/world/middleeast/israel-al-shifa-hospital-raid-gaza.html quote:One of Israel’s longest and deadliest hospital raids of the Gaza war stretched into a fourth day on Thursday, as the military said that it had killed dozens of people it described as terrorists in the previous 24 hours in its operation at Al-Shifa Hospital. Yesterday from al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/20/israeli-military-says-90-people-killed-in-gazas-al-shifa-hospital-raid quote:Al-Shifa, the Gaza Strip’s largest hospital before the current conflict started, is one of the few healthcare facilities that is even partially operational in the north of the enclave. quote:Displaced Palestinians spoke to Al Jazeera about their hours-long detentions during the Israeli army’s storming and siege of al-Shifa. The raid started early on Monday and the military said it had sent in special forces supported by infantry and tanks. https://aje.io/fw14mj?update=2787640 quote:Israeli forces are continuing attacks on homes near al-Shifa Hospital, according to our colleagues on the ground, who added that the forces are preventing ambulances or civil defence crew from reaching those injured from the attacks. In other war crime news, the IDF did some airstrikes targeting two refugee camps, killing 19 in one (including nine children), and 8 in another: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-airstrikes-kill-28-in-urban-refugee-camps-in-central-gaza
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 15:02
|
|
|
shimmy shimmy posted:How accurate is this? I know that Israel controls the ability of Gaza and the West Bank to hold elections and I was under the impression that they wouldn't allow elections to be held because Hamas would almost certainly win them. Or, rather, win them again. [My understanding as a dummy who just reads news articles is that] Abbas blames Israel for there not being a Palestinian Authority election, and he is correct in the limited sense that Israel won't allow an election in East Jerusalem. But he uses that as an excuse not to hold an election overall, because he knows he'd lose (probably to Hamas). quote:Abbas, 85, issued a presidential decree postponing the May 22 parliamentary and July 31 presidential elections, the official news agency WAFA said. I'd also add that "Israel prevents the elections because they don't want Hamas to win" is unlikely because Israel had, for decades until Oct 7, bolstered Hamas in order to make a two-state solution publicly understood to be impossible. It's the United States that wanted Hamas out of power because they wanted a public perception of progress toward a two-state solution. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 16:03
|
|
|
On that note, for like, a while Hamas has been significantly more popular than Fatah in the West Bank, often moreso than in Gaza proper. Fatah/PA are rightfully seen as complicit thugs who signed the West Bank into an awful deal, do nothing about the IDF-escorted settler lynchings, and mainly exist to put down protests & get pointed to by the US. https://aja.ws/rc5knz quote:Survey Studies: Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 16:10
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:[My understanding as a dummy who just reads news articles is that] Abbas blames Israel for there not being a Palestinian Authority election, and he is correct in the limited sense that Israel won't allow an election in East Jerusalem. But he uses that as an excuse not to hold an election overall, because he knows he'd lose (probably to Hamas). The status quo where Hamas controls the strip and Fatah controls the West Bank is what Israel wants because it divides the Palestinians into two factions. An unified government under any Palestinian party or faction is the last thing Israel would want.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 16:18
|
|
|
rscott posted:The status quo where Hamas controls the strip and Fatah controls the West Bank is what Israel wants because it divides the Palestinians into two factions. An unified government under any Palestinian party or faction is the last thing Israel would want. That's a good point. In the bottom line I think we should trust all the non-Abbas Palestinians saying "you could hold an election right now but you don't because you'd obviously lose your seat as a comprador to the occupiers." And the big picture is that representative democracy is difficult enough for first-world states, it's pretty loving impossible in the Palestinian context where your land is really administrated by another state that hates you and wants you defeated if not dead. And one of the failure cases is Fatah & Abbas. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 16:24
|
|
|
So is Netanyahu going to present a speech to the House at Speaker Johnson's invitation? I'd rather not have to hear him speak and let Bibi get even more leverage for poisoning American political discourse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 16:45
|
|
|
Thanks for everyone who helped explain more about the internal Palestinian political situation, that helps refine my understanding considerably.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 17:04
|
|
|
One of the most likely reasons for Oct 7 too was that Hamas was increasingly being seen as a passive or even collaborationist faction after the March of Return protests while smaller groups like PIJ and Lions Den were seen as the new real resistance.
Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 17:16
|
|
|
I don't think that either Hamas nor the PA are intentionally collaborationalist, but both are so woefully incompetent that they nonetheless prove extremely useful to Israel. Netanyahu based his whole approach to Palestine on this fact (which worked great up until Hamas turned out to be even more stupid than anyone could have anticipated).
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 17:32
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't think that either Hamas nor the PA are intentionally collaborationalist, but both are so woefully incompetent that they nonetheless prove extremely useful to Israel. Netanyahu based his whole approach to Palestine on this fact (which worked great up until Hamas turned out to be even more stupid than anyone could have anticipated). Was Hamas stupid for doing October 7? Obviously completely calloused to the loss of enemy civilian life, and demonstrating an inhuman comfort with inevitable danger to their own civilians, but that's not at all unique among political parties or armies. And like SMEGMA_MAIL says, Hamas was in serious competition and needed to make a big move to stay in power. So I think the operation as planned was a rational way to pursue the party's own interests - where it went wrong was for unpredictable reasons: the discovery of the Nova Festival and the IDF's lack of readiness resulted in far more civilian death than planned, including a lot of tourists/dual nationals dying or being kidnapped, laying the ideological foundation for Israel to unleash a total humanitarian catastrophe, either a genocide or a proto-genocide. But I don't think Hamas could have anticipated that on October 6. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 17:45
|
|
|
What would the competent approach of Hamas look like? Wait quietly as Palestine is ethnically cleansed in a slow(er) and quiet(er) genocide, rather than a louder and faster one?
Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 18:00
|
|
|
Reports are that the IDF is performing mass executions of prisoners International community must act immediately to stop Israeli army’s massacre of Palestinians at Al-Shifa Hospital quote:A survivor who asked to be identified only as “M.K.” confirmed that Israeli soldiers repeatedly took prisoners into the hospital’s morgue area, that gunshots were then heard, and that the soldiers left without the prisoners. “The soldiers detained me and handcuffed me in the hospital courtyard; I was left undressed for more than nine hours,” M.K. stated. Piell fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Mar 21, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 18:35
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:What would the competent approach of Hamas look like? Wait quietly as Palestine is ethnically cleansed in a slow(er) and quiet(er) genocide, rather than a louder and faster one? Secure and expand Palestine's borders by force, or enlist sponsors to do it. Outdo the Zionists at their own game. Not saying it's practical, but anything less just changes the timetable.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 19:10
|
|
|
Preen Dog posted:Secure and expand Palestine's borders by force, or enlist sponsors to do it. Outdo the Zionists at their own game. You can't really accomplish this as a guerilla force, because that would require static defensive positions on terrain the enemy is familiar with. Think ISIS; they started really cratering when they attempted to establish a state. What we're seeing in Gaza right now is effectively what the Viet Cong and the Taliban did; hit-and-run tactics from hidden positions & tunnels, as few "fair fights" as possible. It requires ceding territory in the short term and risks the occupying force doing what they want with the civillians, but it's the only real approach to asymmetrical warfare where you aren't the side funded by the country that can print free money.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 19:19
|
|
|
piL posted:Im not trying to support any argument, just dipping in to clarify this listed point that came up. According to Human Rights Watch, there are unconfirmed reports of such. yeah unconfirmed. At the same time there's enough people regularly working in the PRC or Russia for work that the NIS regularly honeypots korean immigrant labor into going through china and to Seoul for tabloid headlines.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 19:35
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:I haven't seen any discussion about Chuck Schumer's speech a few days ago. I found the video worth watching. The problem with Schumer's position is Israel isn't going to elect someone who wants to work towards peace. You'll get a slightly less corrupt guy who'll be as bloodthirsty but will be doing it because he wants to and not because he has to keep his rear end out of jail. The Israeli populace is far-right. No matter when or how this ends Hamas is going to end up more popular than ever. He's living in a fantasy world.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 20:12
|
|
|
