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Independence posted:Laws and judgement's are for little people. Someone post the tweet of that guy saying something like "I'd like to see ol' Donald wriggle his way out of this one again!" "***Donald wriggles his way out***"
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Mar 25, 2024 19:38
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smackfu posted:It’s weird how numbers get normalized. If the judgement in the case had been $175M in the first place, no one would have said Trump won. I disagree. They did a good job of showing how much money Trump made from his crimes. If the judgement had been less it would’ve been pretty clear that the crime did pay.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:39
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Deteriorata posted:It's just a bond he has to post in order to appeal. It's not the final judgment. What's the problem? It's not just a bond he has to post in order to appeal. He can appeal without posting the bond. And the problem is Donald J Trump wriggling his way out of another jam. People are rightfully angry.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:39
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Fart Amplifier posted:The thing people are worried about is that in 10 days he'll have the money to post bond and then end up winning the election and never suffer a single consequence. Whether Trump pays a 9 figure civil judgement next week or not will not affect his ability to run or win an election in the slightest.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:40
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I’m trying really hard not to doom post but I’ll believe the hundred whatever million bond is a consequence when it is actually paid and not further stayed in 10 days. The bond is not intended to be a consequence. It's just something to ensure he has skin in the game. If he wins the appeal, he gets it all back; if he loses the appeal, it goes toward the judgment amount. Caros posted:It is for trump. Well, you're destined for disappointment then, because civil court cases aren't about destroying and humiliating someone in public so spectators can feel good about it. He clearly cares about having stuff to pass down to his kids, which is why Eric and Don Jr. both had enough involvement in his business to get fined a few million bucks each in this case.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:41
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Fart Amplifier posted:It's not just a bond he has to post in order to appeal. He can appeal without posting the bond. Please explain what it is if it's not a bond.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:41
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i once got a traffic ticket because the dmv was wrong. the paperwork was real and in the car and i showed it to the police officer who said "but our records show" and i got a ticket. i was all the way across the country on a vacation at the time. the officer set the trail date for two days away on the day i was set to fly home. would not listen to me. couldn't delay it, wouldn't stop it. it was a small enough town that i went to the courthouse to ask for an extension, just enough time to get home and get the papework together no. the lady refused to even come all the way out of the door. she was still wearing her napkin as a bib as she leaned partly out of a door to tell me she wouldn't look at my paperwork and wouldn't move the court date, "you were arrested, you have to be punished" were her words before she closed the door. it cost me $700 to find a lawyer on short notice who would walk into the courtroom, hand over the paperwork, and get the case dismissed.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:44
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Deteriorata posted:Please explain what it is if it's not a bond. It's pretty clear that I wasn't claim that it's "not a bond". I was saying he can appeal without posting the bond.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:45
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The source of frustration for me is the slap-in-the-face double standard on display. Trump gets his bond more than halved and gets ten extra days because he's a very special boy and needs to be given the extra nice treatment while people every day across the country are picked up on piddling bullshit charges then get locked away without one one-thousandth of one percent of the grace and deference given to the worlds largest fraudster and most obvious liar. Trump threatens the existence of civil society as we know it in the country right now with violent insurrection and in exchange he gets eternal second chances, extended deadlines, reductions, more extensions and chances for appeal. Someone who threatens a stop sign or what ever gets their rear end locked up at light goddamn speed, gets told to go gently caress themselves with a cactus if they don't have money, and has stuff like their home, their family, or their job taken away without anyone giving a poo poo or a second look.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:46
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Fart Amplifier posted:It's pretty clear that I wasn't claim that it's "not a bond". I was saying he can appeal without posting the bond. Show how he can do that.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:46
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He appeals without posting a bond. The NY AG starts enforcing the judgment while the appeal is pending. They take all his poo poo, sell it all off, and then hand him a huge novelty check when he wins the appeal. That's how it would work without a bond. Since that last part sounds like it kinda sucks, it seems reasonable to want to avoid doing that if possible.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Well, you're destined for disappointment then, because civil court cases aren't about destroying and humiliating someone in public so spectators can feel good about it. It doesn't seem to be about consequences either tbh
