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A Moose posted:The idea is to let another color deal with ETBs other than blue. White kind of can, but only with cards that kinda suck otherwise, except for elesh norn. Every color gets ETBs so it feels like each color should have a way of dealing with them. This wasn't a problem when you were paying 5 mana for a 2/2 and a sorcery from your graveyard, or 4 mana for a 2/2 flyer that kills an enchantment. Nekrataal was kind of an outlier though. Seems like it'd be easier to return etb prevention home, to inexpensive artifacts. Print Torpor Orb-bot, a 2/2 for 2 generic.
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Mar 21, 2024 23:32
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What about a Threaten-like ability that causes a creature spell to ETB on your side of the field until end of turn? That's definitely an ability in red's slice of pie. I could also see a Stifle/Silence type of effect that narrowly scopes ETB effects making thematic sense, but I'm not sure if that one fits the color pie
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Mar 22, 2024 02:24
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Act of treason but on the stack would be insane
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Mar 22, 2024 02:47
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ilmucche posted:Act of treason but on the stack would be insane Yes that is why the closest card that came to that is already in blue
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Mar 22, 2024 03:03
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dragon enthusiast posted:What about a Threaten-like ability that causes a creature spell to ETB on your side of the field until end of turn? That's definitely an ability in red's slice of pie. Commandeer, Aether Snatch are permanent versions of this in blue
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Mar 22, 2024 03:46
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Commandeer, Aether Snatch are permanent versions of this in blue Gather specimens is the closest current analog.
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Mar 22, 2024 04:07
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dragon enthusiast posted:What about a Threaten-like ability that causes a creature spell to ETB on your side of the field until end of turn? That's definitely an ability in red's slice of pie. That's clever, I like it. I think the wording would be awkward under current rules, but it's a fun idea and could probably be costed at 1R.
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Mar 22, 2024 04:22
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Chamale posted:That's clever, I like it. I think the wording would be awkward under current rules, but it's a fun idea and could probably be costed at 1R. I've been thinking through ways of doing it, and I don't think there's a pithy way to do it if you want control to go back to the person who controlled the creature spell rather than its owner.
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Mar 22, 2024 04:34
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I've been thinking through ways of doing it, and I don't think there's a pithy way to do it if you want control to go back to the person who controlled the creature spell rather than its owner. I think this is rare enough that it's not worth worrying about. Just do something like: quote:Gain control of target creature spell. (That creature will enter the battlefield under your control). At the beginning of your next end step, return that creature to its owner's control. The very few times that you get to blow someone out by doing it to a creature spell that they themselves stole off someone else aren't a problem with the design, they're actually a fun interaction.
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Mar 22, 2024 04:40
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Jabor posted:I think this is rare enough that it's not worth worrying about. Just do something like: You'd want the give control effect to not be a trigger for it to be a true threaten, but yeah basically that's what I came up with (plus haste)
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Mar 22, 2024 04:45
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MrL_JaKiri posted:I've been thinking through ways of doing it, and I don't think there's a pithy way to do it if you want control to go back to the person who controlled the creature spell rather than its owner. Gain control of target creature spell. It gains "at the beginning of your next end step, exile this creature and return it to the battlefield under its owner's control." Letting the opponent get the etb again feels more like a red drawback to me.
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Mar 22, 2024 04:48
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MrL_JaKiri posted:You'd want the give control effect to not be a trigger for it to be a true threaten, but yeah basically that's what I came up with (plus haste) I went with not giving it haste, but instead returning at the end of your next turn, because most of the time your opponents will be playing creatures on their turn and not yours anyway.
