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Endorph posted:the issue is that i would rather read the version of this manga thats just school bullshit with occasional real villains than the version he apparently thinks is important I think everyone would rather read that at this point
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Apr 3, 2024 16:05
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whatever heart MHA had was totally gobbled up by genre conventions, it’s sad to see
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Apr 3, 2024 16:08
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i still see no way that deku can justifiably end up being called the "greatest hero" by the end of this manga
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Apr 3, 2024 16:42
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Casey Finnigan posted:i still see no way that deku can justifiably end up being called the "greatest hero" by the end of this manga Everyone else is dead or crippled. Deku wins by default.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:16
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Rhonne posted:Everyone else is dead or crippled. Deku wins by default. The Tonya Harding of heroes.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:26
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Casey Finnigan posted:i still see no way that deku can justifiably end up being called the "greatest hero" by the end of this manga "Deku overcomes the greatest villain by redeeming and saving his victim via a genuine act of caring and self-sacrifice and in doing so saves Japan and arguably the world" seems a perfectly valid reason for him to end up that way.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:28
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I guess it is true that if there is only one actual fundamentally bad guy in the entire world then eliminating that bad guy is the greatest possible act of heroism. Understood. Eri is the greatest hero
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Apr 3, 2024 17:38
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I mean the entire series, up until this point, has made it very clear that being the greatest hero isn't just about beating up the most bad guys. All-Might was the greatest because he inspired people to do good and Endevour is a poo poo hero despite having a score almost as good as All Might because he was a violent abusive shithead. Hawks murdering Twice was a bad thing despite being the logical correct choice because Hawks betrayed a friend and murdered him because it was the easy 'right' choice rather than the genuinely good one. Mirio and Deku both were in the wrong for allowing an abused girl to return to her abuser because the other choice was hard and both of them felt like poo poo about it. I'm not thrilled by AFO returning again but I feel like going "How is Deku the best?! Stupid story" ignores that literally the entire story has been about heroism being doing what is right and what is hard and Deku has actively given up everything important to him in an attempt to redeem an (self-proclaimed) irredeemable person who he refuses to give up on, as opposed to deciding he needed to be killed because it's easier.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:46
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I feel like that'd be fine if they didn't have another person who they just declared to be beyond redemption and then killed because he's a danger to society. I know AFO did a lot of bad stuff and everything but Shigaraki has quite the kill count at this point
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Apr 3, 2024 17:49
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Casey Finnigan posted:I feel like that'd be fine if they didn't have another person who they just declared to be beyond redemption and then killed because he's a danger to society. He killed himself. Like that's literally the plot point there. He was in prison, broke out, murdered a bunch of people, and when confronted with consequences he chose to suicide himself in an attempt to kill more people and then take over another person's body. He was stopped by other people and eventually self-destructed. Every attempt made to get him to stop failed and he showed no remorse for his actions.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:51
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I think we're talkin' about perfect boy Twice here, who did nothing wrong and only murdered bad people. There keep almost being themes in this manga. If they drew some kind of parallel between forgiving Shigaraki for murdering everyone who looked at his friends crosseyed and forgiving Hawks for murdering anyone a government official told him to, that'd be interesting.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:54
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Mystic Mongol posted:I think we're talkin' about perfect boy Twice here, who did nothing wrong and only murdered bad people. If we're talking about Twice then that was unambiguously presented as a bad thing and a massive flaw on Hawks behalf and everyone involved treated it like an awful thing he did, to the point where it being revealed was a serious blow to people's views of heroes.
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Apr 3, 2024 17:57
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oh jay posted:Imagine saving the world only to grow old and become a side character in Boruto. An entire supporting cast of Tentens? ...huh, Momo suddenly makes a lot more sense
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Apr 3, 2024 18:02
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ImpAtom posted:If we're talking about Twice then that was unambiguously presented as a bad thing and a massive flaw on Hawks behalf and everyone involved treated it like an awful thing he did, to the point where it being revealed was a serious blow to people's views of heroes. Dabi lied and misrepresented Twice's death which is why it hurt the perception of heroes. In reality, Hawks gave Twice every opportunity to surrender, and he refused.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:09
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ImpAtom posted:He killed himself. Like that's literally the plot point there. He was in prison, broke out, murdered a bunch of people, and when confronted with consequences he chose to suicide himself in an attempt to kill more people and then take over another person's body. He was stopped by other people and eventually self-destructed. Every attempt made to get him to stop failed and he showed no remorse for his actions. I mean, the heroes were totally about to kill him before he activated Rewind. Just because he eventually rewound out of existence doesn't change the fact that the heroes were out to kill him and were not presented as being wrong for trying. And now Deku is going to have to kill his ghost so he can save Shigaraki(because saving Shiggy from the evil master that betrayed him is easier to write than Deku saving Shigaraki from himself with kindness and understanding).
