[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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really queer Christmas: Apr 22, 2014

VoicesCanBe posted:

https://twitter.com/VladNed/status/1771143290265510099

This is a crazy lack of self-awareness. I don't think Ukrainians should be "grateful" because NATO basically lead them like lambs to a slaughter (with Zelensky's gleefully going along with it), but both the military and the state itself would've collapsed by the end of 2022 without the massive amount of war material and other aid that Ukraine has received.

Tiktok tankies lol

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:21

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# ? May 23, 2024 21:53

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Tic-Tac-Tankies

A winner.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:23

Phigs: Jan 23, 2019

Look the people who the law said are in charge made a law to say we have to do monstrous things so we had no choice.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:23

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

VoicesCanBe posted:

What is a Latvia, it sounds like a reddit country

AnimeIsTrash posted:

is that a kind of dog

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:24

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

Phigs posted:

Look the people who the law said are in charge made a law to say we have to do monstrous things so we had no choice.

to do otherwise would be unlawful and that is the way of chaos and disorder. put your effort into organizing for the upcoming election

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:26

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Phigs posted:

Look the people who the law said are in charge made a law to say we have to do monstrous things so we had no choice.

lol it goes back to the myth of a tiny group of Nazis illegally seizing power.

"Sure, these people are outnumbered and no one supports them, but they're in charge of the entire state now because...?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJnxmAh1yGg

"The attacks orchestrated by the Sons of Jacob to the Capitol, The White House and the Supreme Court, which led then to Martial Law and the Suspension of the Constitution."

Oh, well, if you can attack the three magic buildings, instead of being called out to crush you, the army divisions march back to their barracks to await your orders, which they will obey without hesitation. :dumb:

This is not because the army and ruling class support you, and have all along, as well as the majority of the middle class, but because they respect the law, and if the law says you're in charge, befel ist befel. The army machine-gunned a protest of people against the illegal seizure of power, not because they wanted to, but because the people who illegally seized power... ordered them to? But they didn't machine gun those people, when they were seizing power because...?

loving Harry Potter logic.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 18:30 on Mar 22, 2024

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:27

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

Homeless Friend posted:

what's in the third panel in the original

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:27

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, in the Handmaid's tale, both the book and the show, it is usually glossed over exactly who is supporting the government beyond its own soldiers and higher-ups. It just sort of takes over, everyone is cool with it, and there is almost no resistance until much later. Fascism via space aliens.

Even in later seasons, it makes less sense because large portions of the West Coast are still fighting, Texas is independent, large parts of the Midwest are radioactive, and Appalachia is in rebellion. Who is left to actually support it? Magicians?

Putin as Voldemort is nothing new; from Stalin to Saddam to Gilead to whatever, all of them are warlocks who just took power for the sake of evil. Fascism is a economic or political process, it is when bad guys do bad things.

(Add Star Wars to the list as well, it is pretty much the same thing, although Palps is literally a magic user. Lord of the Rings is even more simplistic.)

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 18:36 on Mar 22, 2024

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:32

tristeham: Jul 31, 2022

VoicesCanBe posted:

https://twitter.com/VladNed/status/1771143290265510099

lol

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:34

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t10AXLuTUEM

They really believe that Nazism is spread by vibes, even though the scene starts at a loving staffing agency.

All of the women have master's degrees and professional jobs, but the men are thuggish losers who couldn't hold down a job at Walmart before the coming of the Fourth Reich. :dumb:

Ardennes posted:

Add Star Wars to the list as well, it is pretty much the same thing, although Palps is literally a magic user.

Star Wars is very simple, in a way. There was a clone army to do all the fighting. For the middle class, there was no downside to the expansion of the state or whatever else, because they had all of the benefits of a war economy without any of the sacrifices. Not just some families getting lucky with asthma and bone spur differs, or Space National Guard - with a clone army, literally nobody in society bears any burdens, it's the easiest sell in the world.

