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Jetrauben posted:It's not that her crimes are the worst, it's that she as a person is among the most lacking in positive interpersonal qualities. Personally I see a hatred of caste systems and an unwillingness to let the sins of the old world be reborn as positive, but then again I don't have reading comprehension of a child. You people see a mean woman and lose your minds ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 19:45
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goblin week posted:I'm not sure on defenders but I checked and there is definitely a contingent of people who have the hots for the guy. Which is wild, to me, but I also found a honest to god Vauthry defender Vauthry is at least (5.0 MSQ spoilers, tagging for safety) someone who also had no choice in his situation, since he got merged with a Lightwarden in utero and then grew up in an environment of being indulged in his every whim and told he's an incarnate god while also being stuck in a body-horror hell. I mean, he's still a total poo poo, but you can argue he's in the Zenos situation of being hosed from moment one and the inevitable product of his lovely circumstances.
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Mar 31, 2024 19:55
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Honestly, ending him was a kindness. My only regret was the world class case of indigestion and theatre kid angst it caused. ConanThe3rd fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 20:02
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Is Nero bad? Yes. Is Nero good? Yes. You can enjoy and like or even lust after (ex)villains. I give you permission. Signed, the Emet lover.
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Mar 31, 2024 20:42
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Personally I see a hatred of caste systems and an unwillingness to let the sins of the old world be reborn as positive, but then again I don't have reading comprehension of a child. There's a difference between "this person is the most evil person ever" and "this person is an rear end in a top hat." Misija may not be the worst person in the cast by a long shot! She is, however, one of the most personally venomous. She is a gigantic rear end in a top hat, repeatedly abusing the trust of not only the actual regressives in Bozja but her comrades who genuinely put trust and faith in her. (Hell, most of the regressives in the Bozjan plotline are basically an offscreen threat; none of our allies are explicitly among them. I don't recall any of the Gunnhildr's Blades types being called out as regressive figures, but it's been a while; her onscreen victims are mostly essentially decent people. And Mikoto. I mean, yeah, some of them are suspicious of her, but it turns out that they were totally right to be so.) It's not "mean woman," that sort of underwrites just how many of Misija's actions are driven by cruelty and petty spite. She's just also got a point that pre-conquest Bozja was a horribly unequal place, but all of our main allies already want to build a more just future, so she basically just makes things unnecessarily worse. Antivehicular posted:Vauthry is at least (5.0 MSQ spoilers, tagging for safety) someone who also had no choice in his situation, since he got merged with a Lightwarden in utero and then grew up in an environment of being indulged in his every whim and told he's an incarnate god while also being stuck in a body-horror hell. I mean, he's still a total poo poo, but you can argue he's in the Zenos situation of being hosed from moment one and the inevitable product of his lovely circumstances. Encyclopedia Eorzea vol 3 made me have a rather nastier view of Vaulthry, since it describes things like him beating a Minfilia to death after a bad dream where she killed him. Guy was spoiled and the product of unwholesome experiments, yeah, but we've seen multiple spoiled people in the setting who are either spoiled or experience horrible body horror stuff. Alphinaud is spoiled, it's actually kind of core to his generosity that he's a spoiled rich kid who's wanted for nothing and thus assumes comfort and plenty are everyone's due. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 20:58
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Jetrauben posted:It's not that her crimes are the worst, it's that she as a person is among the most lacking in positive interpersonal qualities. I mean like half the good guy cast are people who betrayed their nations and allies to do what they felt was right. They just betrayed to our side.
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Mar 31, 2024 21:05
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ImpAtom posted:I mean like half the good guy cast are people who betrayed their nations and allies to do what they felt was right. They just betrayed to our side. This is true! But I do think there's a difference between "defected to join up with the good guys and ultimately to save the innocent people of my former home" and "defected, mentally violated my beloved ancestor's spirit to convince her to become the weapon of a colonialist (and quasi-genocidal) conquest, and then go on a spree of using her to gleeful violating the minds and bodies of my former comrades into my obedient tools." A subtle one, perhaps, but a difference. It's probably worth noting that Misija was Matsuno's brainchild and Matsuno, as I understand it, was of the opinion that Fordola should have been executed in an exercise of building national unity? So she's pretty much "Fordola absent all the redeeming qualities and with all her negative ones dialed up" to make a point? Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 21:08
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Note Block posted:Is Nero bad? Yes. Is Nero good? Yes. Counterpoint: I would like to know less about which FF14 characters everyone lusts after when I've shown up to talk lore or just shitpost about bad roulettes or whatever. The ideal amount to know would be nothing, tbh
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Mar 31, 2024 21:11
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I don't really mind knowing what characters people are attracted to, that's kinda interesting, but I'd prefer no elaborate details (which we don't tend to get in this thread, phew).
