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nine-gear crow posted:why can't there also be Space poo poo that makes you fat for a couple of hours. See also: Apollo, Battlestar Galactica. Also, Phlox may be the best, as in most skilled, doctor in Trek, but boy did he achieve most of his medical knowledge and acumen from war crimes and crimes against humanity that he just conveniently kept finding himself having to commit.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:07
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nine-gear crow posted:Fair. There's Space poo poo that makes you old, makes you young, makes you evil, gives you telekenesis and lighting powers, and so forth, why can't there also be Space poo poo that makes you fat for a couple of hours. Though you'd think they could cure obesity in the Star Trek universe by beaming most of the fat cells out of your body a la Lonely Among Us or Unnatural Selection....
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Apr 1, 2024 02:09
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Though you'd think they could cure obesity in the Star Trek universe by beaming most of the fat cells out of your body a la Lonely Among Us or Unnatural Selection.... I'd prefer to think of it as with World War III having wiped the majority of corporations off the planet in cleansing nuclear hellfire, when society rebuilt itself into a post-scarcity utopia after First Contact, one of the many things that just did not come back were the modern food manufacturing companies that pump absolute nutritionless poo poo into everything you buy at a super market, so obesity rates just fell off a cliff in the 2030s in TrekWorld and then just never came back again, ever.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:18
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Fighting Trousers posted:Having previously done a big network show from the top of the call sheet before, Bakula was apparently very protective of his castmates, and he was royally pissed at them having basically had their series finale stolen from them. Archer was a frequently iffy character, but Bakula's a stand-up guy. Everything I've read about Bakula has been glowing praise; before, during and after Enterprise.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:23
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Wee Bairns posted:Everything I've read about Bakula has been glowing praise; before, during and after Enterprise. The man was the perfect choice to play a starship captain on Star Trek and someone got monkey's paw'd by wishing for it SUPER hard.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:25
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nine-gear crow posted:The man was the perfect choice to play a starship captain on Star Trek and someone got monkey's paw'd by wishing for it SUPER hard. Bakula's fine and by all accounts a tremendously kind person, but he's very, very limited as an actor--I think even he'll admit that--and he's just too jovial and "aw, shucks"-natured to play the arrogant jackwagon that Archer was written as for much of Enterprise's run. He had a similar problem on NCIS: New Orleans; beyond the hilariously awful attempt at a Bayou accent, he just wasn't really believable as the tough-as-nails chief of a criminal investigation office.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:29
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Archer dying in the Mirror Universe was very cathartic because Prime Archer is still a nasty loving war criminal, but I have no beef with Bakula or his performance. Speaking of Archer's war crimes, I started reading The Illyrian Enigma with my son and it basically opens with, "Oh and we maybe did some war crimes to the Illyrians back in the day, but Archer's logs on the matter are somehow spotty. They may not be all the cooperative." I do like that the writers went there and we may actually see some consequences to Archer's loving around. Timby posted:Bakula's fine and by all accounts a tremendously kind person, but he's very, very limited as an actor--I think even he'll admit that--and he's just too jovial and "aw, shucks"-natured to play the arrogant jackwagon that Archer was written as for much of Enterprise's run. He had a similar problem on NCIS: New Orleans; beyond the hilariously awful attempt at a Bayou accent, he just wasn't really believable as the tough-as-nails chief of a criminal investigation office. His limited range works to his advantage if the goal was to make Archer a completely unlikable nepobaby who was always one bad decision away from getting his entire crew killed.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:31
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Timby posted:Bakula's fine and by all accounts a tremendously kind person, but he's very, very limited as an actor--I think even he'll admit that--and he's just too jovial and "aw, shucks"-natured to play the arrogant jackwagon that Archer was written as for much of Enterprise's run. He had a similar problem on NCIS: New Orleans; beyond the hilariously awful attempt at a Bayou accent, he just wasn't really believable as the tough-as-nails chief of a criminal investigation office. So what your saying is that if Anson Mount didn't exist, he'd be the perfect choice to play Pike on SNW 
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Apr 1, 2024 02:40
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Atlas Hugged posted:
Amusingly enough, 'spotty records' is how the ENT continuation novels got around some of the worst parts of TATV.
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Apr 1, 2024 02:52
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nine-gear crow posted:Fair. There's Space poo poo that makes you old, makes you young, makes you evil, gives you telekenesis and lighting powers, and so forth, why can't there also be Space poo poo that makes you fat for a couple of hours. I believe the in-universe technical term is "strange energies."
