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Sunk Dunk posted:The majority of characters in these games are predators so singling out teddy there doesn’t make a lot of sense to me Yeah, good lord, are all the bathhouse scenes not predatory or something? I think some of Teddie's behavior is predatory, but mostly in the way that dumbass highschool boys' behavior usually is. That doesn't make it good or something that shouldn't be corrected, but it's true to life, for better or for worse. Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Apr 4, 2024 |
# ? Apr 4, 2024 18:56 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 19:54 |
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I mean, Yosuke is absolutely also a predator, if you think he's being left out. And plenty of other characters do bad poo poo, but no one else is on their level. and I understand the intention behind Teddie's character; I am saying that they failed to write that and wrote a predator instead. Most characters in Persona 4 horribly fail at what they are supposed to be. E: Majorian posted:I think some of Teddie's behavior is predatory, but mostly in the way that dumbass highschool boys' behavior usually is. That doesn't make it good or something that shouldn't be corrected, but it's true to life, for better or for worse. You spend a year with him where he's consistently being told to knock that poo poo off, and he doesn't relent in the least. That is the part that is actually bad, if he acted even slightly less predatory towards the end of the story, he'd be an entirely different character. Actual children have a much better understanding of boundaries than he does. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Apr 4, 2024 |
# ? Apr 4, 2024 18:58 |
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teddie’s a predator in that he’s always pre-dating
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 19:00 |
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Nothing is worse than an argument between people who agree on the basic facts and just disagree on what word to use to describe it.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 19:06 |
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I wouldn't call them "basic facts."
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 19:08 |
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let's all make sure the cartoon bear is appropriately shamed for his toxic behavior
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 19:48 |
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Actual children have a much better understanding of boundaries than he does. I don't know how many children you've met, but, uh...no they don't. Not unless you explain it to them. The boundaries really aren't effectively explained to Teddie at any point in the game. IIRC the most pushback he gets from the female characters in the game is the sort of "Ewww, as if!" eye-rolling that you see in high school animes, teen comedies, JRPGs, etc. No one ever says to him, "You're making me uncomfortable" or "You can't act that way towards women; you're coming off as a creep."
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 19:58 |
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Majorian posted:I don't know how many children you've met, but, uh...no they don't. Not unless you explain it to them. The boundaries really aren't effectively explained to Teddie at any point in the game. IIRC the most pushback he gets from the female characters in the game is the sort of "Ewww, as if!" eye-rolling that you see in high school animes, teen comedies, JRPGs, etc. No one ever says to him, "You're making me uncomfortable" or "You can't act that way towards women; you're coming off as a creep." The kind of unfortunate thing related to this is that everyone's reaction to Yousuke's worst transgressions is basically the same as their reaction to Teddie. I've seen people say "the rest of the party realizes Yousuke is being an rear end in a top hat to Kanji," but that's not actually true. They never actually disagree with Yousuke - they just think Yousuke is being immature for bringing that stuff up. My general impression is that they view stuff like "Kanji being interested in Naoto" (before Naoto revealing she's a girl), or anything implying Kanji might be gay*, as "a way Kanji is weird, but that they're willing to overlook because he's their friend." So they're not really accepting of those things so much as they tolerate them and still view him as a friend "despite him being weird." * I know he's not, but the story gives the impression that the rest of the party still thinks he might be (or that he's just "weird" for acting like he is) Arist posted:You can disagree with how funny it is but nah Yeah I feel like people have some weird distorted memory of this stuff Basically what ImpAtom says here: ImpAtom posted:The thing is that, no, he isn't. Like Teddie says those things but there's nothing actually behind them. He is painted as too 'innocent' to really get what he's asking for and comes across as trying to mimic humanity more than he is actually being human. (Which is, again, intentional.) Teddie is annoying as poo poo and I don't think the joke is funny, but the entire premise of the guy is that he really doesn't understand what it means to be human and he's doing his best to mimic what he thinks humanity is. He has other dialogue which makes it pretty clear he isn't really even sure what sex is. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 4, 2024 |
# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:01 |
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Majorian posted:I don't know how many children you've met, but, uh...no they don't. Not unless you explain it to them. The boundaries really aren't effectively explained to Teddie at any point in the game. IIRC the most pushback he gets from the female characters in the game is the sort of "Ewww, as if!" eye-rolling that you see in high school animes, teen comedies, JRPGs, etc. No one ever says to him, "You're making me uncomfortable" or "You can't act that way towards women; you're coming off as a creep." Pretty much. The joke is specifically that he keeps talking about 'scoring" and Yukiko is always vaguely offended by it, insisting "can we PLEASE stop talking about scoring." Because of course it all started with Shadow Yukiko talking about "scoring a hot stud." But at no point does anybody tell Teddie what "scoring" means in this context, or why it makes Yukiko uncomfortable.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:03 |
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Zokari posted:let's all make sure the cartoon bear is appropriately shamed for his toxic behavior #CancelTeddie
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:13 |
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i despise his words and deeds
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:17 |
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And this is why Koromaru remains the best mascot. He's just a good dog who doesn't talk.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:48 |
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And his loving feet make a squeaking sound when he runs.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:51 |
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ImpAtom posted:Again, Teddie is portrayed as functionally a child. Like not in a 'this is subtext' way, he acts like and is treated as a child and has a child's view of the world. He does inappropriate things because he was functionally born five seconds before the game began. Portraying that as 'a predator' implies a level of maturity and capability that isn't really present in the character. He's not even on the level of Morgana who is at least portrayed as a functional human being outside of being a cat. The jokes aren't funny but Teddie is literally (as in this is something the game points out) basically on the same mental level as Nanako. The problem is that for all the text of the game intends to be as you say. Teddie doesn't behave the way an actual innocent trying to learn human behaviour works does; an actual innocent would learn after about the fifth time that Yukiko told him to stop doing that that he should stop doing that. The way Teddie is written on the other hand is note-pefect for a predator who uses childlike behaviour to excuse predatory behaviour because that is what the authors are actually doing. Both readings are legitimate; the author's intent is what you claim it is but there's a writing skill issue that means that that's not how a lot of people actually read it.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:52 |
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Some of you have never interacted with a child and it shows.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 20:55 |
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DemoneeHo posted:And this is why Koromaru remains the best mascot. Aigis is the Mascot and she also doesn’t understand boundaries either. Guess Morgana is best by default?