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Mar 31, 2024 21:16
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Oh, also: it doesn't help that Misija's motivations are supposedly centered around a desire for egalitarianism but in practice she's entirely willing to employ the monarchical hereditary powers of her ancestor, and indeed seems to see it as her due - her motives are heavily shaped by bitterness about her ancestor being betrayed and slain. (Which is even more interesting given Bozja is explicitly not a hereditary monarchy; the queen was selected through theocratic means. Misija does not actually have a valid claim to Save the Queen or its powers. She is acting entitled to something she does not have the right to use.) Valid grievance, to be clear, and royalist and aristocratic sentiments are not strictly synonymous. Historically populism was often royalist in monarchical societies.. But not exactly a "pure egalitarianism" either by democratic standards. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 21:22
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People are more likely to hate an evil character if said character is a charmless rear end in a top hat. Zenos is proudly evil with a litany of evil deeds to his name but the fan reaction to him is different from, say, Teledji Adeledji, because Zenos has a charm to him and a big personality.
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Mar 31, 2024 21:47
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Antivehicular posted:Counterpoint: I would like to know less about which FF14 characters everyone lusts after when I've shown up to talk lore or just shitpost about bad roulettes or whatever. The ideal amount to know would be nothing, tbh Mods???? (oh wait)
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Mar 31, 2024 21:52
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Funky Valentine posted:People are more likely to hate an evil character if said character is a charmless rear end in a top hat. Zenos is proudly evil with a litany of evil deeds to his name but the fan reaction to him is different from, say, Teledji Adeledji, because Zenos has a charm to him and a big personality. I think his Theater Kid aspects also give him an air of unreality that distance him from real interpersonal evil we encounter on a daily base. Zenos is ultimately so melodramatic that he legit comes off more as your Murder Boyfriend to many than a creepy fascistic butcher.
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Mar 31, 2024 21:54
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How ironic, that misijas name, sounds like misogyny
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Mar 31, 2024 22:30
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Jetrauben posted:(Hell, most of the regressives in the Bozjan plotline are basically an offscreen threat; none of our allies are explicitly among them. I don't recall any of the Gunnhildr's Blades types being called out as regressive figures, but it's been a while; her onscreen victims are mostly essentially decent people. And Mikoto. "This mistreated person betrayed those who mistreated her, so clearly they were justified in their mistreatment of her," is certainly a hell of a take. 
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Mar 31, 2024 22:41
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Speaking of Bozja, people will say Zadnor 3 is the best XP 70-80 but I think that might be an error between theoretical optimum and actual play. Zadnor is about 10% more xp per fate/CE than the Southern Front, but it's almost entirely people idling in z3 running between the same 5 fates, which loop every 15 minutes and don't spawn any CEs. BSF in comparison is very busy in all three zones, the fates are closer together and the CEs are popping constantly. If you need mettle, though, Zadnor's the place to go hands down.
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Mar 31, 2024 22:47
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all of this said if we didn't have bozja we wouldn't have had Diablos armament and that's a loving sweet fight
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Mar 31, 2024 22:48
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It is a long and proud video game tradition that the worst crime an NPC in a narrative-based game can commit is not murder, or genocide, or betrayal, or primal summoning.... but being too much of a dick to the player.
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Mar 31, 2024 22:50
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FeatherFloat posted:It is a long and proud video game tradition that the worst crime an NPC in a narrative-based game can commit is not murder, or genocide, or betrayal, or primal summoning.... but being too much of a dick to the player. I've read some really unhinged takes that amount to "this person did not ask me for a favor politely enough, why am I not allowed to murder them and burn their village down"
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Mar 31, 2024 22:53
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Jetrauben posted:I think his Theater Kid aspects also give him an air of unreality that distance him from real interpersonal evil we encounter on a daily base. Zenos is ultimately so melodramatic that he legit comes off more as your Murder Boyfriend to many than a creepy fascistic butcher. I'm also a Zenos fan due to his necessity for the story. He prevented the 8th Umbral calamity. He destroyed the Garlean empire and set it on itself, what was better than one of the other Legates turning into into unified fascism round 2 before the Alliance could act. He was instrumental in freeing Zodiark during a time when people could destroy him. He was essential in defeating the Endsinger, who would have otherwise, given time, overcome Etheirys's aether with the song of oblivion. Not sure how to describe the character archetype, but his single minded antagonistic approach to everything, and the specific growth he shows, was necessary for the arc's positive resolution for multiple major events.