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Apr 1, 2024 03:05
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nine-gear crow posted:These Are The Voyages... needs to be experienced at least once in the lifetime of every Trek fan. Until Picard Season 2 came along to supplant it, it was the single worst and most spiteful piece of Trek TV ever made. It was amazing. The funny thing is, if I squint I can see how they genuinely may have thought it was what everyone wanted to see. They thought people would be thrilled to have the show blessed by TNG characters. I think they were really just so far gone and so out of touch with what people actually wanted at that point that their ideas really were that bad. I've mentioned it in this thread before, but funny enough, the showrunners of Justice League Unlimited basically did the same thing (with an asterisk, because the show actually got a surprise renewal). It was better received because, well, I think the simple answer is it was just done well instead of poorly. Most of people's quibbles with the episode are with the plot itself, not the fact that it's essentially a Batman/Beyond episode hijacking the series to bring the DC animated universe full circle.
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Apr 1, 2024 03:20
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Sir Lemming posted:The funny thing is, if I squint I can see how they genuinely may have thought it was what everyone wanted to see. They thought people would be thrilled to have the show blessed by TNG characters. I think they were really just so far gone and so out of touch with what people actually wanted at that point that their ideas really were that bad. I think the big self-inflicted arrow in the foot of These Are The Voyages is killing Trip for no reason. The Riker stuff is inaptly done, and takes away the focus from the NX-01 crew, but if it was just that, it would have been a tiny turd in the punchbowl instead of a massive one that comes from just murdering THE most popular character on the show aside from T'Pol, and in a weird and haphazard pointless sacrifice that serves little purpose over all and only pissed everyone off. There's a reason it lead to speculation on the old Trek BBS and EAS forums that there was some sort of hatred or rivalry between Brannon Braga and Manny Coto of which Braga seemingly got the last laugh by killing Coto's favourite character to write for in the final episode. This of course wasn't true and Braga and Coto actually became fast friends working on Enterprise, but it was such a swerve it just FELT like they hated one another at the time. And it sat so poorly with fans that literally the first thing that was done in the Enterprise follow-up novels was retconning Trip's death. I don't really have a problem with it being a small personal mission that wraps up the Enterprise story. It's a nice way to showing Archer and Shran's friendship coming to completeness. Terra Prime satisfies the epic throwdown and is a good "Old Earth's last stand before passing on and becoming Star Trek Earth completely" torch pass narrative to set up TOS. But it's Tucker's death that really makes it feel like a story written with spite in mind more than love.
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Apr 1, 2024 05:28
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Cutting away from the founding of the Federation just as it was about to happen was incredibly on the nose after Voyager already pulled that stunt with it's ending, it literally being a "computer end program" moment is just icing on the bad tasting cake at that point
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Apr 1, 2024 06:08
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Seemlar posted:Cutting away from the founding of the Federation just as it was about to happen was incredibly on the nose after Voyager already pulled that stunt with it's ending, it literally being a "computer end program" moment is just icing on the bad tasting cake at that point It's amazing how nearly every "what's the worst/funniest thing they could do in a Modern Trek show" trope just goes right back to TATV. It just absolutely traumatized an entire generation of Trekkies, it was that bad. Weird time jumps. Irrelevant plot swerves. Killing off characters for no reason. Not letting you actually see pivotal moments. Lame stunt cameos. "Computer, end program! [series ends]" It's got everything. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Apr 1, 2024 |
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Apr 1, 2024 07:19
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I think if you view TATV as the wrap-up to a run of Trek that started with Encounter at Farpoint, it's actually fine. After like 20 years of writing a shitload of Trek, the production team deserved to take a slightly self indulgent bow, I think. The problem was, it was also a finale to Ent, and seen through that lens, yeah all the criticism holds up.
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Apr 1, 2024 08:42
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After what they did with direct control of more than half of it, they deserved to perform a penance. What we got was the indulgence.
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Apr 1, 2024 09:52
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galenanorth posted:There was that episode where Harry Kim has a forbidden romance with an alien and transmits or gets an STD, then he goes on a Frank Grimes-style rant about how such behavior wasn't expected from "good Harry Kim", and the whole episode felt kind of meta about Harry Kim. "The Disease" (S05E17) I don't know if it really counts as meta, isn't the episode where Kim straight up says it's bullshit he's been serving on this crew for years without a promotion and Janeway just shrugs and says well, someone's gotta be the ensign.
