loving hell, but also good username+post combo
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# ? Mar 26, 2024 15:28 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:35 |
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Tankakern posted:gentoo just got a profile upgrade They err on the side of caution because some defaults get changed in the new profile. But unless your CHOST has changed I'm fairly sure you can just let normal package updates slowly replace all the old packages. e: ffmpeg 6 being available makes portage complain every single time because some things depend on ffmpeg <5 still
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# ? Mar 26, 2024 15:34 |
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Athas posted:I am pretty sure it was originally named Phoenix. I remember installing it under that name when I was a teenager. Correct. It was Phoenix Technologies, who I know most from their PC BIOS firmware, who made Mozilla change the Phoenix name to something else. So Mozilla switched to the authentically original name "Firebird". lul
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# ? Mar 26, 2024 18:25 |
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Well Played Mauer posted:Thanks for subscribing to FIREFOX FACTS unsubscribe
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# ? Mar 26, 2024 19:45 |
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Last Chance posted:unsubscribe Thank you for updating your subscription preferences. Please allow up to 10 business days for us to completely remove you from our system. DID YOU KNOW Firefox refers to a mythical animal, le renard fuego, which terrorized communities on what is now the border between France and Spain. Le renard fuego was, according to folklore, a fox with nine tails that was responsible for bad dreams and kitchen grease fires.
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# ? Mar 26, 2024 23:35 |
unsubscribe firefox-facts
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 00:33 |
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:unsubscribe firefox-facts Thank you for updating your subscription preferences. Please allow up to 10 business days for us to completely remove you from our system. DID YOU KNOW Mozilla, developers of Firefox, maintain a shelter for abused foxes on their business campus in Lincoln, Nebraska. They only upgrade a full version number when a new fox pup is born. This is known as vulpine versioning and is commonly used in open source software projects.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 00:49 |
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to: yospos-all subject: re: re: re: unsubscribe please remove me from this mailing list too Well Played Mauer posted:Thank you for updating your subscription preferences. Please allow up to 10 business days for us to completely remove you from our system.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 07:04 |
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Thank you for this interaction! Because you have interacted with our products and/or services, you have been opted into our mailing lists due to this ongoing business relationship. As an added bonus, we have also opted you in to receiving special offers from our partners!
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 09:24 |
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You know what I want when looking at my bookmarked threads? A Reply All button.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 11:14 |
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Antigravitas posted:You know what I want when looking at my bookmarked threads? A Reply All button. https://github.com/talwrii/curlfire
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 11:17 |
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Joshua-Ashton posted:Revert "video: Prefer Wayland over X11 (take 2!)" a little while until wayland is there for gaming then
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 12:01 |
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or maybe use gamescope for everything
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 12:06 |
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it is a fun thread to read, with the many people coming out of the woodwork repeating the take "no no, we need to make things be broken for *signaling* reasons!" the core devs have enough sense to opt for having things work though. e: i would also be really entertained if gamescope became a general good option, as afaik it is a pretty radical hack. in general it'd have been fun if there'd been more linux dists/stacks taking the "we're grabbing whatever works" approach, as i suspect a massaged android graphics stack would have beaten wayland to relevance down that route. Cybernetic Vermin fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Mar 27, 2024 |
# ? Mar 27, 2024 12:42 |
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i've been gaming on wayland for over a year now and it works fine because games/proton still all run through xwayland anyway i also really like that wayland kwin throttles apps on inactive desktops, means that if i i have to do something while playing, it makes the machine go basically idle. but apparently this is bad?
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 12:58 |
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Truga posted:i've been gaming on wayland for over a year now and it works fine because games/proton still all run through xwayland anyway defaulting to xwayland to keep things working is indeed the point here. and, yeah, just blocking the rendering thread is indeed bad, primarily because it doesn't work for tons of poo poo (i.e. a lot of games just crashing or otherwise getting screwed up, since that's not how things behave anywhere else), but it is also kind of dumb design that compositors take on power saving policy, and implement it by entirely blocking a thread in an application at an undocumented point (indeed for vulkan it is documented that this *must* *not* happen). it is the schedulers job to decide about that stuff, and no scheduler has historically worked like "oh, you did x, but i don't think x is meaningful at this point, so you'll just never run again now, no matter what you intended to do after the nop of x".