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Mar 22, 2024 05:26
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Jabor posted:I went with not giving it haste, but instead returning at the end of your next turn, because most of the time your opponents will be playing creatures on their turn and not yours anyway. Ah yeah, makes sense
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Mar 22, 2024 05:41
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mossyfisk posted:So rather than a MtG set, it would be some sort of "un"set? I've only played Unfinity and they definitely weren't going for some crazy power level, and it has cards used in other formats and is designed power wise to work with the rest of magic cards. Were past unsets on a crazy power level, I thought they mostly leaned into messy and goofy gimmicks. Likewise Alchemy goes in other formats and they sometimes make things weaker in consideration of cards outside it's set. Alchemy sets are also composed of just plain old set cards. Arena would be the ideal place for what I'm picturing, but we're lucky to get a crummy momir everyone once in a while and a huge chunk of playerbase refuse to engage with any non-paper parity cards.
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Mar 22, 2024 05:51
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ETB Threaten is way stronger than regular Threaten if that's the baseline we're going with - not only does the opponent lose the ETB, but also possibly a combat phase depending on when they cast the creature. Threaten abilities sometimes cause instant scoops in my Limited games. Maybe it should ETB tapped on your side of the board?
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Mar 22, 2024 05:56
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an instant speed threaten with a delayed trigger to return it to its owner's control sounds insane. I'll just stifle the trigger, or discontinuity myself before my end step. I think it would have to be costed 2RR at minimum if we're talking mh3 power level.
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Mar 22, 2024 10:36
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If they ever decided they wanted to open up this design space they would probably frankly just write into the comprehensive rules "gain control of target creature spell when it enters the battlefield until end of turn" Just Works and completely sidestep any sort of stifle issues the same way you can't stifle or discontinuity an ACTUAL threaten. Problems with our hackjob solutions to make it work under the existing rules don't really apply to the people who can just add those changes to the rules. They could also choose to keyword it and make the simple version just be the reminder text, working any necessary fixes and edge cases into the rules of the keyword directly.
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Mar 22, 2024 11:02
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kalel posted:an instant speed threaten with a delayed trigger to return it to its owner's control sounds insane. I'll just stifle the trigger, or discontinuity myself before my end step. you can already build your own two-card control magic with regular threaten and cloudshift. it's not really going to be setting the world on fire.
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Mar 22, 2024 11:25
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also the really broken part of "instant-speed threaten" (like ray of command) is taking your opponent's creature during combat and using it to block for a clean 2-for-1. you're not doing that with this, so it's not really comparable.
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Mar 22, 2024 11:29
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kalel posted:an instant speed threaten with a delayed trigger to return it to its owner's control sounds insane. I'll just stifle the trigger, or discontinuity myself before my end step. I feel like if you're spending two cards to get control of a single creature that's not really that insane Maybe it's super good in commander or something? Since I guess you can use it to steal a commander.
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Mar 22, 2024 12:41
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Red has counterspells already, the lovely punisher one mentioned, tibalts trickery, reb/pyro and all of the redirection spells Problem is wotc doesn't print redirection spells nearly as much as they should, and they always overcost them. Last one in a standard set was Bolt Bend in WAR iirc
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Mar 22, 2024 12:58
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Khanstant posted:I've only played Unfinity and they definitely weren't going for some crazy power level, and it has cards used in other formats and is designed power wise to work with the rest of magic cards. I think since you started playing Magic with Arena, you might be a little confused. People's reaction to alchemy cards entering wider formats isn't typical of normal standard cards. Alchemy is a special kind of bullshit that should be contained to its own space so that we don't have to deal with it in Brawl for example. Alchemy cards are often poorly designed, gimmicky, and also really hard to play around because not only do you have to know what a card does, but also have all the spellbooks memorized. And that's not even getting into collecting the cards themselves. What happens when you craft a new, super OP alchemy card to make a tier 1 deck and it gets rebalanced? Now it's probably useless and you get nothing back.
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Mar 22, 2024 14:28
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ilmucche posted:Act of treason but on the stack would be insane Red is the color of changing the target of spells (and copying them, in the case of wild riccochet) ... and blue (misdirection) Fully stealing a spell off the stack is blue (commandeer)
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Mar 22, 2024 15:14
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HootTheOwl posted:Red is the color of changing the target of spells (and copying them, in the case of wild riccochet) ... and blue (misdirection) I'm changing the target of your creature spell to my battlefield.
