386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

I’m not an expert on either, but surely Russia and China are two dramatically different countries, and perhaps a country ravaged by colonialism and a century of atrocity and humiliation at the hands of the West and asserting itself as an alternative to the Western system might have partially different motives for opposing a resolution from genocidal Western colonial powers than Putin does?

386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

I’m not an expert on either, but surely Russia and China are two dramatically different countries, and perhaps a country ravaged by colonialism and a century of atrocity and humiliation at the hands of the West and asserting itself as an alternative to the Western system might have partially different motives for opposing a resolution from genocidal Western colonial powers than Putin does?

socialsecurity posted:

China has committed many of its own colonialisms and atrocities and genocides, including ones on Muslims so I'm not sure why you are trying to paint that as a western only thing.

386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

And yet, who painted that as a Western-only thing? The West did tons of horrific poo poo in China, no qualifications or whatabouts necessary, and the anti-colonial Marxist ideology of China's ruling elite is the lens through which they view geopolitics. You don't have to agree with it to understand that their worldview and strategy is grounded in a materialist perspective of the history of Western imperialism in a way that Putin definitely doesn't share. It's lazy to lump the motivations of the two countries together just because they're adversaries of the US order (as a previous poster suggested, not necessarily you).

quote:

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, announced the seizure of 10 square kilometers (3.8 square miles) of Palestinian territory in the West Bank on Friday. The move marks the single largest land seizure by the Israeli government since the 1993 Oslo accords, according to Peace Now, a settlement watchdog group.

“While there are those in Israel and the world who seek to undermine our right over the Judea and Samaria area and the country in general,” Smotrich said Friday, referring to the territory by its biblical name, “we are promoting settlement through hard work and in a strategic manner all over the country.”

Rust Martialis posted:

And now Bibi announces land seizures in the West Bank while Blinken is *in* Israel.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/03/joe-biden-israel-gaza-war-netanyahu-rafah-palestinians/ posted:

Among other weapons, the United States has sent tens of thousands of artillery shells and thousands of unguided “dumb” bombs. It is not known just how many of them have been used in Gaza, but Israelis have not hidden the fact that these weapons are essential to the war effort. “All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the US,” retired Israeli Maj. General Itzhak Brik said in November. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability.”

The president has broad authority to restrict weapons transfers under US law. Brian Finucane, a senior adviser at the International Crisis Group, worked for nearly a decade as a State Department attorney. He said the process by which Biden could stop more weapons from being sent to Israel is simple. “He tells the State Department, ‘Nope. Pause these transfers. We’re not doing this anymore.'”

Esran posted:

A while back, someone was speculating that Israel doesn't even need the munitions the US sends them, and wondering whether American bombs had even been dropped in Gaza, and so the US might not be able to stop the genocide anyway:

I think this puts that mystery to rest, in case anyone was still in doubt: The US could end this genocide if they wanted. The genocide continues because the US wants it to, and more specifically, because Biden can't be bothered to make a phone call.

Kalit posted:

Also, the genocide has been ongoing for nearly the entire existence of Israel, which is well before Biden was a politician. No need to pretend like Biden is the sole reason it hasn’t stopped

Rappaport posted:

In the land of Dungeons and Debates, the usage of the term "sole" has consequences, does it not? What is it that you are arguing here?

Esran posted:

The genocide continues because the US wants it to, and more specifically, because Biden can't be bothered to make a phone call.

Rust Martialis posted:

And now Bibi announces land seizures in the West Bank while Blinken is *in* Israel.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/

Kalit posted:

This was already covered and is old news. That quote is from November.

Also, the genocide has been ongoing for nearly the entire existence of Israel, which is well before Biden was a politician. No need to pretend like Biden is the sole reason it hasn’t stopped

Kalit posted:

Did you not read the post I was responding to? It’s literally what was being claimed….

socialsecurity posted:

China has committed many of its own colonialisms and atrocities and genocides, including ones on Muslims so I'm not sure why you are trying to paint that as a western only thing.

Rappaport posted:

In this analysis, is it the materialist perspective of silicon manufacture that drives China's desires on Taiwan?

Yawgmoft posted:

Biden and Schumer just gave big overtures to the two state solution, and this is a huge slap in the face to just expressed US wishes.

Kalit posted:

Did you not read the post I was responding to? It’s literally what was being claimed….

386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

FFS how is this relevant to anything? If you have a point, would you just come out and say it? Things like this make this thread suck

386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

You don't have to agree with it to understand that their worldview and strategy is grounded in a materialist perspective of the history of Western imperialism in a way that Putin definitely doesn't share.