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Apr 3, 2024 18:09
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Rhonne posted:I mean, the heroes were totally about to kill him before he activated Rewind. Just because he eventually rewound out of existence doesn't change the fact that the heroes were out to kill him and were not presented as being wrong for trying. And now Deku is going to have to kill his ghost so he can save Shigaraki(because saving Shiggy from the evil master that betrayed him is easier to write than Deku saving Shigaraki from himself with kindness and understanding). The heroes were trying to kill him because he was currently in the act of attacking people and made literally zero move to surrender, give up or stop. (Also like, the story has never been on the side of 'actually fighting is bad' because it's a shonen punchman manga. It just is on the side of 'there are paths besides punching which are more heroic if you take them.') NikkolasKing posted:Dabi lied and misrepresented Twice's death which is why it hurt the perception of heroes. In reality, Hawks gave Twice every opportunity to surrender, and he refused. The story makes it clear Hawks doesn't view it that way though. Like Hawks genuinely regrets what he did and it is painted to the audience as a genuinely tragic thing that shouldn't have happened. (Even if Twice goes out with a bit of murder.)
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Apr 3, 2024 18:13
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ImpAtom posted:The heroes were trying to kill him because he was currently in the act of attacking people and made literally zero move to surrender, give up or stop. How is that different from what Shigaraki has been doing
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Apr 3, 2024 18:17
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Shigaraki was a nice baby once
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Apr 3, 2024 18:18
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Casey Finnigan posted:How is that different from what Shigaraki has been doing Deku has reason to believe that Shigaraki is different (you can argue how justified it is, but the story is clearly painting him as being right) and is acting on it. That's it. That is, in fact, why he is being lead up to being the greatest hero because he sees this person, believes that despite being terrible they need help, and acts to do it. It's literally going back to what happened with Bakugo in the first chapter. Like you can dislike what it is doing but going "Why does the story say Deku is good if he didn't redeem AFO" and the answer the story is giving is "Deku was correct that Shigaraki is someone desperate for help despite his words while AFO neither wanted nor asked for help."
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Apr 3, 2024 18:21
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Well yeah. I do dislike that, because it's dumb and contrived. Are there any shonen series that have a good ending anyway? Between this, people hating JJK's final boss fight, people hating Demon Slayer's ending... I mean even the Buu saga in DBZ was rear end
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Apr 3, 2024 18:25
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The Buu saga ruled
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Apr 3, 2024 18:30
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Only the Satan and Buu and Bee the dog friendship ruled
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Apr 3, 2024 18:31
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the buu saga had issues but the ending fight was very good unfortunately the uub stuff, was not, very good
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Apr 3, 2024 18:43
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Casey Finnigan posted:Well yeah. I do dislike that, because it's dumb and contrived. Fullmetal Alchemist had a top tier ending.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:45
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most of Buu felt like Toriyama noodling around and doing whatever (moreso than usual), which is different from the usual shounen doldrums where the author is dying from overwork and slapping together cliches to bridge the gap to a proper ending page so few weekly mangas’ unique qualities survive this update schedule
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Apr 3, 2024 18:45
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theres a lot of sports manga with p. good endings but if we're just sticking to the fight/fantasy adventure definition of shonen, then uhh, fullmetal alchemist's ending arc was mostly pretty good though the actual fight with father is kinda meh, but the ending-ending was sweet
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Apr 3, 2024 18:45
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I think Assassination Classroom ended pretty well.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:47
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Oxxidation posted:most of Buu felt like Toriyama noodling around and doing whatever (moreso than usual), which is different from the usual shounen doldrums where the author is dying from overwork and slapping together cliches to bridge the gap to a proper ending page I mean, in Dragon Ball’s case Toriyama had wanted to end the series at various different places (first at Freiza, then at Cell, and possibly other points before Z that I’m not aware of) but his editor kept pushing him into continuing it
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Apr 3, 2024 18:48
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i think the last like 5th of rear end class got a little bland but the ending itself was good in general a lot of the big weekly jump titles seem to run out of steam a fair bit before they actually end. like its hard to think of that many that hit the last stretch and then just ramp it all the way to the end, most feel a bit dragged out. like the finale war arc that lasts forever is a common stereotype.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:49