Piell posted:Reports are that the IDF is performing mass executions of prisoners This is worse than anything that happened on october 7th.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 20:17
|
|
|
Piell posted:Reports are that the IDF is performing mass executions of prisoners Pretty sure this has been going on for awhile. Didn't they dig up corpses wrapped in plastic after the IDF left a hospital a month or two ago?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 20:54
|
|
|
Piell posted:Reports are that the IDF is performing mass executions of prisoners This is tremendously hosed up
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 20:55
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Was Hamas stupid for doing October 7? Obviously completely calloused to the loss of enemy civilian life, and demonstrating an inhuman comfort with inevitable danger to their own civilians, but that's not at all unique among political parties or armies. And like SMEGMA_MAIL says, Hamas was in serious competition and needed to make a big move to stay in power. Neurolimal posted:You can't really accomplish this as a guerilla force, because that would require static defensive positions on terrain the enemy is familiar with. Think ISIS; they started really cratering when they attempted to establish a state.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 21:09
|
|
|
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/21/us-submits-gaza-ceasefire-resolution-un-israel-hamas I really wish this had happened sooner. I am glad that actions are being taken that will prevent further deaths, but I am also filled with overwhelming rage when I remember that America blocked previous calls for a ceasefire twice. I start to physically shake with anger when I think of all the lives that could have been saved had America not voted against the ceasefire the first time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 22:38
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Supernova certainly made it a lot worse, but their actual error was strategic - there was obviously a large group of fighters who were instructed to kill as many civilians as possible. If they had decided to do a mission focused on taking hostages instead of mass murder then encountering Supernova would've been a stroke of luck This is not obvious at all
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 23:09
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Supernova certainly made it a lot worse, but their actual error was strategic - there was obviously a large group of fighters who were instructed to kill as many civilians as possible. If they had decided to do a mission focused on taking hostages instead of mass murder then encountering Supernova would've been a stroke of luck. Citation please
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 23:21
|
|
|
Space Cadet Omoly posted:https://www.axios.com/2024/03/21/us-submits-gaza-ceasefire-resolution-un-israel-hamas Isn't this the exact same bullshit pitch for a deal that the US has been pushing all along, and which Hamas has already rejected? Hamas wants an end to the genocide. Israel wants the hostages, and time to give their death squads a bit of R&R before they get back into it. They explicitly do not want the war to end. Unless the US has ordered Israel to permanently end the war, I doubt Hamas will agree to release the hostages. That's been their position all along: The hostages for a peace agreement.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 23:33
|
|
|
Slanderer posted:This is not obvious at all Agreed. They may have killed those civilians without orders. I'm curious if we have any insight into the instructions they were given.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 23:55
|
|
|
Slanderer posted:This is not obvious at all The Sean posted:Citation please According to Hamas, their fighters were extremely disciplined. But they also claimed that Israeli helicopter was the first to open fire at the nova festival. This is stated here: https://www.palestinechronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/PDF.pdf According to multiple eyewitnesses and video, Hamas was the first to attack at the festival. IDF didn’t show up until 7 hours later: https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2023/10/middleeast/hamas-music-festival-attack-investigation-cmd-intl/ So, either Hamas is lying about their disciplined troops or are lying about orders targeting civilians. Based on their “disciplined troops” verbiage and the amount of civilian death that occurred, it’s not a big leap to assume they were told there are no bad targets. At a minimum, I think it’s safe to assume they weren’t told to not murder civilians
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2024 23:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 02:23 |
|
|
Kalit posted:Based on their “disciplined troops” verbiage and the amount of civilian death that occurred, it’s not a big leap to assume they were told there are no bad targets. It seems like a very big leap to assume that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 00:00
|
|