Kalit posted:

Did you not read the post I was responding to? It’s literally what was being claimed….

Esran posted:

Your tone reads like you disagree with me, but the statements you're making support what I'm saying, so that's a bit weird.

To me it reads like you're saying that it is old news that Israel depends on the US for the equipment and munitions they're using to perform the genocide, and so we should have known better than to question whether the US can end the genocide, or whether US weapons are involved in performing the genocide. That's true, but I wanted to mention it because people were asking these questions in this thread not too long ago, so clearly some of us didn't get the message. Old news is relevant if people don't remember it or didn't catch it the first time.

And your other point seems to be that the genocide predates the Biden administration. That has nothing to do with whether Biden could end the genocide now, all that says is that support for genocide was endemic in the US political establishment even before Biden was president. I never claimed Biden was solely responsible for the genocide happening in the first place, I'm claiming that the genocide continues today because Biden doesn't want to give the order to stop weapons transfers to Israel, which he could do unilaterally.

I agree with both of the things you seem to be saying by the way. This isn't just Biden's fault, the US political system as a whole is culpable. But Biden is currently the president and has the power to stop the genocide, so talking about how previous presidents were also monsters and also held that power didn't seem relevant to me. It's a good point that we should remember that though.

Fidelitious posted:

You just quoted something that does not say what you claim it says, impressive for one sentence.

That quote says the "genocide continues" because of Biden.
It makes no claim about how it started, how long it has been going, or who else could have stopped it before now. It also doesn't say that Biden is the "sole" reason.

I don't even fully agree with that claim but your twisting of that sentence to form something you can argue against is ridiculous.

The Sean posted:

You: "sole reason"
Rappaport: "sole reason? What? This phrase has specific meaning"
You: "here's my proof: [nothing that says sole reason]"

Kalit posted:

What’a the difference between saying “Biden can single handedly stop this” (which is what was insinuated) and “Biden can solely stop this”? If you think there’s a difference, I will amend my post to say single handedly

Kalit posted:

Esran posted:

Unless you can justify your belief that Brik is wrong, I don't see why we should care about your doubts? I would trust him to know better than you, and I think so would most people. Is it that you think he's being misquoted? Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

Your concern seems to be that without US support, Israel would have to stop the current "hot war" and go back to the slower genocide they were doing before, and that this means they would still be doing a genocide. I'm happy to cede ground to this. If that's your position, then fine, I'll amend my claim to instead say "Biden can stop the current fast version of the genocide, and is choosing not to". Whether Biden could unilaterally end the entire genocidal project, including the occupation and blockades is a different matter, and wasn't really what I was getting at.

On the "sole reason" thing, you are missing the point. The claim was "Biden could stop the genocide". Stating that the genocide is older than Biden's presidency isn't any kind of counterargument, it's a complete non-sequitor.

Edit:

Also free Stringent already.

Rappaport posted:

In the context of Vladimir Putin's genocidal war on Ukraine, which has been interpreted to various degrees between "dumb" and "listening to supposed pan-Slavic influencers (derogatory but about the influencer part)", it remains opaque to me how China's materialist perspective would be a contrast to the actions of Putin or Israel in their war schemes. Which is why I asked for clarification on this point, is there some major material scheme of China's part on Taiwan that eludes me? I am, as a dim westerner, only aware of Taiwan's heavy role in the semiconductor market.

386-SX 25Mhz VGA posted:

FFS how is this relevant to anything? If you have a point, would you just come out and say it? Things like this make this thread suck

www.taiwannews.com.tw - Tue, 19 Mar 2024 posted:

## Foreign ministry says funds for medical teams, not military

Haim Bibas, the head of the Federation of Local Authorities Israel, shakes hands with Ya-ping Lee (李雅萍), the head of Taiwan's mission in Israel, i...

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — Taiwan’s representative office in Tel Aviv has donated NT$15.9 million (US$500,000) to local government agencies in Israel.

The Federation of Local Authorities in Israel posted a message of thanks to the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office in Tel Aviv for the donation on Thursday (March 14). Taiwan’s representative office replied with a post that said it was glad a partnership had begun, and that it looked forward to more exchanges soon.

Taiwan’s foreign ministry told Taiwan News the donation would be used to sponsor medical emergency response patrol teams in 12 Israeli cities. The ministry said the teams will be staffed by volunteers, and organized by the federation to whom the money was given.

The ministry said the items donated include communications and medical supplies, and that the funds will not be used to support military operations in Gaza. The foreign ministry also said it hopes Israel and Palestinian authorities will continue to pursue a ceasefire in line with previous efforts.