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Lots of Jojos end pretty well.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:50
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Jojo has been monthly for a while. maybe it was always, not sure
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Apr 3, 2024 18:51
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Endorph posted:i think the last like 5th of rear end class got a little bland but the ending itself was good Case in point: Bleach (which peaked very early in my opinion)
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Apr 3, 2024 18:52
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Oxxidation posted:Jojo has been monthly for a while. maybe it was always, not sure It switched to monthly during the early part of Steel Ball Run and has stuck with it since then.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:55
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Larryb posted:I mean, in Dragon Ball’s case Toriyama had wanted to end the series at various different places (first at Freiza, then at Cell, and possibly other points before Z that I’m not aware of) but his editor kept pushing him into continuing it thats not quite true. toriyama didn't want to specifically end at frieza or cell, like he didnt have them in mind as his big climaxes, its more just that dbz kept continuing until he could talk his editors, jump, the anime producers, etc into letting him end it. toriyama was basically just drawing week-to-week with no real plans. the only conclusive ending points hes ever mentioned are 1 ) the very first hunt for the dragon balls arc. he intended the series to just be a quick little adventure, but it wasnt very popular compared to slump, so he pivoted to tournament stuff because baseball tournaments and races and such were always popular in slump, so he figured a tournament would do well. 2) after the fight with piccolo jr., toriyama (in the form of roshi) breaks the fourth wall to say the manga'll continue 'just a little longer.' there's foreshadowing of namek with piccolo and kami's conversation in an alien language, but considering everything up to piccolo jr lasted 4 years and then it took another 3 to get to the end of the namek arc, its safe to say he didnt originally intend all of that to last as long as it did, or for a character like frieza to necessarily exist. its possible he just intended to address goku and piccolo's alien origins and then it got out of hand.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:56
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Oxxidation posted:Jojo has been monthly for a while. maybe it was always, not sure thats part of the reason part 6 is a pretty clear dividing line.
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Apr 3, 2024 18:57
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I will say I think Chainsaw Man Part 1 ended well, but it also ended very bluntly at Part 1 so I'm not sure if it should count.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:00
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Casey Finnigan posted:Well yeah. I do dislike that, because it's dumb and contrived. An interesting point. All my favorite shounen have pretty weak endings now I think on it. I love Inuyasha to death for its beginning and middle, certainly not its end. I guess MHA might end up in good company, then. I have faith One Piece will stick the landing, though. What has always separated Oda from even my other favorite writers is he clearly has a plan for where he's going and what he's doing. Everything (almost) always comes together in a satisfying fashion. I have absolute faith it will end better than Naruto or Bleach, of course. Some shounen I like the endings, if not the ending arcs. Like Death Note or Yu Yu Hakusho. Three Kings is not good, but the ending fight and Yusuke's return to Earth is superb. Same for Death Note - Near is a lackluster L replacement but Light's defeat is quite great. It's a weird combination of a lot of nothing leading up to something awesome.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:03
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DN and YYH are two I'd agree on having good endings as in just the actual ending, to the point I really genuinely disliked DN's anime changing the ending to give Light slightly more dignity.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:19
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ImpAtom posted:DN and YYH are two I'd agree on having good endings as in just the actual ending, to the point I really genuinely disliked DN's anime changing the ending to give Light slightly more dignity. I forget, how do the DN manga and anime differ in terms of the ending again?
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Apr 3, 2024 19:22
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Larryb posted:I forget, how do the DN manga and anime differ in terms of the ending again? In the manga Light gets shot down and dies pathetically on the floor of the warehouse, Ryuk kind of smugly writing his name in the Death Note as Light pleas for him not to and Ryuk basically mocks him for being so pathetic in his last moments.. It's really shameful and really gives him the undignified ending everything was leading up to. In the anime he gets shot but gets away. Ryuk still kills him but there's a sense of regret and 'we had some fun, didn't we' to it, and he dies relatively peacefully sitting alone on some steps in warm colors while sunlight shines down on him, genuinely more dignified.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:28
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