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Mar 25, 2024 19:49
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Deteriorata posted:Show how he can do that. The bond isn't a requirement for appeal. The bond just stops the court from seizing and selling his assets immediately to collect the cost of the judgement. If he doesn't post bond and wins his appeal, then he gets the money back from the sale of his assets.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:49
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Deteriorata posted:Show how he can do that. Any article discussing the case will explain it https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump...to%20do%20that. quote:Meanwhile, a New York appeals court on Monday agreed to hold off collection of Trump's $454 million US civil fraud judgment — if he puts up $175 million within 10 days. The bond is necessary for staying the collection, not for an appeal
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Mar 25, 2024 19:50
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Deteriorata posted:Show how he can do that. He just files the appeal. It's that simple.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:If he's unable to pay even the lowered bond that would be goddam hilarious I mean, that seems like a realistic possibility. The guy's whole empire is built on smoke and debt. I'd believe he doesn't even have close to that much in actual liquid assets.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:02
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mllaneza posted:He just files the appeal. It's that simple. Yes, but then the state seizes his assets while he's appealing. That was what I was trying to get FA to acknowledge. Not posting the bond would have rather severe consequences and wasn't exactly optional.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:02
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Velocity Raptor posted:The bond isn't a requirement for appeal. The bond just stops the court from seizing and selling his assets immediately to collect the cost of the judgement. It's worth noting that when selling off his real estate assets in a hurry like that, it's unlikely that they'd get full market price for said assets, which means he'd likely lose money even if he won the appeal and got repaid for the seizures. That's something the court would probably prefer to avoid. That said, the judge wasn't concerned enough about it to waive the bond entirely, like Trump's lawyers requested! Instead, she just reduced it to a level he should have the cash to pay for. InsertPotPun posted:i once got a traffic ticket because the dmv was wrong. the paperwork was real and in the car and i showed it to the police officer who said "but our records show" and i got a ticket. If Trump rolled up to the courthouse himself, knocked on someone's office door, and personally requested that the bond be waived, he wouldn't have gotten the time of day either. Yeah, you were forced to hire a lawyer before the court would give you the time of day. Trump had to hire a lawyer too, and it's costing him a lot more than $700.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:20
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Main Paineframe posted:
The entire point is that beyond a certain amount of wealth these things become trivial annoyances rather than something that can actually gently caress up your life.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:29
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Main Paineframe posted:If Trump rolled up to the courthouse himself, knocked on someone's office door, and personally requested that the bond be waived, he wouldn't have gotten the time of day either. In the situation InsertPotPun described, they were forced to spend $700 to correct a mistake that was the government's fault. I get that you're trying to say "that's just how the system will works" but it's still pretty hosed up, and a very reasonable thing to be pissed off about.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:31
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:The entire point is that beyond a certain amount of wealth these things become trivial annoyances rather than something that can actually gently caress up your life. Paying $464M is not a trivial annoyance to Trump and will seriously gently caress up his life.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:32
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"would"
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Mar 25, 2024 20:38
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Deteriorata posted:Yes, but then the state seizes his assets while he's appealing. If Trump org was an actual company and not an ongoing mafia front it would actually have the billions in assets it says it does with only reasonable amounts of debt and be trivially able to post surety for a bond. That Trump org is effectively dissolved by a judgement of 7 to 10% of its claimed value isn’t something the state should consider. Supersedeas bonds are common in the US, it’s not a burden unique to Trump so giving him special status over it is yet another example where he gets different rules for no apparent reason.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:39
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Murgos posted:If Trump org was an actual company and not an ongoing mafia front it would actually have the billions in assets it says it does with only reasonable amounts of debt and be trivially able to post surety for a bond. Exactly. There's no legal reason cited in the opinion for giving trump this waiver, because nobody else ever gets such a waiver, regardless of how annoying their conviction might be for them.
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Mar 25, 2024 20:54
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For real, though, when he fails to post the 175m ten days from now, how much lower do you think they'll go for the next waiver?
