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Cojawfee posted:"Tell the Anjin that I accept his mall kiosk swords" "This is genuine Spenser's Gifts steel." Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 15:05
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:"This is genuine Spenser's Gifts steel." Liar!
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Mar 21, 2024 15:42
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Hanging up your game is completely normal and I'm not surprised that Hawthorne hosed it up.
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Mar 21, 2024 19:33
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I've never hung game before, does it actually start to smell? He says there will be a "terrible stench" after a week, but aging a pheasant shouldn't cause it to rot, right? He is kinda dumb though maybe he saw someone hang a pheasant for a week once in the proper conditions and just thought that's what you always do.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:35
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Maybe he's just a terrible cook and thinks rotten meat is fine, that rabbit stew did look pretty gross.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:37
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I think the idea is the warmer climate caused it to rot and be swarmed with flies way faster than what he expected.
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Mar 21, 2024 20:51
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Yeah I get that but as he's hanging it up he acknowledges Fuji holding her nose by saying "oh yes there will be a terrible stench", like that's a normal part of the aging process. My question is - is it?
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Mar 21, 2024 21:23
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Hirsute posted:Yeah I get that but as he's hanging it up he acknowledges Fuji holding her nose by saying "oh yes there will be a terrible stench", like that's a normal part of the aging process. My question is - is it? It's normal to hang a pheasant for around that long to age it to allow rigor mortis to pass, but it's meant to be somewhere cool and dry. He was just doing it wrong.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:44
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Hirsute posted:Yeah I get that but as he's hanging it up he acknowledges Fuji holding her nose by saying "oh yes there will be a terrible stench", like that's a normal part of the aging process. My question is - is it? My understanding is that it shouldn't stink. It might smell a little funny, just because it's a dead animal, but if it's not humid and there's decent air circulation it shouldn't be disgusting if you hang it up for 7-10 days. He just hosed it up.
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Mar 21, 2024 21:49
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Remember that he also only takes a bath once a week for fear of catching something. Different times.
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Mar 21, 2024 22:02
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Hirsute posted:I've never hung game before, does it actually start to smell? He says there will be a "terrible stench" after a week, but aging a pheasant shouldn't cause it to rot, right? He is kinda dumb though maybe he saw someone hang a pheasant for a week once in the proper conditions and just thought that's what you always do. Not to single you out specifically, but a lot of people seemed to miss this part: He specifically says, as he's hanging it, that his father used to poach game from the local lord's land and that his job as a child was to clean and hang it. I think it's a mix of "doesn't properly account for the humidity" (he says it requires proper weather) and backwards bumpkin knowledge that isn't entirely correct. (like bathing) VVV - at least to the first part, since Mariko was already married she was no longer the property of her father and thus I don't think she was subject to the punishment. Because if she was, it would be punishing her husband by taking his property rather than her father. The newborn in episode 1 was executed because it's father still "owned" it and he specifically offered to end his entire bloodline to wipe away his dishonor. Saganlives fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Mar 21, 2024 |
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Mar 21, 2024 22:10
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Just random episode 5 musings... So, what is the reasoning for Mariko being spared when her father had to execute everyone else? I know they said she was too young to fight, but she was already married, and they executed a newborn in episode 1...? Also, her version of the story is that her father was doing the right thing and assassinating a corrupt ruler. But the disdain that Buntaro shows for her makes me wonder if that's the story she tells herself, and really, he was just a failed coup leader. That would kind of mirror what she told Blackthorn about Fuji's swords just being dollar store swords because Fuji's father was actually just a coward and didn't die some noble death, but everyone is too polite to tell that to Fuji.