Which is why Lucas saying it was about Vietnam kind of breaks down, because Obi Wan and Luke talk about the Clone Wars in a New Hope like it's something that mattered, but since nobody had skin in the game, there's no reason for it to be a cultural trauma or whatever.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 18:38 on Mar 22, 2024

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:35

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

VoicesCanBe posted:

https://twitter.com/VladNed/status/1771143290265510099

This is a crazy lack of self-awareness. I don't think Ukrainians should be "grateful" because NATO basically lead them like lambs to a slaughter (with Zelensky's gleefully going along with it), but both the military and the state itself would've collapsed by the end of 2022 without the massive amount of war material and other aid that Ukraine has received.

just checked the wikipedia page for the war again and they still have not added any countries supporting ukraine lol

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:38

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

[All of the women have master's degrees and professional jobs, but the men are thuggish losers who couldn't hold down a job at Walmart before the coming of the Fourth Reich.

this is infuriating. if you believe this how do you explain, for example, Dr. Fitz Todt, Albert Speer, or Dr. Hjalmar Schacht?

bedpan has issued a correction as of 18:49 on Mar 22, 2024

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:46

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Star Wars is very simple, in a way. There was a clone army to do all the fighting. For the middle class, there was no downside to the expansion of the state or whatever else, because they had all of the benefits of a war economy without any of the sacrifices. Not just some families getting lucky with asthma and bone spur differs, or Space National Guard - with a clone army, literally nobody in society bears any burdens, it's the easiest sell in the world.

Which is why Lucas saying it was about Vietnam kind of breaks down, because Obi Wan and Luke talk about the Clone Wars in a New Hope like it's something that mattered, but since nobody had skin in the game, there's no reason for it to be a cultural trauma or whatever.

Granted, the rebels also don't make much sense either, it is like literally couple thousand guys versus the government. If they were so evil, why doesn't literally anyone else in the galaxy give a poo poo?

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:50

Bar Crow: Oct 10, 2012

slave to my cravings posted:

they voted which absolves them of responsibility

Which is the point of the process. People can pretend to be good with the assurance that their altruistic gestures are properly disposed of and not taken seriously.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:54

DeimosRising: Oct 17, 2005; �Hola SEA!

Ardennes posted:

Granted, the rebels also don't make much sense either, it is like literally couple thousand guys versus the government. If they were so evil, why doesn't literally anyone else in the galaxy give a poo poo?

they have an industrial military producing weapons of mass destruction and equipment equivalent to what the empire has, a full military hierarchy, and evidently considerable support in parliament. in the first movie they launch multiple waves of fighters and blow up the Yamato or whatever. The films only ever show one or another military camp at a time but it's obvious the rebels are not just a couple thousand guys

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t10AXLuTUEM

They really believe that Nazism is spread by vibes, even though the scene starts at a loving staffing agency.

All of the women have master's degrees and professional jobs, but the men are thuggish losers who couldn't hold down a job at Walmart before the coming of the Fourth Reich.

Star Wars is very simple, in a way. There was a clone army to do all the fighting. For the middle class, there was no downside to the expansion of the state or whatever else, because they had all of the benefits of a war economy without any of the sacrifices. Not just some families getting lucky with asthma and bone spur differs, or Space National Guard - with a clone army, literally nobody in society bears any burdens, it's the easiest sell in the world.

Which is why Lucas saying it was about Vietnam kind of breaks down, because Obi Wan and Luke talk about the Clone Wars in a New Hope like it's something that mattered, but since nobody had skin in the game, there's no reason for it to be a cultural trauma or whatever.

for obi wan it was, because most of the casualties were to his specific religious order. luke doesn't talk about it like a cultural trauma, he thinks it was a badass adventure and he want to hear war stories. the republic becomes the empire easily and with no resistance because liberals love fascism. the ur-liberal character, Padme, literally gets horny about and marries fascism

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:58

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Ardennes posted:

The Ukrainians did much to actually damage the refineries based on video evidence (there is a certain amount of magical thinking going on, we are talking about a couple drones) but on the other hand that doesn't mean the Russians can't retaliate. One of the biggest upcoming affects on oil prices is probably nothing to do with this war, but the war for the Indian Ocean and winter storms in the Cape of Good Hope.

...winter?

# ? Mar 22, 2024 18:59

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

If anything the Rebels do the Israeli thing of making everyone a commander and/or a general as well. You see a couple bases, and a small fleet, and you are expected to believe this is most of what they have. I mean they took out the Death Star with 2 squadrons of fighters because that is what they had on hand. There is a bunch of expanded universe stuff, most of it was jettisoned; it doesn't seem like a huge organization, it a huge galaxy.

