|
Hirsute posted:Yeah I get that but as he's hanging it up he acknowledges Fuji holding her nose by saying "oh yes there will be a terrible stench", like that's a normal part of the aging process. My question is - is it? No, he was probably taught wrong. As a joke.
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 12:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 18:13 |
|
|
grobbo posted:Sanada, at least, has been quite vocal on the press tour saying that he sees Toranaga as a heroic figure and an exemplar, so it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the character arc plays out. given that the historical version of him actually brought peace and stability to japan for two centuries does make him an exemplary figure.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 12:49
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:I think your take is correct if you take a look at it from 10,000 feet, but for most viewers Toranaga is definitely being perceived as "the good guy"
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 12:52
|
|
|
Toranaga as a sympathetic character is becoming more and more unbelievable. And I even got caught in it. But when you look at everything he has done leading up to where we are now, it looks kinda bad, doesn't it? He's done everything from letting a father kill himself and his infant child (he was already rebelling, just say no and go about your day) and then forcing the mother of that child to be a consort to Anjin, to imprisoning the Queen and opening rebellion in all of Japan. The showrunners are doing a great job of making us like Toranaga, but he's kind of a dick.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 12:59
|
|
|
McNally posted:I'm only half-remembering the book, but in James Clavell's Japan someone of Toranaga's position and stature almost certainly would have been carrying masterpiece heirloom swords. "This legendary swordsmith only made three swords, and I have one" sort of thing. Also in the book, Toranaga was actually angry about losing them to the point that Blackthorne, despite his limited Japanese, clearly understood that Toranaga was expressing "goddamnit I've lost my swords gently caress" All I saw in this series and recalling the 80s one (haven't read the book) is that it was this European who immediately volunteered a set of swords (a status symbol) to Toranaga and that was amusing and bemusing, perhaps, to Toranaga. I don't think his laughter had anything to do with the swords in particular but who was giving swords to whom? [edit: Also this mf just saved my life] I dunno, I just love this series. I love especially how they expand the scope beyond Blackthorne compared to the 80s miniseries. Grimnarsson fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Mar 22, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 13:15
|
|
|
If I remember, the sword thing is played as if of course Toranaga will get some other super-cool swords, but only in a few days at best. So Blackthorne thinks quick, and genuinely, to give Toranaga his swords in the meantime. And Toranaga recognizes the total bro-move appropriately.Grimnarsson posted:[edit: Also this mf just saved my life] That look when he sees who smacked his back and revived him: "How about that, the motherfucking Anjin ... again." Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Mar 22, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 13:54
|
|
|
I took it as a mix of: 1. Swords! Better than no swords, which is a kind of bad omen with a battle coming sometime soon 2. lol it’s the gaijin, of all people, giving me the swords? 3. Aren’t they those sketchy swords that got lost in a bad gamble, that’s kind of funny in an absurd way especially since Anjin-San probably has no idea how super valuable the ones I lost are. 4. OTOH I guess they’re the swords someone won in a gamble, I am also gambling, plus it’s right after I lost mine, so I’ve decided it’s a good omen now. I don’t think there’s any particular textual support for 4 but it seems in character for him.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 13:59
|
|
|
I mean i enjoy watching Toranaga do his thing, i don't know if i'd call him a good person but there's really not many good people in this series.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 14:00
|
|
|
He’s good at his job
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 14:02
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:I took it as a mix of: I like it. The gesture gives the swords meaning.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 14:04
|
|
|
Nice Tuckpointing! posted:I like it. The gesture gives the swords meaning. That's what the interview i listened too said, him having them redeems the swords. or something. Not so much spoiler, just actor head cannon
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 14:57
|
|
|
I've seen two new shows this year, Shogun and 3 Body Problem, and it's kind of weird that both have a scene about boiling people alive.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 15:22
|
|
|
I grew up with the OG series so Mifune will always be first and foremost in my mind as Toranaga, and he could be a totally ruthless and scary dick at times. Because of that, I'm finding Sanada's Toranaga comes off just too nice/approachable in comparison, like they've smoothed his edges somewhat. You could fairly argue that actually makes the subterfuge aspect more believable, that he's disguising the steel beneath the surface but eh, when Mifune glared at a mofo, you knew poo poo was about to get real and I don't really feel it with Sanada.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 15:34
|
|
|
Mifune is one of the greatest actors of all time regardless of any kind of parameters you can think up though. It would be like hmm I'm not sure about this Hulu streaming remake of A Streetcar Named Desire, I think I prefer Marlon Brando's performance
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 15:48
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:I took it as a mix of: I understood it that Toranaga without swords is like one of his class is as if we would be in public without pants. So he Blackthorne gave his modest "pants" to him. It was established already that someone of Blackthornes status as hatamoto should be wearing swords. "Wearing" might not be the right term.. But that's why he has them in the first place!