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Mar 21, 2024 22:10
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I believe in the book, as in real life, she went into hiding until the akechi rebellion was kind of old news and she could be rehabilitated. The real life version of buntaro was actually arguably kind of a rad dude by sengoku standards, it is a bit harder to understand why book version went for that other than some misdirected psycho-ness of wanting to punish her with life. In real life she converted to catholicism after that point, but I think the book is less clear about the timing. So maybe she could have also been kept around for basically the same reason she is kept around in the story's present time- she is intensely useful for understanding and dealing with foreigners
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Mar 21, 2024 22:23
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akechi is historically complicated and people have many opinions on his actions to this day, but they boil down to either "oda nobunaga was straight evil trash and its good he was killed but akechi wasnt gonna be much better" or "akechi was a lovely coward that botched his coup" in most popular knowledge/retellings
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Mar 21, 2024 22:24
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No Mods No Masters posted:I believe in the book, as in real life, she went into hiding until the akechi rebellion was kind of old news and she could be rehabilitated. The real life version of buntaro was actually arguably kind of a rad dude by sengoku standards, it is a bit harder to understand why book version went for that other than some misdirected psycho-ness of wanting to punish her with life. I just read this part in the book. Mariko gets sent up to the north island in the cold for 8 years by Buntaro. Then the Taiko tells him take her back but won't let her kill herself. Then she became Catholic when Buntaro was in Korea, and he cuts off the ears and hair of her maids, and the nose of her foster mother. He won't divorce her and she won't divorce him because of the shame she feels. Every year on the anniversary of her family's deaths she asks to kill herself but he says no. Mariko won't pillow with him anymore, which led to the beating when he was drunk. Sierra Nevadan fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 00:36
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wait did i misunderstand? i didn't think the gardener killed themselves, instead the headman executed him after he touched the pheasant (though he understood doing so meant death and volunteered to move the pheasant anyway)
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Mar 22, 2024 00:46
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I think it was Fujiko who had him put to death quote:He wept because a good man was dead unnecessarily and because he now knew that he had murdered him. “Lord God forgive me. I’m responsible — not Fujiko. I killed him. I ordered that no one was to touch the pheasant but me. I asked her if everyone understood and she said yes. I ordered it with mock gravity but that doesn’t matter now. I gave the orders, knowing their law and knowing their customs. The old man broke my stupid order so what else could Fujiko-san do? I’m to blame.”
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Mar 22, 2024 01:12
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ex post facho posted:wait did i misunderstand? i didn't think the gardener killed themselves, instead the headman executed him after he touched the pheasant (though he understood doing so meant death and volunteered to move the pheasant anyway) That was my take too. For one thing I don't know that peasants were even allowed to sudoku. Pheasants, either.
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Mar 22, 2024 01:24
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Scoss posted:I love the laugh that Toranaga gives when Blackthorne offers him his swords, clearly knowing their true provenance. I figure he was laughing because he was just buried alive, and after nearly dying, all anyone can think of is finding his swords. Near death experience showed him how ridiculous the whole thing was. Edit: akin to getting buried in an avalanche, saved, and everyone is frantically trying to find your phone. INTJ Mastermind fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 01:56
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Everyone keeps saying the weather conditions were all wrong for the pheasant. It might be humid, but there's snow all over, so it's gotta be pretty cold in the village. England is known for being rainy all the time too, it has to be pretty humid there yet the English can still hang their game. It sounds like he just forgot about it in the book, I think that's probably what the show was going for as well, with him being distracted every time someone tried to bring it up, and didn't convey it all that well.
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Mar 22, 2024 02:00
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ferroque posted:Loved this moment. He acknowledges their past but their actions in the moment give the swords a new, more important meaning. Sort of like how Mariko said that words imbue otherwise unimportant things with meaning. That's what I got from the reaction too. Thought that.....even though these swords had a dishonorable stigma attached to them.....they were Blackthorne's swords and he basically just saved Toranaga's life for the second time. Maybe a more meaningful gesture then everyone else thought. I'd assume the book may provide a bit more context? This is why I like reading the books prior to the show. But I almost strictly read science fiction. Might have to pick this one up though. RestingB1tchFace fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 02:23
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Dingleberry2 posted:Also, her version of the story is that her father was doing the right thing and assassinating a corrupt ruler. But the disdain that Buntaro shows for her makes me wonder if that's the story she tells herself, and really, he was just a failed coup leader. That would kind of mirror what she told Blackthorn about Fuji's swords just being dollar store swords because Fuji's father was actually just a coward and didn't die some noble death, but everyone is too polite to tell that to Fuji. In addition to what else has been said, regardless of anything else, you're only a traitor and a hated coward and piece of poo poo if you lose. It's the understood reverse of "Unless I win" that comes with gambling with rebellion, if you lose then your name will be cursed forever because everybody always hated you all along even if they didn't mention it before. If you win, you are the great hero and liberator who everybody always secretly wanted to win.