The Cape of Good Hope is in the southern hemisphere, it will become winter there during the north's summer.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 19:08 on Mar 22, 2024

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:00

my bony fealty: Oct 1, 2008

Drake no The Handmaid's Tale

Drake yes The Goblin Maid's Tail

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:04

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

WRT Italy, there's a great book about how Italy being so late to industrialize created the social conditions for fascism and luxury goods. The author does a great job in connecting the two things, it's very cool but I'm having a hard time offering a succulent explanation as to why they should be connected. Certainly the Italian fascist aesthetic, futurism, the emphasis on aeroplanes, fast cars and so on makes a lot of sense.

The Art of Objects: The Birth of Italian Industrial Culture, 1878-1928

The Art of Objects is a cultural history of early Italian industrialism, set against the political, social, and intellectual background of post-unification Italy, and a cutting-edge investigation of the formation of Italy's industrial culture at the turn of the twentieth century. Providing a close examination of several objects of mass consumption, including watches, photographs, bicycles, gramophones, cigarettes, and toys, author Luca Cottini explores the transformation of these objects from commercial items into aesthetic and philosophical icons.

By focusing on the cultural significance of these objects as they enter the market and appear in contemporary works of art and literature, The Art of Objects outlines a comprehensive view of the age between the unification of Italy and Fascism, encompassing production and consumption, aesthetics and entrepreneurship, industry and the humanistic tradition. The observation of the slow formation of new languages, practices, and experiences around these objects also provides valuable insight into the creative laboratory of Italy's early industrial culture. By reconstructing the origins of the Italian culture of design, the book ultimately investigates Italy's critical reception of industrialism, the nation's so-called "imperfect" modernization, and its ongoing quest for an original way to modernity.

e: and Made in Italy: Small-Scale Industrialization and Its Consequences

The first study of its kind to be published in English, this volume offers a unique contemporary and historical analysis of postwar small-scale industrialization in central and northeastern Italy. Based on a 21-month field study undertaken by the author, Made in Italy covers a 100-year time period that encompasses the transformation of central Italy from a poor, agriculturally backward rural society into an important postwar industrial producer of export goods for the world market. Author Michael Blim challenges the widely discussed model for industrial revival proposed by Piore and Sabel in their 1984 study, arguing that forms of labor exploitation rather than technological innovation account for the central-northeastern Italian industrial success. He also challenges contemporary economic policy notions that argue that this kind of industrial success is longlasting and easily replicable in other late-developing regions, asserting instead that the petty entrepreneurial, familial character of the Italian small-scale industrial sector militates against its ultimate durability in a world dominated by transnational corporations.

Blim starts from the premise that the rapid postwar economic development in the towns of central and northeastern Italy was the culmination of a century-long process of radical social change. Taking the shoe industry as an example, Blim shows how postwar entrepreneurs, accustomed to an economic system based on family enterprises, created an innovative local production system utilizing the cooperation of highly specialized firms. Although the enterprises enjoyed remarkable success, Blim demonstrates that profits depended greatly upon the exploitation of secondary labor populations, and the use of undocumented labor, facts usually ignored in other treatments of central-northeastern Italian economic development. Organized into three sections, the study first analyzes social and economic life between the Unification of Italy and the end of World War II. Subsequent chapters discuss the rise of the new industrial order and its labor process, describe the social and political consequences of postwar development, and offer the author's conclusions. Students of economic development, anthropology, and sociology will find this an important counterweight to studies that fail to assess the sometimes deleterious effects of postwar industrialization.

e: I forgot that in Harry Potter all of the characters are like "Oi! The government ministry is run by fascists now, that's not very nice. Oh well, time for a cuppa."

this does sound pretty interesting. thanks for sharing.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:06

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

WRT Italy, there's a great book about how Italy being so late to industrialize created the social conditions for fascism and luxury goods. The author does a great job in connecting the two things, it's very cool

Heavy industry: good and communist

Consumer goods: bad and fascist

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:11

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:12

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Terrorists struck a Moscow theater, countless dead. Putin's revenge on the perpetrators will be massive

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:13

Bar Crow: Oct 10, 2012

DeimosRising posted:

for obi wan it was, because most of the casualties were to his specific religious order. luke doesn't talk about it like a cultural trauma, he thinks it was a badass adventure and he want to hear war stories. the republic becomes the empire easily and with no resistance because liberals love fascism. the ur-liberal character, Padme, literally gets horny about and marries fascism

Palpatine built the Death Star so he could finally get rid of the liberals enabling the empire. Immediately dumpstering the Senate as soon as it was up and running.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:14

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

mawarannahr posted:

this does sound pretty interesting. thanks for sharing.

lol I meant succinct explanation, but considering family owned luxury businesses made fascism in Italy, and were the backbone of postwar Italian anti-communism (but I repeat myself) succulent was an appropriate typo.