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Mar 22, 2024 15:46
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Red is also the colour of doing things blue does but poo poo.
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Mar 22, 2024 15:48
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A Moose posted:I think since you started playing Magic with Arena, you might be a little confused. People's reaction to alchemy cards entering wider formats isn't typical of normal standard cards. Alchemy is a special kind of bullshit that should be contained to its own space so that we don't have to deal with it in Brawl for example. Alchemy cards are often poorly designed, gimmicky, and also really hard to play around because not only do you have to know what a card does, but also have all the spellbooks memorized. And that's not even getting into collecting the cards themselves. What happens when you craft a new, super OP alchemy card to make a tier 1 deck and it gets rebalanced? Now it's probably useless and you get nothing back. The worst alchemy card to deal with in Brawl is fuckin Key to the Archive, because it gives dickheads access to cards outside of their color identity Cool, you Desparked my big threat/enabler in your mono red deck, awesome, I love that Oh what, you just cast Time Warp in your w/g tokens deck while I was holding a board wipe? good for you, champ
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Mar 22, 2024 16:16
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Khanstant posted:I've only played Unfinity and they definitely weren't going for some crazy power level, and it has cards used in other formats and is designed power wise to work with the rest of magic cards. The thing about the Unsets before Unfinity is that they were essentially what you were asking for in your original post: a set testing weird mechanics that's fun to draft and is then only relevant for casual kitchen table Magic. The problem is that unsets were explicitly banned from normal MtG formats, so instead of doing that everyone went "well, I'm not allowed to use these cards" and put them on the shelf forever. Thus, unsets had a lot of good designs that may as well have been shoved directly into a woodchipper. Thus, future sets that exist to just be a good draft format and test out some mechanics have to make a decision: do you want to explicitly ban it from other formats and throw all those cards in the trash as soon as the draft is over, or do you make it legal and have what happened with Unfinity or a particularly dull standard set: a handful of cards have an impact in constructed formats because if you're making interesting cards a few of them are going to, and the rest of the set is cards people think are cool but they could never quite make them work. (... Which admittedly means most of the cards in the latter sets are also effectively thrown in the trash, but at least there's hope.) Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 17:03
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Weird Pumpkin posted:I generally agree with you on this, but I think the ship has sailed. Certainly it's dead permanently in anything bigger than standard because I think it would be pretty hard to print a creature that doesn't generate immediate value but is still playable without getting into ragavan levels of abilities on them? How big would a 2, 3, or 4 mana vanilla green creature have to be to be standard playable? 2 mana is at least 4/4 right?
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Mar 22, 2024 17:08
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distortion park posted:How big would a 2, 3, or 4 mana vanilla green creature have to be to be standard playable? 2 mana is at least 4/4 right? I don't think a vanilla 4-mana creature can be playable in constructed. No evasion, no protection, costs 4 mana, it could be a 99/99 and it'll mostly get chumped or removed and it spent your whole turn 4. 2-3 drops are a little better because that early in the game, your opponent is likely going to spend their entire turn dealing with it. With a 3-drop, your opponent might have 2-mana removal but not have a 1-mana play after that, so it's closer to tempo neutral. Strixhaven had a 4-mana 11/10 that required a sacrifice on attack or block M19 had Gigantosaurus, a 5-mana 10/10 that cost GGGGG. Aphrodite posted:Bloated Contaminator is a 4/4 with trample, toxic and proliferate on combat damage for 3. That actually saw play though, didn't it? In the standard G/W toxic deck. A Moose fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Mar 22, 2024 |
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Mar 22, 2024 17:31
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Bloated Contaminator is a 4/4 with trample, toxic and proliferate on combat damage for 3.
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Mar 22, 2024 17:37
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I know it's stupid but I kind of just wish there was a formula to creature costs. Like each colored pip after the first was equivalent to 2 colorless, that sort of thing.
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Mar 22, 2024 17:42
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A Moose posted:That actually saw play though, didn't it? In the standard G/W toxic deck. Right, that's what I mean. That's what you have to compete with. A vanilla at 3 should be like...10/10 now.