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Mar 31, 2024 22:53
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https://twitter.com/IncorrectFFQTS/status/1774559613376966806
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Mar 31, 2024 23:43
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Countblanc posted:i legit dont remember, did Valens actually have like, a (badly-reasoned) moral stance or goal? wasn't his entire purpose in life just career advancement? the only thing I remember about Valens is that he was a weirdo and the milk meme. i feel like the Garlean Defenders would go towards someone with actual philosophies, barring the people just trolling. Career advancement, preferably at the expense of Gaius. Like, everything he did, every policy he implemented, was meant to be a mockery of something Gaius also did as a leader. He wanted Gaius destroyed, professionally and personally.
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Mar 31, 2024 23:44
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W.T. Fits posted:"This mistreated person betrayed those who mistreated her, so clearly they were justified in their mistreatment of her," is certainly a hell of a take. She doesn't betray those who mistreated her, she betrayed people who were more or less on her side whom she saw as puppets of those who did. Basaljien and co are the progressive wing of the Bozjan resistance! Mikoto is totally on her side and Misija abuses her trust, kidnaps her, and parasitizes her Echo! The only thing we see from any of Basaljien's people is suspicion of her which, again, turns out to be entirely correct since she was on Gabranth's side long before they called her out. Gabranth's legion, meanwhile, are described as almost explicitly genocidal, seeking to butcher or displace the Bozjan population so they can settle in the ashes of a place they have no direct or indirect connection to and build a new empire. The regressives are often mentioned in Bozja, but there aren't actually any characters from their camp who are named and significant figures. They're a "take our word for it, they're a totally serious threat!" but the only person who even directly interacts with Old Bozja's leadership traditions is ... Misija herself, taking Save the Queen and then gaslighting the original Queen Gunnhildr into her tool of revenge. Many of the Bozjan resistance are former Imperials who benefitted from the changes to Bozjan society and seek a more just future Bozja, Misija's hardly unique. And they're the people she backstabs. We see far more monstrous mistreatment of innocents from Gabranth's legion than we do from Bozja's personnel, even though war crimes (for a given value thereof, given it's not a formally codified term in Etheirys) are being committed by both sides - including you, targeting medics. It's one of the weaknesses of the story, that inability to show much of the home front reactionary camp that supposedly motivates so much of Misija's actions, although it's logical because being revanchists they're probably ensuring the other resistance factions are doing most of the dying. Orcs and Ostriches posted:I'm also a Zenos fan due to his necessity for the story. Oh he's great and I agree with you, I just think it's part of what makes him more palatable to many than the more "mundane" villainy in the game. the_steve posted:Career advancement, preferably at the expense of Gaius. Like, everything he did, every policy he implemented, was meant to be a mockery of something Gaius also did as a leader. Yeah Valens is just evil. If Gaius and Jullus represent the potential best of the Garlean character exploited for the purposes of imperialism, Valens is the toxic end result of imperialism and authoritarianism, a cruel and self-centered careerist who doesn't even pay lip service to their ideology. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Mar 31, 2024 |
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Mar 31, 2024 23:46
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Jetrauben posted:It's probably worth noting that Misija was Matsuno's brainchild and Matsuno, as I understand it, was of the opinion that Fordola should have been executed in an exercise of building national unity? So she's pretty much "Fordola absent all the redeeming qualities and with all her negative ones dialed up" to make a point? Got a source?
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Apr 1, 2024 00:09
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Ibblebibble posted:Got a source? It's secondhand, but it was this Reddit post? https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/px9kxn/new_famitsu_interview_between_matsuno_and_yoship/ quote:It felt like Yoshida and Matsuno kinda wanted for this content to be Matsuno's own Stormblood. They were going over how Matsuno wanted Fordola executed back then if Raubahn was to take on the future of Ala Mhigo. Yoshida talked about how Balsaljen was the kind of character only Matsuno would write, someone with a lot of resentment against the empire but puts them aside by seeking hope finding an easier and faster way to end the war (namely the WoL). Lyon and Balsaljen were Yoshida's two favorite characters. Yoshida said the content made justice to the parts of Stormblood they couldn't at the time. It was also Yoshida that wanted to have two stories (this and Werlyt) that focuses on different factions of the empire. Although amusingly: quote:Matsuno did not know there was a cure for tempering happening in the story, so he wanted to use this new development to cure the Blades tempered by Misija. However, the battle content designer told him that the blades will be transformed in Delubrum with no way of turning back to human and save them, surprising Matsuno. He decided that he should at least save one of the tempered Blades, which ended up being Lovro.