It's also why Italy's military had so many problems in WW2. There was absolutely no way to get any of the industrial firms to do anything productive. The aeroplane manufacturers thought they were making racing planes, so they were lovingly crafting hand built fighters in workshops, and were always tinkering with the (also hand built) engines, to the point where by 1942 Italy relied on Germany providing Daimler-Benz DB 605 engines to actually get planes in the air.

For several roles, they had to use German planes because their industry was unresponsive. They increasingly depended on German provided Stuka's, and entirely on German night fighters and radars, since Italy produced neither. Armoured vehicle production, same deal. Italy's artillery park was old, but the soldiers were considered the most competent in the military, by themselves and by the British. I would wager this is in part because artillery production was directly controlled by the state, unlike small arms, vehicles, aircraft etc. since it dated back to the Kingdom of Sardinia.

In the navy, there were something like 23 models of torpedo in service, because again, each luxury watchmaking firm would produce their own collector's edition, basically. On the other hand, Italian ships were well built and highly regarded, but they were slow to be delivered. There were all sorts of ships that were laid down and missed the war. At the same time, the Italian government did not do a great job actually controlling and rationing fuel so the Regia Marina did not actually put to sea when they need to, say when Sicily and Italy were being invaded.

People like to mock Italy in WW2, deservedly so in many areas, but the problem was never at the level of the Italian soldier, the British and American equipped Co-Belligerents fought very well, but because the coalition behind Italian fascism, even more than Naziism, was incapable of actually fighting a war. For Italy to fight a war on that scale well would require Mussolini forcing his own base of power to do things they didn't want to do.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 19:25 on Mar 22, 2024

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:14

Leandros: Dec 14, 2008

Nonsense posted:

Terrorists struck a Moscow theater, countless dead. Putin's revenge on the perpetrators will be massive

Multiple western governments apprised their citizens of this, too, goddamn.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:25

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Imagine looking at the Second Chechen War and thinking "This is what we need to turn things around".

RIP Ukraine, I guess.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:27

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

did ukraine do another terrorism

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:29

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Ardennes posted:

If anything the Rebels do the Israeli thing of making everyone a commander and/or a general as well. You see a couple bases, and a small fleet, and you are expected to believe this is most of what they have. I mean they took out the Death Star with 2 squadrons of fighters because that is what they had on hand. There is a bunch of expanded universe stuff, most of it was jettisoned; it doesn't seem like a huge organization, it a huge galaxy.

The Cape of Good Hope is in the southern hemisphere, it will become winter there during the north's summer.

oh i missed the "upcoming events"

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:30

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

Raskolnikov38 posted:

did ukraine do another terrorism

im going to imagine the western govs are going to make this illegal to investigate just like the pipeline

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:30

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Raskolnikov38 posted:

did ukraine do another terrorism

We�re going to see hitherto unknown levels of passive voice to arguable it�s impossible to say who is responsible.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:31

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I think they will just openly justify it

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:33

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

There's a pretty good chance it was ISIS, the FSB just foiled an attack by them recently.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:34

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

so the USA?

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:36

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

my bony fealty posted:

Drake no The Handmaid's Tale

Drake yes The Goblin Maid's Tail

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:36

Ferdinand Bardamu: Apr 30, 2013

but but but the experts in GBS and DnD say it smells of the FSB.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:37

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Yeah, I expected something to go down eventually like this in Moscow when the Ukrainians were truly getting desperate. I mean Putin already has his mandate, the Russian public isn't going to care if brings out the big guns.

I guess the metro is a pretty tough nut to crack at this point since there are so many uniformed officers and facial recognition everywhere.

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:37

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

post the memritv skit

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:37

Ghetto Prince: Sep 11, 2010; got to be mellow, y'all

Are the Ukrainian agencies just going rogue with with this poo poo ? What was a Bataclan style massacre in Moscow supposed to accomplish?

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:38

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

euphronius posted:

I think they will just openly justify it

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:39

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# ? May 23, 2024 21:53

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://x.com/RT_com/status/1771240896828215369?s=20

quote:

40 people killed and more than 100 injured in Crocus City Hall terror attack � reports

# ? Mar 22, 2024 19:39

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