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Mar 22, 2024 02:28
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Why were they freaking out about the swords so much? Some other stupid honor thing? Toranga would have had to kill himself, his whole family, and the entire city of Edo if didn't have swords for a few minutes?
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Mar 22, 2024 02:29
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Yes, it's an honor/respect thingINTJ Mastermind posted:Edit: akin to getting buried in an avalanche, saved, and everyone is frantically trying to find your phone. Losing your swords back then could be like losing your grandma's antique wedding ring, except some blood was probably spilled over it. Sierra Nevadan fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 02:37
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RestingB1tchFace posted:I'd assume the book may provide a bit more context? This is why I like reading the books prior to the show. But I almost strictly read science fiction. Might have to pick this one up though. In my memory of that scene in the book he is just kind of exulting at being lucky enough to survive, plus the ironic backstory of the swords, plus being bound even more closely to blackthorne and/or given such a perfect chance to manipulate him closer. PostNouveau posted:Why were they freaking out about the swords so much? Some other stupid honor thing? Toranga would have had to kill himself, his whole family, and the entire city of Edo if didn't have swords for a few minutes? Yeah just a medieval "the lord should always have swords for honor" thing. I doubt it's even super historical honestly, though in the book there is also a lot more being worried about ninja attacks. That's shogun for you
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Mar 22, 2024 02:37
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PostNouveau posted:Why were they freaking out about the swords so much? Some other stupid honor thing? Toranga would have had to kill himself, his whole family, and the entire city of Edo if didn't have swords for a few minutes? I don't recall the specific reason given (if any) in the book, and it probably is just a specific honor thing where it's a bad look for their leader to be without his symbols of status. But just from a general perspective my first thought was people being very concerned about how it'll look if an earthquake suddenly smashes the place where Toranaga's army has only just arrived, where Jozen - a messenger of the currently valid government - was murdered, AND Toranaga loses his swords - some people including potential allies might see it as a sign from above that Toranaga is cursed (Catholics especially might declare it was a sign from God) for daring to stand against the other regents in violation of the Taiko's dying wish. Instead, an earthquake hits and Toranaga emerges alive because he's the one true man to unite Japan, and not even a natural disaster can stop him from his destiny!
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Mar 22, 2024 02:38
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No Mods No Masters posted:I doubt it's even super historical honestly, though in the book there is also a lot more being worried about ninja attacks. That's shogun for you Oh, I assumed a lot of that stuff is complete horseshit. The book was written by some white dude in the 1950s, right? Surely they weren't actually murdering infants over matters of honor and other such nonsense.
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Mar 22, 2024 02:43
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PostNouveau posted:Oh, I assumed a lot of that stuff is complete horseshit. The book was written by some white dude in the 1950s, right? Surely they weren't actually murdering infants over matters of honor and other such nonsense. Even worse, the 70s. If you haven't read it you have no idea just how much weird sex has been cut
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Mar 22, 2024 02:46
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Everyone hates weird sex in books whereas I skim looking for them
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Mar 22, 2024 02:48
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kiimo posted:Everyone hates weird sex in books whereas I skim looking for them Weird sex in books is one thing, weird sex scenes in a TV show are bad
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Mar 22, 2024 02:58
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true blood was a wildly popular show so im not sure thats true
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Mar 22, 2024 03:19
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PostNouveau posted:Oh, I assumed a lot of that stuff is complete horseshit. The book was written by some white dude in the 1950s, right? Surely they weren't actually murdering infants over matters of honor and other such nonsense. I mean that part's probably legit. You say you're gonna end your entire line, you gotta end your entire line.
