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PostNouveau posted:his nephew is a moron who's loyal to Yabu. Who's his nephew? Because the one who's loyal to Yabu is Omi, who is Yabu's nephew.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:45
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Omi is Yabushige's nephew.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:47
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PostNouveau posted:The level of deception DOES seem to have at least a solid foundation. All the characters who we know can't be trusted: Yabu's been playing both sides from the beginning, Blackthorne just wants to leave, Mariko wants to die, Buntaro is a loving mess, Toranaga's son is a moron, his nephew is a moron who's loyal to Yabu. It can be a cliche and still be done well, don't just assume they'll do it the worst way you can imagine
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Apr 3, 2024 19:52
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McNally posted:Who's his nephew? Because the one who's loyal to Yabu is Omi, who is Yabu's nephew. Yeah, I meant to say Yabu's nephew
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Apr 3, 2024 19:56
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This show had me looking up 1600s Japan earthquakes and there were some big ones. The one depicted in the show happened in winter iirc which might make it the 1611 Sanriku earthquake in December https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1611_Sanriku_earthquake With the earlier one that the show depicts freaking out the Anjin being the Aizu earthquake from September https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1611_Aizu_earthquake Though idk how well this lines up with the show's timeline
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Apr 3, 2024 21:24
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The show takes place in 1600, so it wasn't either of those. Japan has earthquakes all the time though, even a smaller one can do a lot of damage in the mountains.
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Apr 3, 2024 21:35
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Like I lived in Tokyo for a year and experienced 3 or 4 earthquakes that were definitely noticeable enough to kind of freak me out, but barely got mentioned on the news or merited much notice from most people. But even those could have easily caused landslides and such in a mountainous area.
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Apr 3, 2024 21:39
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I never got the sense reading the book that it was a historical earthquake, just that this land will kill you in general
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Apr 3, 2024 21:39
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I see, i figured the attempts by the author at some historic accuracy may have included the timing of the quakes but i havent read the book. Didnt realize the story was specifically the year 1600 i must have missed that 
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Apr 3, 2024 21:44
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Yeah there was some on-screen text in the 1st episode that said it was 1600, easy to miss.
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Apr 3, 2024 21:56
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Earthquakes in Japan are like, I dunno, tornados in the Midwestern US. You might hear about the really big/destructive ones but otherwise they're not super uncommon or noteworthy. It's just a thing that happens. The one in the show isn't supposed to be anything notable other than the fact that it affects the characters we're following.
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Apr 3, 2024 22:01
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Well the Japanese kept good records of them including fatalities for the last 1500 years so if the one from the show actually killed thousands of people then they would have recorded that. Though obv in times of civil war like we see in the show, reporting the losses of a rebel army to the imperial earthquake report scholars might not be something that happened.
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Apr 3, 2024 22:59
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If toronaga's brother turns out to be the main mechanism by which he seizes the regency that will likely be disappointing as well considering he just abruptly entered the story. It also undermines toronaga's development as this man of destiny if his brother is the actual deciding factor. Why should his brother care about him? The viewer has no sense that they are close at all, much less ride or die bros willing to risk their lives and their legacies for one another. We didn't even know he existed prior to last episode. It also seems unlikely that ishido would fully trust saeki and allow his troops inside the city without some unmistakable sign of loyalty beforehand. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 23:12
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I guess what I mean is the book is loosely based on facts and the show tried to correct the facts for the time period but it's still historical fiction and probably...probably didn't mean to reference a specific earthquake. edit: also will the death of Toronaga's son be the catalyst to his brother switching sides? I'm guessing since we're in new territory and they made that ending for a reason I think not just shock value.
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Apr 3, 2024 23:24
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Turpitude posted:Well the Japanese kept good records of them including fatalities for the last 1500 years so if the one from the show actually killed thousands of people then they would have recorded that. Though obv in times of civil war like we see in the show, reporting the losses of a rebel army to the imperial earthquake report scholars might not be something that happened. it's not a perfect historical representation, some things are just done for story beats and to affect the characters
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Apr 3, 2024 23:33
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Good lord, the scene in episode 2 where Blackthorne explains the European political situation to Toranaga.
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Apr 4, 2024 01:43
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Aeolusdallas posted:You know this is not many years after Japan launched an unprovoked invasion of Korea and tried to conquer them. Yep, it takes place literally only two years after that war ended. The Japanese caused probably close to a million deaths over the course of those invasions between battle and famine/disease being extremely widespread. The invasions of Korea are actually a pretty major factor in how the political situation in Japan turned out in the aftermath. Jamwad Hilder fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 01:49
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I would also have to imagine that in about ten years the people of Okinawa would raise some eyebrows at their shocked indignation at empires claiming other people's stuff.