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Mar 22, 2024 17:50
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Aphrodite posted:Right, that's what I mean. That's what you have to compete with. I think it depends on how new the Standard is. Post rotation, I could see a 2 mana 3/4, or a 3 mana 5/5 seeing play in an aggro deck.
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Mar 22, 2024 17:57
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Lurks With Wolves posted:The thing about the Unsets before Unfinity is that they were essentially what you were asking for in your original post: a set testing weird mechanics that's fun to draft and is then only relevant for casual kitchen table Magic. The problem is that unsets were explicitly banned from normal MtG formats, so instead of doing that everyone went "well, I'm not allowed to use these cards" and put them on the shelf forever. Thus, unsets had a lot of good designs that may as well have been shoved directly into a woodchipper. Yeah it does string when an unset has a really cool card design that's locked into acorn/silver land despite being a perfectly fair and functional card. Saw in Half is my favourite MtG card period, would suck if I had to rule 0 it every deck I wanted it in. I did once do a jump in or some weird LGS even and made a deck using one chunk of a random unset, it had a Sword of Something and Something that seemed perfectly valid and in-line with the other swords of that suite, resolved to put it in a deck eventually stuck it in my good rares binder. Just think it's neat. There definitely is a real concern with what you do with your paper, it's expensive and upwards of 40 bucks is a lot of money for a couple hours of fun.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:04
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A Moose posted:I think since you started playing Magic with Arena, you might be a little confused. People's reaction to alchemy cards entering wider formats isn't typical of normal standard cards. Alchemy is a special kind of bullshit that should be contained to its own space so that we don't have to deal with it in Brawl for example. Alchemy cards are often poorly designed, gimmicky, and also really hard to play around because not only do you have to know what a card does, but also have all the spellbooks memorized. And that's not even getting into collecting the cards themselves. What happens when you craft a new, super OP alchemy card to make a tier 1 deck and it gets rebalanced? Now it's probably useless and you get nothing back. Yeah I actually like Alchemy probably more than most, just conceptually I want things like on the fly rebalancing and meta shakeups very often. I'd always rather play 10 different decks poorly than play one ten times and get good at it, novelty over mastery. I don't end up playing Alchemy much because it's already hard to have a good variety of decks for standard, and slowly slowly building up manabase and staples for the legacy formats. So when it comes to spending a wild card it's always better to spend it on a more versatile card. It would be cool if Alchemy was Alchemy only, when I first started Arena I thought that's what it was but them adding it to their WIP pioneer/modern formats just makes it a mess. All the lovely and messy alchemy cards can be fun in a space meant for them, in an environment made for eachother and where you'll naturally pick up what poo poo does as you play, but they do not stay in their lane. That's a little annoying because even in just loose brainstorming for hypothetical fantasy set concepts, we are all very mindful of how they will impact other formats and bend around to provide a workaround to have the cake and not spoil the rest of dinner, or shoot them down with good reason if they can't help but spoil dinner.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:15
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Technically monocolor, Nishoba Brawler was a 4/3 or 5/3 trample for 2, but if your deck was playing four+ colors you usually had better things to do.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:16
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Also worth remembering that 2G isn't the same as GGG, the first one probably caps at 3/4 or so, the more intensive one could probably go as high as 5/5 in the right format.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:25
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Are we all just conveniently ignoring sheoldred when talking about creatures that don't give immediate value when played. It's a 4 mana do nothing if you remove it when it comes it's just a complete back breaker when you don't.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:33
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The correct rate that all creatures should be measured against is a 6/6 trampler for 4GG
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Mar 22, 2024 18:33
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imweasel09 posted:Are we all just conveniently ignoring sheoldred when talking about creatures that don't give immediate value when played. It's a 4 mana do nothing if you remove it when it comes it's just a complete back breaker when you don't. It's very simple. The opponent always has a doomblade in hand, but you never draw your doomblade.
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Mar 22, 2024 18:38
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