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 15:49
|
|
|
Also Blackthorne giving up the swords is more reasonable because him being caught out without his swords isn't such a big deal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 15:53
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:Also Blackthorne giving up the swords is more reasonable because him being caught out without his swords isn't such a big deal. Hoping his original wish to roll with a brace of pistols becomes a thing. Edit: Fuji’s totally going to cap some fool right? Who’s it gonna be? Buntaro? Yabu? Omi? INTJ Mastermind fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Mar 22, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 15:59
|
|
|
Better get some new guns, I don't think Fujiko is giving up hers
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 16:01
|
|
|
kiimo posted:Better get some new guns, I don't think Fujiko is giving up hers I thought he gave her one and kept one for himself.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 16:02
|
|
|
INTJ Mastermind posted:I thought he gave her one and kept one for himself. a brace is more than one though
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 16:05
|
|
|
ShowTime posted:Toranaga as a sympathetic character is becoming more and more unbelievable. And I even got caught in it. But when you look at everything he has done leading up to where we are now, it looks kinda bad, doesn't it? He's done everything from letting a father kill himself and his infant child (he was already rebelling, just say no and go about your day) and then forcing the mother of that child to be a consort to Anjin, to imprisoning the Queen and opening rebellion in all of Japan. The showrunners are doing a great job of making us like Toranaga, but he's kind of a dick. Toranaga was already deep behind enemy lines and without his army. Refusing to allow the seppuku would've marked himself and everyone loyal to his as criminals and allowed Ishido to freely kill all of them. The show has been heavy on the theme of words being what lends weight to actions. The samurai immediately jumped to seppuku for himself and his line, putting Toranaga in a no win situation. They also seemed to put heavy emphasis on no one but the regents stepping foot in that room. When the samurai took one step in with violent intent he was threatening the leaders of Japan. There was likely no walking back from that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 16:17
|
|
|
kiimo posted:a brace is more than one though Touche
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 17:44
|
|
|
Having a brace of pistols is important when it takes a minute or two to reload.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 17:58
|
|
|
Oh, question for the book readers. The Japanese thought cannons were super inaccurate. Did Blackthorne have better cannons than the Portuguese or were the Portuguese holding out on them?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 18:07
|
|
|
We talked about that a little while back, the thinking is the Portuguese gave them garbo cannons considering they're, well, planning on a hilarious endgame with japan
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 18:16
|
|
|
Focus on the cannons is a show thing. In the book, it was muskets. Japan had European style muskets for 50+ years, so they knew the efficacy but didn't know European tactics. That's what they wanted Blackthorne to teach. But there is a bit of truth to the shows depiction of cannons. When the Portuguese introduced muskets and cannons to Japan, they were all the rage, and Japanese blacksmiths took them apart and learned how to make them themselves. Within five years of introduction Japan had stopped buying muskets from the Portuegyese. They didn't iterate on the design, though, so the stuff Blackthorne is bringing has about 50 years advancement on what they're used to. The Japanese also would be more familiar with brass and bronze firearms that are more lightweight but warp relatively fast. Blackthorne's were naval cannons where the weight is less of a factor and would've been iron that can maintain its shape much better.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 18:18
|
|
|
Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Focus on the cannons is a show thing. In the book, it was muskets. Historically, they actually did iterate on the designs to a degree, though; developing larger caliber barrels and ammunition, creating additional devices to speed up reloading or prevent rain from rendering them unusable, and other such improvements; they never advanced from matchlocks to flintlocks, though, likely because they didn't catch on in Europe until the mid to late 1600's, well past the warring states period, and it just never occurred to them to adapt the flintlock strikers they already had as portable firestarters to their weapons. They also had comparable tactics to what was being used in Europe, with the kind of intense coordinated drilling pioneered by Maurice of Nassau being developed seemingly independently at about the same time, and triple-rank volley fire being used during the Korean Invasions, a good century and change before it was standard tactical doctrine for the Brits.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 19:02
|
|
|
yeah the book has blackthorne teaching something more like 1700s-style european linear warfare to the japanese who apparently only think of guns as very lovely hunting pieces? the naval cannon thing the show goes with is much, much better.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 19:27
|
|
|
kiimo posted:ah yes, the Tom Bombadil faction YouTube just recommended a review of Ep. 5 that ended up being literal yelling and exasperated sighs over how the show is ruining the best scenes in the book. He was especially miffed that Mariko didn't give a big speech about the role of women and men in Japan...as she's on the floor, bloody, post-domestic abuse. And that the lines she gives the next say to Blackthorne on the sea cliff were "childish" and she's having a "prolonged temper tantrum." He's so Bombadiled that he is getting negative enjoyment from the show. I probably should block the channel, but I really want to get his future opinion about how the anal beads are essential to the understanding the story and how dare Ep. 6 omit them. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Mar 22, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 19:33
|
|
|
don't forget the cock rings!