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Mar 22, 2024 03:25
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Paper Lion posted:true blood was a wildly popular show so im not sure thats true Shaq: "I owe you an apology Lizzy Caplan. I wasn't really familiar with your game." ·
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Mar 22, 2024 03:28
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There were several sengoku families that were pretty heavy metal destroyed root and stem including ultimately the taiko's but yeah it probably wasn't going to happen to some dingus for yelling
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Mar 22, 2024 03:29
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No Mods No Masters posted:There were several sengoku families that were pretty heavy metal destroyed root and stem including ultimately the taiko's but yeah it probably wasn't going to happen to some dingus for yelling Yeah, after some cursory Googling: it's bullshit. The imperial Chinese dynasties would kill 9 family members of traitors, but even with that level of brutality, the children were exempt.
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Mar 22, 2024 03:34
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No Mods No Masters posted:The real life version of buntaro was actually arguably kind of a rad dude by sengoku standards So this is kinda debatable; Hosokawa Tadaoki historically was a complicated dude. On the one hand, he was an extremely cultured man; he didn't have quite the reputation as the pinnacle of reading, grace, and culture that his father Fujitaka did, but he was still highly regarded as someone who was very keyed into all the fancy courtly pastimes samurai were adopting at the time, as well as being extremely well-read. He was also likely a more competent battlefield commander than his father; Fujitaka is best known as being something of a liaison between the dying Ashikaga shogunate, the imperial court, and the various daimyo that held power in the region around Kyoto in the late Sengoku, which makes sense, since the Hosokawa family had been regents to the shogun for a very long time, and were highly influential in the region around the capital, but their participation in the actual fighting going on tended to be rather limited from my understanding of things. Tadaoki did take part in a number of Hideyoshi's campaigns, including in Korea, but I can't find any particular mention of his performance, so it seems he was relatively unremarkable in that regard. However, he was also apparently extremely ill-tempered; he apparently had some rather heated clashes with his father, and according to an account from his wife Gracia (the basis for Mariko), in his not-uncommon fits of anger he had killed more than one servant girl.
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Mar 22, 2024 03:49
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No Mods No Masters posted:In my memory of that scene in the book he is just kind of exulting at being lucky enough to survive, plus the ironic backstory of the swords, plus being bound even more closely to blackthorne and/or given such a perfect chance to manipulate him closer. I'm only half-remembering the book, but in James Clavell's Japan someone of Toranaga's position and stature almost certainly would have been carrying masterpiece heirloom swords. "This legendary swordsmith only made three swords, and I have one" sort of thing. Also in the book, Toranaga was actually angry about losing them to the point that Blackthorne, despite his limited Japanese, clearly understood that Toranaga was expressing "goddamnit I've lost my swords gently caress" Edit: Found it quote:Toranaga was unable to speak, his chest grinding, his arms and legs raw with abrasions. He pointed. The fissure which had almost swallowed him now was just a narrow ditch in the soil. Northward the ditch yawned into a ravine again but it was not as wide as it once had been, nor as deep. McNally fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 05:27
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PostNouveau posted:Yeah, after some cursory Googling: it's bullshit. Which makes me wonder if the show writers had an idea when deconstructing a lot of Clavell's cultural assumptions from the novel: "Guys, is Toranaga the baddie?" I mentioned many pages back how I burned myself out on Great Man historical fiction, and Clavell loved that poo poo. Morals are important, but they come a definite second to ACHIEVING THINGS in his world.
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Mar 22, 2024 06:34
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Which makes me wonder if the show writers had an idea when deconstructing a lot of Clavell's cultural assumptions from the novel: "Guys, is Toranaga the baddie?" Sanada, at least, has been quite vocal on the press tour saying that he sees Toranaga as a heroic figure and an exemplar, so it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the character arc plays out.
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Mar 22, 2024 10:10
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grobbo posted:Sanada, at least, has been quite vocal on the press tour saying that he sees Toranaga as a heroic figure and an exemplar, so it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the character arc plays out. I haven't read the book in years but I think I just remembered something. HEAVY BOOK SPOILER: Like seriously there be dragons ahead so don't peek. Isn't a huge reason that Toranaga isn't all in on the Heir is because he either knows, or is at least heavily suspicious, that the Heir is illegitimate? Like the Taiko was too old to actually have a kid and Ochiba was power hungry so she fucks some peasant who kind of looks like the Taiko and Toranaga knows? That would also explain why she's going all Cersei at the end of last episode...
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Mar 22, 2024 11:50
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