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 13:16 |
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:defaulting to xwayland to keep things working is indeed the point here. that really does sound extremely wayland tho
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 13:36 |
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so what you're saying is, kwin should have full access to the scheduler instead? idk if that's a great idea, they can't even make games run right lol
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 13:41 |
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The compositor giving scheduling hints seems to me like a good idea actually. The compositor knows which applications are currently being shown or even active, and those should absolutely be given priority over other tasks.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 14:17 |
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is there a fork of librewolf that doesn't make it sound like i'm installing something for furries not that i really have anything against furries, the name just sounds... ehh
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:43 |
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Truga posted:so what you're saying is, kwin should have full access to the scheduler instead? the reasoning might not be the same but i think this is what microsoft ended up doing with aero. i remember testing longhorn (vista) on a not terribly old at the time pentium m laptop with a GMA 900, and after installing a new build aero suddenly wasn't supported. turned out that was because the GMA 900 doesn't have a scheduler but the GMA 950 does e: of course they reversed course a few years later and now you can have aero without any gpu at all but that solution is very very similar to LLVMpipe, so i guess i can't really complain. on that note they should try and shoot for what MS does with that (WARP10+) and have it render whatever the actual gpu can't Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Mar 27, 2024 |
# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:46 |
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i mean, i'd love it if window managers could just suspend or highly limit cpu cycles to apps that aren't on the desktop right now, but you know it'd be a massive nightmare for years after such a change because poo poo like pipewire also isn't on the desktop while being in the desktop session process tree seeing how gpu usage is like 80% of the load on your normal desktop pc, just preventing something from rendering as much was probably the easiest and fastest solution lol
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:55 |
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also, firefox is also furry as hell, people just got used to it lol
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:56 |
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Beeftweeter posted:the reasoning might not be the same but i think this is what microsoft ended up doing with aero. i remember testing longhorn (vista) on a not terribly old at the time pentium m laptop with a GMA 900, and after installing a new build aero suddenly wasn't supported. turned out that was because the GMA 900 doesn't have a scheduler but the GMA 950 does i think you're thinking of the introduction of the os gpu scheduler, which indeed happened with vista (wddm 1.0), before that as far as i know the gpu driver just did something unknowable (and usually real dumb) about multiple applications using it. windows *also* does scheduling based on which windows are active, has since 95 i think, but i think the advantages there are modest (done more for interactivity than for energy saving). more generally obviously pausing and then tombstoning background applications is indeed how you'd do anything new today, but you then need a proper infrastructure and api for application lifecycles (akin to ios or android), and you're not going to make existing programs play nice with that without great effort. waylands approach on that is a really crude middle ground which fails to make sense both as an application lifecycle thing and as a "classic desktop" thing. i expect it'll get fixed though, and indeed workarounds exist. it is annoying how long what i view as severe blockers take to work their way through though.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 16:09 |
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Truga posted:i mean, i'd love it if window managers could just suspend or highly limit cpu cycles to apps that aren't on the desktop right now, but you know it'd be a massive nightmare for years after such a change because poo poo like pipewire also isn't on the desktop while being in the desktop session process tree idk, i think something like an experimental fork might not be too bad. development could track the main branch but try out poo poo that could have a decent chance of extremely breaking poo poo. i mean, i might be wrong on this but the last couple of posts indicates they are basically already doing that by blocking rendering threads for occluded windows. suspending the cpu thread would just be a bonus, suspending the process and the rendering thread simultaneously would probably mean the suspended app would have no idea it was suspended e: lol i started writing one sentence and ended it with something completely different, i need caffeine e2: on second thought i don't think the window manager even necessarily needs to be able to do this? linux has had job control for, uh, ever, so long as it's your process (or you're privileged) Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Mar 27, 2024 |
# ? Mar 27, 2024 16:13 |
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:i think you're thinking of the introduction of the os gpu scheduler, which indeed happened with vista (wddm 1.0), you might be right, it has been *checks watch* 21 years?! when the gently caress did that happen Cybernetic Vermin posted:windows *also* does scheduling based on which windows are active, has since 95 i think, but i think the advantages there are modest (done more for interactivity than for energy saving). lol yeah. i wrote my previous post as you were writing yours, but it seems like we're on the same page
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 16:16 |
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Tankakern posted:a little while until wayland is there for gaming then nah, it's there now. the surface suspension problem is present when running via xwayland too, and the native backend gives a much better experience when using a scaled desktop or the nvidia drivers. switching user facing defaults, even temporarily, always runs the risk of "ok, it's 8 months later and the fix we've been waiting for is ready, but, whoops, switching now breaks existing applications, so we're stuck with this forever" Antigravitas posted:The compositor giving scheduling hints seems to me like a good idea actually. The compositor knows which applications are currently being shown or even active, and those should absolutely be given priority over other tasks. the frame callback really just means "you can submit another buffer now, if you want", which is fine for traditional windowed apps that are only redrawn occasionally. the problem is that it ends up being used for frame timing, but it isn't actually tied to when presentation happens, as it can be called at any time earlier or later in the frame, skip frames, or never be called at all depending on the whims of the compositor. the wayland frame callback mechanism is one of those things that probably sounded very nice and elegant 15 years ago when it was being designed, but wound up being a terrible idea in hindsight. it's fine to provide it for applications that want to draw like it's 1993 and they're WM_PAINT-ing, but let games, video players, and such use a modern fifo presentation system. the windowing system was already updated to tell applications when they are occluded or otherwise aren't visible so they can easily suspend themselves if they want, now they just need to stop forcing it on them.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 16:35 |