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Apr 1, 2024 11:56
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McSpanky posted:After what they did with direct control of more than half of it, they deserved to perform a penance. What we got was the indulgence. Yeah I guess that's the core of it. Going back to my Justice League Unlimited example, they were coming off basically the high point of the entire franchise, so they earned a victory lap where they could go back and indulge in a bunch of Batman stuff. (And of course, Batman was literally a character on the show.) Not really the case with Enterprise.
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Apr 1, 2024 13:43
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McSpanky posted:After what they did with direct control of more than half of it, they deserved to perform a penance. What we got was the indulgence. And in the process, they wound up wasting Jeffrey Combs (an unforgivable sin) and yada-yada-ing everything they didn't feel like dealing with (Trip and T'Pol's relationship, the fact that nobody's gotten a promotion in a decade). I'll let the founding of the Federation thing slide, simply because Coto had already written that speech for Terra Prime, and nothing B&B could slap together could top that.
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Apr 1, 2024 13:52
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 Choices were made in that finale. Choices were made.
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Apr 1, 2024 14:01
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I stand by my opinion of TAtV (note that I don't comment on its quality, for obvious reasons):disaster pastor posted:These Are the Voyages is the most appropriate finale Enterprise could have had. "Here, watch characters people actually care about for 45 minutes while they pretend this half-story is the most meaningful thing the Enterprise crew did, which really reinforces how irrelevant this show truly was, and now it's over and you never have to think about it again." It's legitimately perfect.
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Apr 1, 2024 14:19
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Sir Lemming posted:The funny thing is, if I squint I can see how they genuinely may have thought it was what everyone wanted to see. They thought people would be thrilled to have the show blessed by TNG characters. I think they were really just so far gone and so out of touch with what people actually wanted at that point that their ideas really were that bad. These Are The Voyages would have been absolutely fine TNG crossover episode if it had been a timeskip to get to the Earth-Romulan war and used as a series opener to set up scene for a ENT Season 5 or Season 4 part B where we actually see the foundation of the federation. Now its just a "fast forward to end of the story with this crew, oh yeah that one guy died" and with ENT crew (and at-time showrunner) being stolen their last hurrah and all the "big events" ENT was supposed to cover, crammed to the absolutely last possible moment before Star Trek took a decade-long hiatus. No warning beforehand, no explanation or setup, one episode set as a collection of holotapes where Riker studies what Archer and pals did when they faced an enemy that was technologically advanced beyond their all resources, before going to a situation where another war with Romulans was likely if they mess up the Pegasus mission. Corporate gets the TNG crossover, fans would be WTF over the moon to see Riker and Troi again out of nowhere, and then we would get second proper season, or part B of the last season of S4-quality ENT. Altough they later sort-of did this idea in LDS, where Riker and Troi's ship is the one to respond to the emergency beacon. Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Apr 1, 2024 |
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Apr 1, 2024 16:28
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disaster pastor posted:I stand by my opinion of TAtV (note that I don't comment on its quality, for obvious reasons): Enterprise just wasn't needed was it They COULD have done some fun stuff with it, they could have shown how the Andorians, Tellerites and even Vulcans lived their lives. It could have done for them what DS9 did for Cardassia and Bajor. But it just turned into TNG again.
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Apr 1, 2024 16:50
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If they had to kill somebody for ~drama~, couldn't they have killed Reed?
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Apr 1, 2024 16:51
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Fighting Trousers posted:If they had to kill somebody for ~drama~, couldn't they have killed Reed? It would have made too much sense for a chief of security to get killed while resolving a situation with hostile boarders.
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Apr 1, 2024 16:52
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Like seriously, what lesson did Riker learn watching the Last Ride of the NX-01 that helped him with his moral dilemma in Pegasus? "Sometimes you just gotta grab the live wire and shock the poo poo out of yourself to death for no reason?" Because I guess he kinda did that too by just dropping dime on Pressman to Picard re: the cloaking device...? Maybe?
