|
DarkHorse posted:In WWII they were able to construct bridges across rivers that could handle tanks in half an hour. Granted those bridges weren't required to also allow shipping, and I doubt they're as wide as the bay span, and it was using equipment already prepared for that purpose, but stuff can be built fast. There's lots of tons of steel in a hazardous and unstable configuration with dangerous currents that need to be removed first, too. A few months would almost certainly require specific legislation to bypass the myriad of hiring, safety, environmental, labor, public comment, etc laws that didn't exist in the 40s. It would also probably rely on some real luck in supplies although I guess if cost is truly unlimited then you can basically seize anything you need.
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:28 |
|
|
A couple of years would be very fast for America, but there are a lot of other countries that can put infrastructure up like that real fast. Some of them are shoddy but there are ones that are done well and speedily too.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:15
|
|
|
the key bridge took about five years to build originally so that might be a good figure to ballpark a new one
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:15
|
|
|
I think it also will depend on whether they just have to replace the span that collapsed or the entire thing if the ends that are still standing were structurally damaged or not suitable to build back onto.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:16
|
|
|
lobster shirt posted:the key bridge took about five years to build originally so that might be a good figure to ballpark a new one I believe it. In December, one of RI's most important bridges, the Washington Bridge, was discovered to have structural damage that led to the immediate closure of the westbound lane of traffic. The bridge is 10 lanes and is the main thoroughfare between Providence and East Providence. The damage is bad enough and in a key structural support that the bridge will need to be demolished and rebuilt.  That rebuild is planned to take 2.5 years to complete and is only ~2000 ft across. Compare that to the SFK bridge, which, according to Google, is (was) 57546 feet. 5 years sounds optimistic to me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:26
|
|
|
Retro42 posted:I'm also curious what kind of timeline is there to clear the debris and reopen the harbor. Unless it's changed I'm fairly certain every major port (and all the docked ships) in the Baltimore area are locked behind that bridge debris until it's cleared. Per local news there's only two ships stuck at the port, and a lot of the auto manufacturers' docks are farther down the bay, and still accessible. Also from looking at maps it seems the main logistics hub is also south of the bridge (but not sure if it's accessible with the exclusion zone). It's still a big deal that the main port is inaccessible and I can't see them taking very long after SAR is completed to start clearing the channel. They likely already have vessels on the way that will be able to move the debris; one of those assets is already there, on the inside, for other reasons: quote:That list includes the Dale Pyatt, the largest crane dredge in the Western Hemisphere, which was used to help free the Ever Forward, a container ship that ran aground and was stuck in the bay for more than a month in 2022. The Dale Pyatt is owned by Cashman Dredging & Marine Contracting Company and is currently anchored in Curtis Bay, Doyle said. Velocity Raptor posted:That rebuild is planned to take 2.5 years to complete and is only ~2000 ft across. Compare that to the SFK bridge, which, according to Google, is (was) 57546 feet. 5 years sounds optimistic to me. That figure is inclusive of all the roads leading up to the bridge; the part over the water is about a mile, with the truss portion about 1/2 a mile and the center truss between the pilings was 1/4 mile. Even if you put the pilings on shore you're looking at a span just over a mile. Given projected increases in traffic for the area (especially trucks, with the sparrows point logistics hub expanding rapidly) I wouldn't be surprised if they tore everything down and replaced it with one that has the capacity for 6 or more lanes. 695 leading up to the bridge is 2 lanes in both directions but it expands out to 3 lanes not much farther west (after the curtis creek drawbridge, which I learned today is technically part of the key bridge complex). The extra capacity would also take some load off the tunnels which are a bottleneck that's about to get much worse. That logistics hub is the former site of the beth steel plant. I couldn't find anything definitive one way or the other with a lot of research, but I bet that plant contributed to building the original bridge. Not that you'd make the replacement a steel truss bridge, most likely cable-stayed, or if you wanted to put all the pilings on land you might need a suspension. Clearing and opening the channel is going to be the top priority though, and any replacement bridge is also going to need to be built around the channel being active, with a lot more shipping traffic than there was when the bridge was originally built.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:45
|
|
|
It is going to be impossible to even get an estimate of the time to get a new bridge up until they can inspect the damage to all the remaining parts that didn't fall down. There is a major difference between just having to replace the main span and having severe structural damage to all the supports leading up to where it was that need to be removed and have all new structures built.
|
|
#
?