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 19:43
|
|
|
Just for fun I found the passage he wanted more faithfully reproduced.      Which works with the tone and style of the book, but it would have been a cheap anime or soap opera to jam this into that moment in the show. Also, I thought Mariko's "I give him nothing, not even my hatred" in the cliff scene hit really well. Side note, when Buntaro says it was the sake, I thought Blackthorne said, "Sake!? That orange juice!?" Turns out it was "That's your excuse!?"
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 20:18
|
|
|
McNally posted:I'm only half-remembering the book, but in James Clavell's Japan someone of Toranaga's position and stature almost certainly would have been carrying masterpiece heirloom swords. "This legendary swordsmith only made three swords, and I have one" sort of thing. Also in the book, Toranaga was actually angry about losing them to the point that Blackthorne, despite his limited Japanese, clearly understood that Toranaga was expressing "goddamnit I've lost my swords gently caress" I've been trying to work out a joke based on Blackthorne's lovely Hanzo Steel mall swords and the fact that the actual Hattori Hanzo worked for Tokugawa but it feels like too big of a bridge to cross in a shitpost
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 20:20
|
|
|
Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Just for fun I found the passage he wanted more faithfully reproduced. Anyone bemoaning the loss of a "women should know their place" scene or speech probably has a whole flag store-s worth of red flags about their person.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 20:27
|
|
|
nine-gear crow posted:Anyone bemoaning the loss of a "women should know their place" scene or speech probably has a whole flag store-s worth of red flags about their person. Yuuuup. That and how he thinks Blackthorne has been made "a joke" to please modern audiences and I'm starting to suspect he's upset because the show isn't celebrating the white-savior trope. Edit; also, my earlier comment about how the scene works in the book was not really an endorsement of the contents. It's just the whole book is in that style and after a while you just let it be. Honestly, this pruning of Clavell's Orientalist machismo fantasy is one of my favorite things about the show. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Mar 22, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 20:55
|
|
|
There's a whole thing where Japan is idealized as this patriarchal trad country untouched by wokeness, so I can ses how downplaying Clavell's sillier aspects would piss off youtube freaks and such.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 22:28
|
|
|
YaketySass posted:There's a whole thing where Japan is idealized as this patriarchal trad country untouched by wokeness, so I can ses how downplaying Clavell's sillier aspects would piss off youtube freaks and such. i thought oriental fembois like BTS were part of the woke problem!!!
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2024 22:59
|
|
|
grobbo posted:Sanada, at least, has been quite vocal on the press tour saying that he sees Toranaga as a heroic figure and an exemplar, so it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the character arc plays out. Tokugawa is kind of like an Augustus figure in that yes, he killed a large number of people and mercilessly exterminated his political rivals, but his hegemony ended a period of civil war and inaugurated an era of peace and prosperity. PostNouveau posted:The Japanese thought cannons were super inaccurate. Did Blackthorne have better cannons than the Portuguese or were the Portuguese holding out on them? I can't speak to what cannons exactly the Portuguese were selling in Japan in the 1550s but in general it's historically accurate that artillery technology advanced rapidly in the second half of the 16th century. In 1500 cannons were custom-made war machines that could weigh more than 10 tons and were primarily for throwing stone balls at castles. By 1600 accurate field guns were a reality, although they're still giants compared to 18th century field guns from more familiar movies. The show cannons are notably huge compared to American Revolutionary War cannons. Cannons got a lot cheaper, smaller, standardized, and easier to mass-produce. It's not surprising that cannons made in 1595 are way better than cannons made in 1550. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Mar 23, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2024 00:01
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Tokugawa is kind of like an Augustus figure in that yes, he killed a large number of people and mercilessly exterminated his political rivals, but his hegemony ended a period of civil war and inaugurated an era of peace and prosperity. Also it's recorded that the figure Blackthorne is based on taught ballistics 101 to Japan so they definitely had the perception that cannons couldn't be made to shoot straight before then
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2024 01:06
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Tokugawa is kind of like an Augustus figure in that yes, he killed a large number of people and mercilessly exterminated his political rivals, but his hegemony ended a period of civil war and inaugurated an era of peace and prosperity. I'm not really a cannon guy, but were the English navy using iron or bronze in 1600? i was under the impression they were still using bronze.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2024 02:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 18:13 |
|
|
The ship is Dutch though?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2024 03:49
|
|