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Apr 1, 2024 17:04
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nine-gear crow posted:Like seriously, what lesson did Riker learn watching the Last Ride of the NX-01 that helped him with his moral dilemma in Pegasus? "Sometimes you just gotta grab the live wire and shock the poo poo out of yourself to death for no reason?" Because I guess he kinda did that too by just dropping dime on Pressman to Picard re: the cloaking device...? Maybe? Yeah, that's another big problem with TATV: the choice of TNG episode it's set in. The Pegasus never really had a hole in it that needed filling; it never felt like Riker's decision to come clean was out of nowhere.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:10
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Honestly, These Are The Voyages as a concept would've been fine if they made it actually a reflection on the contributions of Enterprise as seen by history and not just an excuse to see some TNG friends again.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:17
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Or if you really want to be fancy and have money for cameos, have each of the four acts be a different very quick thin framing story flashing back (not holosim) to different times in ENT: one from TOS, one from TNG, one from DS9, one from VOY. Each a little further down the ENT timeline, ending at the founding of the Federation. Then at the end you can pan across all of the future framing bits while we hear Archer's speech about how great the Federation will be.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:26
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MikeJF posted:Honestly, These Are The Voyages as a concept would've been fine if they made it actually a reflection on the contributions of Enterprise as seen by history and not just an excuse to see some TNG friends again. Yeah, like set it in the aftermath of Generations. The Enterprise-E's still under construction so Riker has some time off and he's questioning if he should continue on as XO on yet another Enterprise or move on with his career elsewhere so Troi's like "Oh why don't you watch this holo program on the old NX-01 Enterprise, it might help you make up your mind" and then Riker learns the meaning of Christmas and how important the legacy of the Enterprise really is to Starfleet and the Federation, including Archer's speech at the signing of the Federation Charter, then you can have the last shot be Riker getting on a shuttle and he passes by the NX-01 in drydock at the Fleet Museum on his way to the Enterprise-E so you tie up the start* and the end* of Star Trek all in one shot.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:26
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Would still have made the ENT crew a sideshow in their series ender, though. It would have been OK, if there had been that ENT movie Bakula was talking about at one point in the production pipeline.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:33
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Well, another thing you could have done is do the franchise-farewell tribute as the second last episode.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:34
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I’m honestly curious what the writers and producers of that lovely finale would think of nerds still debating it almost 20 years later. I am sure they just poo poo it out and moved on, knowing that their steady job was ending and they’d have to think about their next project/paycheck was coming from. What still amazes me in comparison is how much effort and how good the TNG finale is, even when they were literally refocusing all of production and attention for Generations that was likely already deep in production by the finale.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:44
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jeeves posted:I’m honestly curious what the writers and producers of that lovely finale would think of nerds still debating it almost 20 years later. It was Star Trek. The entire franchise was revived for 90s Trek due to nerds debating lovely episodes 20 years later. They knew that this was a lasting thing.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:47
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MikeJF posted:Or if you really want to be fancy and have money for cameos, have each of the four acts be a different very quick thin framing story flashing back (not holosim) to different times in ENT: one from TOS, one from TNG, one from DS9, one from VOY. Each a little further down the ENT timeline, ending at the founding of the Federation. Then at the end you can pan across all of the future framing bits while we hear Archer's speech about how great the Federation will be. It owns so much that the final "farewell to this era of Trek" montage has voiceover from Picard, Kirk, and Archer and completely ignores VOY and DS9.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:48
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The finale should have been the trial of Johnathan Archer with witnesses brought in from across the timeline to argue the pros and cons of interfering in the timeline. Half guest star extravaganza, half clip show.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:58
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Pinterest Mom posted:It owns so much that the final "farewell to this era of Trek" montage has voiceover from Picard, Kirk, and Archer and completely ignores VOY and DS9. As well it should.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:58
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I’d have been happier if it was not packaged as an episode of Enterprise, and instead was a one-off 90-minute farewell to Berman Trek. Have some future scholar learning about the history of Starfleet and using future tech to travel back to various eras of Trek and somehow interact with the crew; either Trials and Tribblations style, or pull in whichever actors are free.
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Apr 1, 2024 18:28
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All I know is my 6th grade teacher really liked that ending speech and it was on a mixtape he'd play every now and then.
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Apr 1, 2024 18:31
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jeeves posted:I’m honestly curious what the writers and producers of that lovely finale would think of nerds still debating it almost 20 years later. Here you go, reactions from Braga, Coto, Frakes, and several members of the main cast. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/These_Are_the_Voyages..._(episode)#Reception
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Apr 1, 2024 18:32
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