Mar 26, 2024 23:46
|
|
|
Redredging the water chanel should be a relatively quick process Building a new bridge will take eons
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 00:14
|
|
|
Xerol posted:Per local news there's only two ships stuck at the port, and a lot of the auto manufacturers' docks are farther down the bay, and still accessible. Seagirt and Dundalk are a decently sized Ro-Ro terminal and container terminal. There is a coal terminal and several general purpose terminals that are also cut off. The place that is the logistics hub is Sparrows Point, those warehouse facilities would have used the container terminal that is now cut off.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 00:57
|
|
|
I saw a bunch of docks at sparrows point but wasn't sure if they were actually in use or being used by the hub.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:03
|
|
|
Xerol posted:I saw a bunch of docks at sparrows point but wasn't sure if they were actually in use or being used by the hub. Those are where the iron ore and other bulk commodities for the steel plant were discharged. They could also load coils / pipe / plates but most of that was by vessel gear. I used to do draft surveys at Sparrows Point for the ore discharges from Brazil. I also used to take meter readings on steel coils for export to the EU. The largest heated warehouse in the US used to be out there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:07
|
|
|
I don't know about you guys but speedrunning repairing/rebuilding the bridge sounds like a horrible loving thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:09
|
|
|
It’ll be years. The poster who talked about the Sunshine Skyway rebuild has the correct take.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:10
|
|
|
I've dabbled in bridge engineering and it's difficult. You have to make sure the cars all get over before it glows red and breaks and sometimes you have to make ramps or loops to really make it look cool.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:16
|
|
|
Push El Burrito posted:I've dabbled in bridge engineering and it's difficult. You have to make sure the cars all get over before it glows red and breaks and sometimes you have to make ramps or loops to really make it look cool.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:18
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:Make the bridge into a car rollercoaster We can not miss this opportunity to create the life-sized Hot Wheels tracks Baltimore deserves.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:31
|
|
|
Get Hot Wheels to sponsor the replacement and make the whole bridge look like their plastic orange track.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:49
|
|
|
DarkHorse posted:In WWII they were able to construct bridges across rivers that could handle tanks in half an hour. Granted those bridges weren't required to also allow shipping, and I doubt they're as wide as the bay span, and it was using equipment already prepared for that purpose, but stuff can be built fast. There's lots of tons of steel in a hazardous and unstable configuration with dangerous currents that need to be removed first, too. I'm pretty sure those WW2 tank bridges were only temporary structures deployed from vehicles and not actual bridges, only able to span very short crossings.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:50
|
|
|
mutata posted:Get Hot Wheels to sponsor the replacement and make the whole bridge look like their plastic orange track. Only if they put a totally badass jump in the middle
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:51
|
|
|
Kchama posted:I'm pretty sure those WW2 tank bridges were only temporary structures deployed from vehicles and not actual bridges, only able to span very short crossings. They were either that or pontoon bridges, which run along the surface and aren’t compatible with ship traffic
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:52
|
|
|
haveblue posted:Only if they put a totally badass jump in the middle Hot Wheels can surely afford 2 bridges with jump ramps that cross each other mid-air
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 01:54
|
|
|
Kchama posted:I'm pretty sure those WW2 tank bridges were only temporary structures deployed from vehicles and not actual bridges, only able to span very short crossings. They also weren't engineered to handle thousands of vehicles per day for decades, it's a very different engineering problem
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 02:07
|
|
|
This accident is like a perfect encapsulation of everything taught in first year engineering classes. I guarantee that video will be shown for the next fifty years in every ENG102 room directly after the Tacoma Narrows vid.Xerol posted:Given projected increases in traffic for the area (especially trucks, with the sparrows point logistics hub expanding rapidly) I wouldn't be surprised if they tore everything down and replaced it with one that has the capacity for 6 or more lanes. 695 leading up to the bridge is 2 lanes in both directions but it expands out to 3 lanes not much farther west (after the curtis creek drawbridge, which I learned today is technically part of the key bridge complex). The extra capacity would also take some load off the tunnels which are a bottleneck that's about to get much worse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 02:59
|
|
|
Velocity Raptor posted:I believe it. In December, one of RI's most important bridges, the Washington Bridge, was discovered to have structural damage that led to the immediate closure of the westbound lane of traffic. The bridge is 10 lanes and is the main thoroughfare between Providence and East Providence. The damage is bad enough and in a key structural support that the bridge will need to be demolished and rebuilt. That's over 10 miles, that really doesn't sound right. Maybe the on ramps and stuff but that body of water isn't 10 miles wide.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 03:10
|
|
|
cr0y posted:That's over 10 miles, that really doesn't sound right. Maybe the on ramps and stuff but that body of water isn't 10 miles wide. Key bridge was like a mile and a half long,
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 03:12
|
|
|
 Shamelessly stealing this from the GBS thread. I actually live in this district so I'm over the loving moon. I wanna temper some expectations that while it's pretty significant in the swing, but for standards, the Huntsville-Madison area that she represents is pretty middle to upper class and extremely progressive for the standards of the rest of the state. It's got the University of Alabama here, it's got the space and rocket center and NASA, the redstone arsenal and then just all residences otherwise. Still that is quite a swing, and in that key suburb demographic that everyone is chasing this election year.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 03:41
|
|
|
Zero_Grade posted:This accident is like a perfect encapsulation of everything taught in first year engineering classes. I guarantee that video will be shown for the next fifty years in every ENG102 room directly after the Tacoma Narrows vid. ??? This was an accident. A boat steered itself into a bridge. How is that remotely comparable to a bridge that was designed poorly?