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Mar 25, 2024 21:05
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Just one more week and I’ll have most of the money, I promise.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:11
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uh excuse me, i have it on very good authority that the courts have to let trump win or he'll use that loss to win and we can't have that.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Exactly. There's no legal reason cited in the opinion for giving trump this waiver, because nobody else ever gets such a waiver, regardless of how annoying their conviction might be for them. Yeah, I don't buy any of the arguments saying this is a reasonable thing for the court to do because I didn't see anyone on that side explaining that they thought it was likely or reasonable for them to do it before it happened. Saying in hindsight it makes sense feels like you're just biasing off of the fact that it happened, so it must have been reasonable in some way
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Mar 25, 2024 21:18
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Maybe you haven't been paying attention but these extra 10 days are a huge boon for him for numerous reasons, and now he's able to legally fleece FAR more people ahead of the new "due" date (which will probably also somehow magically get postponed). The judgement hasn't been reduced.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:19
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For what it's worth people were suggesting this as a possibility. As mentioned, he's not off the hook for anything, its just the safe value of money they know they are likely to get as cash and that is least defensible on appeal.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:25
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Didnt his lawyers not too long ago say "nah, can we give you 100 million instead?" So now it's 175 million and they successfully negotiated the terms of his bond in conflict with the law as it's written. What's the point of the law being written as having to pony up 110% or whatever it is just to have some judge be like "nevermind this doesn't apply to you"
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Mar 25, 2024 21:31
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Main Paineframe posted:Then they'll take it out of his estate, even if it means taking from his kids' inheritance. Death is no escape from a civil judgment. Oh I'm sure he really cares about that
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Mar 25, 2024 21:36
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Lemming posted:Yeah, I don't buy any of the arguments saying this is a reasonable thing for the court to do because I didn't see anyone on that side explaining that they thought it was likely or reasonable for them to do it before it happened. Saying in hindsight it makes sense feels like you're just biasing off of the fact that it happened, so it must have been reasonable in some way News articles by various legal types said it was quite possible the appeals court would vary the bond conditions. In WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/03/23/trump-bond-deadline-new-york-fraud-case/ quote:But there are reasons for her to wait. Legal experts say Trump has a chance of getting some type of relief from the appeals court. If James begins moving on his assets before the court rules, she may have to backtrack afterward. She also may consider the optics of moving quickly. As Nikos Passas, a Northeastern University criminology professor, put it: “She doesn’t want to be accused of being overly aggressive and unfair.” As others have pointed out here, fire-sales of Trump assets would likely cause him irreparable harm even if he wins in appeal - he can't get them back. And it seems nobody would sell him an appeal bond either. So the court prefers not to inflict irreparable harm while appeals are pending, so it wasn't totally unexpected to see them lower the bond requirements. They left the judgement basically intact but stayed chunks of it to give him 10 days to get a still eye-watering $175M bond. And they left Judge Jones in place overseeing his businesses. Either he scrapes up the bond or not. And either he wins in appeals or not.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:36
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So does this mean anyone else who gets hit with bail can argue that they should only have to pay ~35% of the listed amount and get away with it? I know this doesn't mean that, but I like to live in a fantasy land where the laws are applied equally to everyone, and when the rich get to pay less than half of what the law says they should, then it applies to everyone else as well.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:36
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Shammypants posted:For what it's worth people were suggesting this as a possibility. As mentioned, he's not off the hook for anything, its just the safe value of money they know they are likely to get as cash and that is least defensible on appeal. There's a recurring pattern of legal analysts going "Trump is hosed, unless the judges abandon all prior precedent" and then the "unless " keeps happening anyway. This is one more data point in that trend line. The only real explanation I have is some combination of judicial cowardice and judicial corruption. There is no positive, innocent explanation.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:40
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We might be coming at this wrong. If he doesn't post in ten days then everyone will know that he's even more broke than that. It would be great content if it happens because he will be so loving mad he won't talk right Edit: ^^^^ it's the cowardice OP
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Mar 25, 2024 21:41
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Rust Martialis posted:News articles by various legal types said it was quite possible the appeals court would vary the bond conditions. Sure, but you'll notice they never cite actual precedent or law. They're just smart enough at this point to realize donny wriggles often manages to wriggle. That said, the statement "Donald Trump should not be able to wriggle out of thus, unless he manages to pull off a one in a million chance" usually is in fact true, it's just that the one in a million chance in question is "be a nillionaire former president with thousands of fanatic violent followers."
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Mar 25, 2024 21:43
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I keep getting conflicting information so I'm going to assume some spineless part of the system said "he has to pay 175 in ten days to get out of the original judgement" and then in ten days he'll still not pay and the court will reamend to say he can just say sorry and they're squaresies, then he won't say sorry and they'll amend it to say he can spit in the judges face instead
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Mar 25, 2024 21:48
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I think a significant part of the issue is also that people will listen to any lawyer who can get on TV and says what they want to hear. Unless it’s a lawyer who has practiced these kinds of cases, in this specific court (or even better in front of this judge) then their opinion isn’t worth much and you’re a mark for listening. I think a lot of this comes down to lawyer worship and lawyers being extremely unwilling to say “I dunno, not my area of law” especially when their area of law includes “getting YouTube views/invites to CNN panels”
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Mar 25, 2024 21:50
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Staluigi posted:I keep getting conflicting information so I'm going to assume some spineless part of the system said "he has to pay 175 in ten days to get out of the original judgement" and then in ten days he'll still not pay and the court will reamend to say he can just say sorry and they're squaresies, then he won't say sorry and they'll amend it to say he can spit in the judges face instead No, he has to pay/bond 175m to have his appeal move forward for the original (half billion) judgement
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Mar 25, 2024 21:51
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