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The_Franz posted:they can easily suspend themselves if they want, now they just need to stop forcing it on them. e: like, games already release 30%+ unfinished, nobody's gonna code a frame limiter for when you alttab lmao
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 16:49 |
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Truga posted:i mean, i'd love it if window managers could just suspend or highly limit cpu cycles to apps that aren't on the desktop right now, but you know it'd be a massive nightmare for years after such a change because poo poo like pipewire also isn't on the desktop while being in the desktop session process tree Look at systemd-cgls. Odds are your system already scopes per-service and per-application, including putting session services into a background and session slice, having applications in their own slice and with scopes for each application. A lot of the heavy lifting is already done on a modern desktop.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 16:51 |
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so is job control just not an option here because of the way the process group is split into scopes, or for some other reason? sending something SIGSTOP should just, well, pause it until it gets SIGCONT... right?? or am i just babbling here
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:20 |
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Beeftweeter posted:so is job control just not an option here because of the way the process group is split into scopes, or for some other reason? sending something SIGSTOP should just pause it until it gets SIGCONT... right?? what if it’s a networked application or a music player or something else that requires background activity? what if someone or something else sends SIGCONT or SIGSTOP while it’s running? Should the compositor ignore previous state? And how would the user know enough to call SIGSTOP and SIGCONT on the application to get it to behave correctly again? I think a lot of applications would rather block than receive signals. And I think SIGSTOP and SIGCONT should probably be used judiciously rather than a routine action by a service.
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:26 |
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of course, the real joke is that all business applications will be written in javascript and execute in a chrome container so any changes to the rendering pipeline on the client will only need to be done in one place (plus a couple years for those changes to percolate) what about games, you say? Truga posted:games already release 30%+ unfinished, nobody's gonna code a frame limiter for when you alttab lmao
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:29 |
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sb hermit posted:what if it’s a networked application or a music player or something else that requires background activity? well i know signals can only be sent to process groups, control isn't that granular. but i suppose you could have background activity split into a different process altogether and have it keep its own queue of poo poo that needs to be sent to the "parent" process on SIGCONT which, yes, is stupid, but it would probably work
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:43 |
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but either way we were talking about occluded windows suspending their rendering threads while still having the process itself running. background tasks tend to not have any windows?
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:47 |
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Truga posted:that means that every app has to do power saving by itself, which is *never* happening lol games, no, but a lot of applications do. maybe not windows apps, since there's no easy way to do this (go look at the mess firefox and chrome have to do to try and figure out if they are occluded on windows) it becomes a problem when applications (games mostly) don't expect to just suddenly stop rendering or be throttled to 1hz and break down, time-out, etc… sdl's internal egl present function has a hacked-up mess to keep things running at around 20hz if the frame callback stops for this reason
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:55 |
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modern windows apps can definitely manage power saving, but i'm not sure how they do it. i imagine most of them do it manually since they might be running on (relatively) old windows but for example every time i try edge on windows it tells me to enable its "green mode" or whatever, and it is somewhat granular in what it does to achieve power savings. but since enabling that fully also has edge start with the computer as a background process, lol no thanks
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 18:06 |
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Beeftweeter posted:modern windows apps can definitely manage power saving, but i'm not sure how they do it. i imagine most of them do it manually since they might be running on (relatively) old windows firefox and chrome do this on windows by hooking into the windows of all other applications so they can build a grid of windows and figure out if their window is currently occluded by others https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ui/aura/native_window_occlusion_tracker_win.cc on mac and wayland the desktop does all of this for you, so you just listen for the occluded/suspended message and react accordingly
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 18:20 |
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ive never looked into it, but presumably uwp and winui have the full application lifecycle infrastructure for actually doing power saving in a principled way (all that worked fine in wp, and for all their failures microsoft will not usually throw that kind of thing out)
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 18:24 |
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who the hell comes up with these names? bing? edge? did ballmer even have a hand in the edge name?
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 18:46 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:35 |
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max my bing while I edge
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# ? Mar 27, 2024 18:47 |