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Apr 1, 2024 00:11
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Bruceski posted:Speaking of Bozja, people will say Zadnor 3 is the best XP 70-80 but I think that might be an error between theoretical optimum and actual play. Zadnor is about 10% more xp per fate/CE than the Southern Front, but it's almost entirely people idling in z3 running between the same 5 fates, which loop every 15 minutes and don't spawn any CEs. BSF in comparison is very busy in all three zones, the fates are closer together and the CEs are popping constantly. I don't enjoy CEs as a way to get EXP, while I'm dying in them I could be doing other battles. It's like twice the reward for way more than twice the effort in my imo
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Apr 1, 2024 00:12
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Jetrauben posted:It's secondhand, but it was this Reddit post? https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/px9kxn/new_famitsu_interview_between_matsuno_and_yoship/ YoshiP winning again with the Lyon love
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Apr 1, 2024 00:14
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I'm also a Zenos fan due to his necessity for the story. Final Fantasy as a series loves to portray mirrored protagonist/antagonist duos working to do something in the narrative from the paths of light vs dark. FF4 and FF7(Sephiroth vs Shinra) line up for it neatly, you could say it's lightly used in FF6 and so on. I'm sure if we went to anime archetypes we could pluck the right term but Zenos is whatever they'd call the insanely obsessed rival archetype and it's only some introspection, Alisae's cutting words and literally the apocalypse that convinces him to be practical to get what he wants, even if it helps others and brings meaning to his life. If nothing else villains are great for exploring avenues of the setting and themes that are only possible if somebody is crazy and malicious, like the whole soul-swap duty in Garlemald.
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Apr 1, 2024 00:31
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In conclusion Matsuno should not have been writing for FFXIV.
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Apr 1, 2024 00:31
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Misija Did Nothing Wrong
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Apr 1, 2024 00:34
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FeatherFloat posted:It is a long and proud video game tradition that the worst crime an NPC in a narrative-based game can commit is not murder, or genocide, or betrayal, or primal summoning.... but being too much of a dick to the player. The worst sin a character can commit is being boring. I can forgive any evil if they’re entertaining enough(see: Emet-Selch, Zenos, Gaius, Athena, Lahabrea, even Valens to some extent just because he’s so devoted to being over the top hateable), but if your plotline is boring? If your story is a slog? That I can’t forgive. That’s why the worst villains in the game are the collective cast of the Ivalice quests.
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Apr 1, 2024 00:42
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Misija is just Ysayle but for a bad cause instead of a good cause
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Apr 1, 2024 01:36
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https://twitter.com/fisherfruity/status/1774587246739337510 See, lore is useful! It turns out the Sil'dih Subterrane was hinting towards a fish that's not in the log. I didn't really believe it either when we were piecing it together, but the proof is right there.
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Apr 1, 2024 01:37
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it's still march 31 for hours
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Apr 1, 2024 01:41
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flatluigi posted:it's still march 31 for hours Hey, time zones exist. But do you think the fish care about what day it is!? The only fish that has a calendar is Cinder Surprise, and they use it maliciously. I think he specifically went early so that the joke can have as much tail as possible; part of the joke is that it's in the fishing tracker.
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Apr 1, 2024 01:48
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they wrote the time condition as "O:10-O:15" (those are the letter O, not 0s) in their youtube description, that's the only part that offends me
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Apr 1, 2024 01:49
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drat, thought there was some ffxiv news, instead it’s bloodlust
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Apr 1, 2024 01:49
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Martman posted:they wrote the time condition as "O:10-O:15" (those are the letter O, not 0s) in their youtube description, that's the only part that offends me I'm assuming that's so it won't link to the timestamp in the video.
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Apr 1, 2024 01:51
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Kazy posted:I'm assuming that's so it won't link to the timestamp in the video.
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Apr 1, 2024 01:53
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Martman posted:oh good point..... I feel like there must be a better way to do that, but also I'm not surprised at all if there's not Yeah, there's not. That's more on Youtube for having a jank-rear end timestamp system, you'd think they'd have an actual UI for it at this point.
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