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 03:49
|
|
|
Boris Galerkin posted:??? The bridge should have been engineered to jump out of the way.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 03:53
|
|
|
Boris Galerkin posted:??? Because you engineer to resist accidents too. You can learn a lot from this sort of incident, that you really don't want to learn. You might not be able to stop it from breaking or collapsing, but you could make it harder for a hit to knock it down, or just collapse less dangerously.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 03:54
|
|
|
Kchama posted:Because you engineer to resist accidents too. You can learn a lot from this sort of incident, that you really don't want to learn. You might not be able to stop it from breaking or collapsing, but you could make it harder for a hit to knock it down, or just collapse less dangerously. Engineering bridges to resist getting rammed by fully loaded container ships is not the obvious right answer here. Container ships are also way bigger now than when the bridge was built in the 70s. I'm not saying it couldn't or shouldn't have been done, but I don't agree it's first year engineering stuff.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 04:28
|
|
|
Nelson Mandingo posted:
after 2016 nothing is a sure thing, and the recent dem wins have been on low turnout, but i sure as hell would rather be the party winning upset contests in an election year than the one losing them
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 04:29
|
|
|
6 people still missing, and presumed dead, from the bridge accident. Everyone else has been accounted for. Nobody has been confirmed dead, but Coast Guard officials said the 6 people they haven't found (all bridge workers) have been gone long enough to assume they are dead and are calling off the search. quote:The Coast Guard ended its search late Tuesday for six construction workers who were on a bridge in Baltimore when it was rammed by a massive cargo ship and collapsed into the Patapsco River. Biden says his "expectation" is that the federal government will cover the entire cost rebuilding and assist Maryland. He called on congress to pass funding to do so. The NTSB is taking possession of the maintenance records and audio recordings from the ship and are studying whether the bridge's design contributed to the collapse or not. Boats bound for Baltimore are being diverted to other ports and they don't expect many issues with that, but the logistics of the trucks that transport the cargo from the ships could be chaotic. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/03/26/us/baltimore-bridge-collapse Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 04:32
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:Engineering bridges to resist getting rammed by fully loaded container ships is not the obvious right answer here. Container ships are also way bigger now than when the bridge was built in the 70s. I never said was the 'obvious right answer', just that learning to engineer structures to RESIST is pretty important. And no it's not first year engineering stuff but it's still something you'd show to get across what a disastrous collision looks like.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 04:57
|
|
|
Kchama posted:learning to engineer structures to RESIST is pretty important. I don't think it's really within the realm of physical possibility to resist something like this. Unless you can build the foundations more out of the way I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 05:20
|
|
|
Kchama posted:I never said was the 'obvious right answer', just that learning to engineer structures to RESIST is pretty important. you teach it in schools like a Kobayashi Maru
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 05:41
|
|
|
Bucky Fullminster posted:I don't think it's really within the realm of physical possibility to resist something like this. That doesn't mean you can't learn how to build a better building to resist impacts from it. That's why people study disasters, even ones that couldn't be prevented otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 05:43
|
|
|
Bucky Fullminster posted:I don't think it's really within the realm of physical possibility to resist something like this. “Resist” is a complex word and doesn’t necessarily mean “being able to withstand”, it could be some way to stop boats ever hitting a support structure somehow. Or loving magnets or some poo poo, suspension bridges were magic until some brilliant people invented them. It doesn’t really matter how “possible” it is to solve anyway. Handing students interesting but unsolved problems to look at is a really good teaching strategy and this is a particularly stark example for engineering. The best way to get someone (at least a little bit more) interested in math is to explain Goldbach’s conjecture to them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 05:43
|
|
|
The bridge already wasn't optimally designed since it's about 50 years old in the part that collapsed. There aren't going to be new discoveries from this because it was already outdated. Finding flaws in modern technology can actually be instructive. Or to use a topical analogy, watching The Beast burn down isn't going to revolutionize rollercoaster design. koolkal fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Mar 27, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 05:58
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:Make the bridge into a car rollercoaster Just forget about a bridge and put a big ramp on each side, with a sign telling drivers what speed range they need to be in to reach the other side without overshooting the landing ramp.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 05:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 09:28 |
|
|
imo declaring that this incident is going to be taught in entry-level physics classes to the same level of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge is dumb as hell. The basic forces involved are well known and the sheer momentum of a fully loaded container ship is not something that any kind of clever engineering is going to "resist" outside of already known methods (like "try and put some land in front of it" or simply "don't have a fully loaded cargo vessel crash into your bridge.") You may as well show a video of someone getting shot in the back of the head to first-year med students - there's not much in either case one can reasonably do to prevent the nigh-inevitable result. The reason why the Tacoma Narrows Bridge is often taught is because it's an example of what not to do, a cautionary tale of hubris and unexpected forces working against the original design. Those elements just don't exist in this case — and while I'm sure some good professors could use this tragedy as a way to create classroom discussion, there's countless examples in history of these kinds of events happening, and nothing really makes this particular collapse more special or interesting above those other incidents.
|
|
#
?
Mar 27, 2024 06:12
|
|