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Apr 4, 2024 02:16
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Having not read the book and not being super well versed in Japanese history, I don't really know where this is all going, so I'm enjoying it without any preconceived notions of how much is supposed to happen or where the story is supposed to end up. If anything, I appreciated how this episode didn't end with a sense of "Oh poo poo, now war is about to get going" like several previous episodes have. The ending managed to feel really good, the framing and acting and just letting the rain keep playing over the credits, despite the fake plugin blood being distractingly bad. I am tired of Japanese women constantly longing for death though. Is that historically accurate at all? One of the only things I remember about the Tom Cruise movie was the first thing the lady says in that is begging for permission to kill herself too. It feels like it's leaning a bit too far into the 'culture obsessed with death' stereotype.
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Apr 4, 2024 02:41
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counterfeitsaint posted:I am tired of Japanese women constantly longing for death though. Is that historically accurate at all? One of the only things I remember about the Tom Cruise movie was the first thing the lady says in that is begging for permission to kill herself too. It feels like it's leaning a bit too far into the 'culture obsessed with death' stereotype. It's pretty much bullshit, but it's come to be expected from dramas about the period. While ritual suicide was certainly a thing, the Japanese weren't a bunch of goth teens obsessed with death and dying. Arbitrarily killing peasants or people "less" than you was also not really a thing, but again, it's a common trope for the period. That's not to say none of these things ever happened, because they did, but it's always way overblown for drama in my opinion. They certainly had different ideas about death and honor than contemporary westerners, for example, but in the show when that old priest says things like "the only punishment here is death" - that's totally nonsense.
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Apr 4, 2024 03:00
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I think the suicide at the drop of a hat thing is basically ahistorical. My feeling about sengoku jidai is basically samurai lords and ladies would at least consider committing suicide after catastrophically losing (when the alternative was probably being humiliated, tortured, and then executed in the end anyway), and would sometimes be ordered to do it by their lord (as basically an "honorable" way to go out compared to just being executed). Going much further beyond that runs into a lot of bullshit bushido mythology. Probably james clavell would say it's not obsession with death but acceptance of death, and that being a mindset at least worth considering is probably the single most major theme of the book. Certainly you can criticize that from many directions, but that's what he was trying for
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Apr 4, 2024 03:04
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I do find it credible in the context of "all my family has just died and these are loving traumatic times, so I'm highly suicidal and the only thing keeping me alive right now are these duties and obligations". Also sadistic jackasses in positions of power flexing said power and arbitrarily killing people they view below them is still relatively common today.Jamwad Hilder posted:It's pretty much bullshit, but it's come to be expected from dramas about the period. While ritual suicide was certainly a thing, the Japanese weren't a bunch of goth teens obsessed with death and dying. Arbitrarily killing peasants or people "less" than you was also not really a thing, but again, it's a common trope for the period. That's not to say none of these things ever happened, because they did, but it's always way overblown for drama in my opinion. They certainly had different ideas about death and honor than contemporary westerners, for example, but in the show when that old priest says things like "the only punishment here is death" - that's totally nonsense. not really as nonsense as you might think, hideyoshi (the taiko) was not a very good leader, and his main crowning achievement after rising from being a commoner to the nominal ruler of all Japan was to make the class divide even more strict, plus, the sengoku jidai period caused an already highly decentralised realm to become even more so, therefore i do not think that the region under the dominion of someone like Yabushige would have the most fair system of law and order probably much better to have been under someone like ishido or toranaga!
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Apr 4, 2024 03:35
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It kind of makes sense for Fiju who just lost her husband and child, recently, and arguably pointlessly. But Mariko has been lusting for death for like a decade now. It makes even less sense since she's also Catholic and if she actually believes Catholicism, she will burn in hell for all eternity for killing herself.
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Apr 4, 2024 04:22
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Ah yes. Oda Nobunaga, mediocre Tenka-bito and upstart rice lord. Definitely didn’t leave 1580s Japan a safe place to walk the streets. We went Oda -> Toyotomi -> Tokugawa at the close of the historical Sengoku period in 1600. In the show they're instead the not very creatively named Goroda -> Nakamura -> ????????.