The donation comes as Israel faces the weakening of typically rock-solid support from the U.S. over the ongoing military campaign in Gaza that has left more than 30,000 Palestinians dead. Children are estimated to account for more than 40% of those killed.

Multiple protests have occurred in Taiwan calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, and accusing the Israeli government of committing genocide against Palestinians. Despite the protests, Taiwan's support for Israel has remained strong since the surprise Hamas attack that killed more than 1,100 Israelis and foreign nationals last October.

Israel has denied genocidal intent against Palestinians in the United Nations International Court of Justice (ICJ). In defense of genocide claims brought by South Africa, Israel argued that the war in Gaza is one of defense, and is against the Palestinian military group Hamas, not the Palestinian people.

When ruling on the case in late January, the ICJ called on Israel and its military “to take all measures within its power” to prevent acts of genocide. It stopped short of calling for the ceasefire that was requested by South Africa's legal team.

Kalit posted:

There we go. Yes, Biden should stop selling weapons to Israel and could prevent additional casualties on the ongoing genocide. I, of course, completely agree with that. But that won’t even come close to stopping the genocide.

As far as Brik’s statement, I don’t really feel like retreading this ground, as that was just a side note. If you’re genuinely curious about my stance, you can find it in my post history ITT.

And one last clarifying comment, I had brought up decades of genocide to help provide evidence that Israel can commit genocide just fine without Biden’s bombs.

Neurolimal posted:

https://twitter.com/prem_thakker/status/1771562821425275249

There is no real argument to be made against Palestinians bringing their grievances to the international community, beyond a slavish devotion to Israel, and a strong belief that they are both committing war crimes & that those war crimes are good. I won't be surprised if Biden signs it.

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

I’m glad the thread could be back to “what about China” while stringent is still banned and mods have refused to clarify why exactly he was even banned.

Kalit posted:

There we go. Yes, Biden should stop selling weapons to Israel and could prevent additional casualties on the ongoing genocide. I, of course, completely agree with that. But that won’t even come close to stopping the genocide.

As far as Brik’s statement, I don’t really feel like retreading this ground, as that was just a side note. If you’re genuinely curious about my stance, you can find it in my post history ITT.

And one last clarifying comment, I had brought up decades of genocide to help provide evidence that Israel can commit genocide just fine without Biden’s bombs.

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

I’m glad the thread could be back to “what about China” while stringent is still banned and mods have refused to clarify why exactly he was even banned.

SMEGMA_MAIL posted:

I’m glad the thread could be back to “what about China” while stringent is still banned and mods have refused to clarify why exactly he was even banned.

quote:

The Palestinian Jamila Al-Hassi, who was besieged in the vicinity of the Al-Shifa Complex, told Al Jazeera that the occupation forces forced 65 families to leave the vicinity of the complex, after burning the building in which they were holed up. Al-Hassi added that the besieged people have been appealing to the Red Cross for 6 days to provide water for children and the sick, or to intervene to evacuate them without any harm. Feasibility.

She continued, "The occupation forces killed and burned entire families, and also raped and killed women."

In turn, journalist Jihad Abu Shanab, in the vicinity of the Shifa complex, told Al Jazeera that dozens of families have been trapped without water or food for 6 days in homes and neighborhoods near the Shifa complex, and are being exposed to gunfire and violent air and artillery bombardment. They have been calling for several days for the Red Cross and international organizations to intervene to save them.

Abu Shanab indicated that some citizens who were able to leave told him that there were dozens of martyrs and injured in the streets, and that the occupation forces demolished 8 houses on top of their resident.

A child, one of the survivors of the executions carried out by the Israeli occupation forces after their release from the Shifa Medical Complex in Gaza City, said that all those who were with him were killed by occupation snipers, despite being told that they were safe, after the occupation forces arrested them for several hours.

skipmyseashells posted:

As a Muslim it’s so disgusting to see that being used as a ban reason while people can freely hasbara post and do real genocide denialism on Palestine, insanely islamaphobic act during Ramadan of all months too

Kalit posted:

Who has done genocide denialism about Palestine recently ITT? There's a couple posters who have done this in the past, of course. But I feel like there hasn't been any this month, at least that I've seen (unless I'm mis-remembering).

National Parks posted:

One could argue that stating "Israel is definately commiting a genocide" while at the same time arguing tooth and nail that all actors involved in perpetuating the genocide are not responsible or accountable is a form of genocide denialism.

Kalit posted:

Who has stated that Israel is not responsible for a genocide that they are committing

Unless by "all actors", you mean "all other actors". Which, to me, doesn't make sense on how that's genocide denialism. Since it's acknowledging that the primary actor, Israel, is committing a genocide.