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Apr 4, 2024 04:30
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I'm not going to deny mariko is pretty dramatic about it, and as far as I know her walking around ready for death continuously for 15 years is absolutely a clavell invention compared to the historical person she is based on. On the other hand being a christian samurai contains contradictions, but real people hold contradictory views. There were christian samurai who grappled with those contradictions, including historical mariko
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Apr 4, 2024 04:42
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counterfeitsaint posted:It kind of makes sense for Fiju who just lost her husband and child, recently, and arguably pointlessly. But Mariko has been lusting for death for like a decade now. It makes even less sense since she's also Catholic and if she actually believes Catholicism, she will burn in hell for all eternity for killing herself. mhm yes i agree entirely with this logic, catholicism did eliminate suicide entirely among its devout followers also like, come on, she's been stuck in a lovely marriage that she hates for all of those years after her entire family was executed - with her father acting as the executioner no less - with her being the only one spared. no poo poo she's still suicidal and "dramatic about it" like come on this isnt a ridiculous leap, survivors guilt and an abusive husband are not a match made in heaven
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Apr 4, 2024 05:11
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counterfeitsaint posted:Having not read the book and not being super well versed in Japanese history, I don't really know where this is all going, so I'm enjoying it without any preconceived notions of how much is supposed to happen or where the story is supposed to end up. If anything, I appreciated how this episode didn't end with a sense of "Oh poo poo, now war is about to get going" like several previous episodes have. they are noblewomen.
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Apr 4, 2024 05:27
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also 3/5 council daimyo being catholic seems like a much bigger deal than lady mariko's suicidal intent.
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Apr 4, 2024 05:31
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Arbitrarily killing peasants or people "less" than you was also not really a thing, but again, it's a common trope for the period. It wasn't arbitrary but Kiri Sute Gomen was absolutely real and happened a lot
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Apr 4, 2024 05:40
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Tankbuster posted:also 3/5 council daimyo being catholic seems like a much bigger deal than lady mariko's suicidal intent. Just 2, I thought? The leper and the businessman.
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Apr 4, 2024 06:51
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I'm the 5th regent
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Apr 4, 2024 06:59
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Look at me, I am the regent now.
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Apr 4, 2024 07:10
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Mordja posted:Just 2, I thought? The leper and the businessman. Yeah, the third who I think was the actual true believer (the one with leprosy believes because he's desperate for a cure, but that doesn't make him blind to the realities of governing) is the one who was slaughtered in the previous episode. So now it's Ishido and two regents who he recruited, one a puppet and the other the "lesser" Toranaga who also owes him big time, vs two Christian Lords whose beliefs are secondary to what personal gain they hope to achieve. If they'd stuck together as a united force and expelled Toranaga, everything might have fallen apart with their bickering anyway but they probably wouldn't be in a position where Ishido (but really Ochiba) basically now holds all the cards. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 07:59
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Doltos posted:It wasn't arbitrary but Kiri Sute Gomen was absolutely real and happened a lot It did not happen as much as you might think. There were very strict conditions to actually go through with it. You had to have a witness and you had to prove your case was valid to the local lord. If it was found you weren't justified, you could potentially be executed yourself. I am not denying that it happened, because it did, but samurai didn't go around killing whoever was mildly rude to them because that would be ridiculous.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:00
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Jamwad Hilder posted:It did not happen as much as you might think. There were very strict conditions to actually go through with it. You had to have a witness and you had to prove your case was valid to the local lord. If it was found you weren't justified, you could potentially be executed yourself. I am not denying that it happened, because it did, but samurai didn't go around killing whoever was mildly rude to them because that would be ridiculous. Do gangsters sometimes kill people who are mildly disrespectful to them? Since warrior aristocracies are gangs with more rules (one of which is “we can kill you if we want to, but you can’t do it back”), it seems like something that would always be on the table as a possible outcome whenever one of the professional killers was feeling disrespected by someone lower in social standing.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:19
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E: double post
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Apr 4, 2024 15:19
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Wow you're making these guys sound bad
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Apr 4, 2024 16:50
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Jamwad Hilder posted:It did not happen as much as you might think. There were very strict conditions to actually go through with it. You had to have a witness and you had to prove your case was valid to the local lord. If it was found you weren't justified, you could potentially be executed yourself. I am not denying that it happened, because it did, but samurai didn't go around killing whoever was mildly rude to them because that would be ridiculous. I'm not saying you're wrong but at the same time, it's tough to look at any feudal system of justice and expect fair outcomes for regular people. Those systems existed as a means of mass oppression and from what I know, peasants in feudal Japan had no reason to consider themselves protected against abuse by their samurai masters.
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Apr 4, 2024 16:58
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Lol I enjoyed the ending to this episode
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Apr 4, 2024 17:33
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I'm not saying you're wrong but at the same time, it's tough to look at any feudal system of justice and expect fair outcomes for regular people. Those systems existed as a means of mass oppression and from what I know, peasants in feudal Japan had no reason to consider themselves protected against abuse by their samurai masters. The biggest takeaway I got from reading "Silence" (which Scorsese's movie is based on and takes place in the 1630s as Tokugawa's grandson is banning Christians) is that samurai-era Japan was pretty drat lovely for the 95% of the population that wasn't samurai. Rice was a luxury for special occasions. No generous cuckoos. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 17:45
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