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:02 |
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Ytlaya posted:The kind of unfortunate thing related to this is that everyone's reaction to Yousuke's worst transgressions is basically the same as their reaction to Teddie. I've seen people say "the rest of the party realizes Yousuke is being an rear end in a top hat to Kanji," but that's not actually true. They never actually disagree with Yousuke - they just think Yousuke is being immature for bringing that stuff up. Yeah, and in all honesty, those clumsy interactions and not-fully-fleshed-out views of the world feels very true-to-life for high school kids in that era. Hell, I graduated from HS six years before P4 came out, and the way the characters interact feels familiar to my own experience. I know it sounds like a cop-out (and to some degree, it is), but 2008 really was a different time, especially in media. What was considered at the time to be an acceptable way for men and boys to talk about women and girls is not the same as it is now. I still like movies like "Superbad," (also from 2008) but holy hell, is that movie from a completely different era! The point is, these rough edges are part of what I like about P4. To me, the main party characters feel more grounded than those of the other Persona games. High school kids say and do and believe some dumbass, cringe things. Everyone at that age feels like a dork who is constantly saying the wrong thing, and everyone feels like they're the only one. That's a major theme in the game: everyone that you save from their shadows feels like they're the only one going through what they're experiencing, and they're really not. They learn from their cringey, embarrassing experiences, and most of them learn and grow from them. I get saying that Teddie doesn't grow ENOUGH over the course of the game, and to some extent I agree. But he still has some pretty good character growth IMO. I love the scene at the beach between him and Yu, where he gets his final Persona upgrade, and he talks about how he's grown to love learning about the world and seeking out new experiences. My son is turning one year old a week from tomorrow, and I'm so incredibly excited to show him as much of the world as I possibly can. The way that Teddie develops as a character helps me put into words why that's so exciting: I get to look at the world with new eyes. I get to foster in him a love of learning and a hunger to experience all that life has to offer. I get to celebrate his successes with him and help him learn from his mistakes. Maybe someday he'll be braver than me, and won't be as held back by fear of making mistakes as I often am. neonchameleon posted:The problem is that for all the text of the game intends to be as you say. Teddie doesn't behave the way an actual innocent trying to learn human behaviour works does; an actual innocent would learn after about the fifth time that Yukiko told him to stop doing that that he should stop doing that. Not trying to be snarky here; genuinely asking, if someone has a better memory than I do: are there five times that Yukiko tells him to stop doing that? I'm replaying the game right now, and it feels like those responses from her are pretty rare. It's far more often the non-specific "Can we stop talking about scoring?" type of response, as NikkolasKing pointed out. And even those responses from her don't seem that common. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Apr 4, 2024 |
# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:10 |
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Majorian posted:Yeah, and in all honesty, those clumsy interactions and not-fully-fleshed-out views of the world feels very true-to-life for high school kids in that era. Hell, I graduated from HS six years before P4 came out, and the way the characters interact feels familiar to my own experience. I know it sounds like a cop-out (and to some degree, it is), but 2008 really was a different time, especially in media. What was considered at the time to be an acceptable way for men and boys to talk about women and girls is not the same as it is now. I still like movies like "Superbad," (also from 2008) but holy hell, is that movie from a completely different era! This is also true, but kind of runs into the belief a lot of people have that characters in fiction need to either behave morally all the time or have their immoral/problematic behaviors directly condemned or punished by the narrative.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:24 |
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I don't really think we need to treat the annoying bear who acts like a child like a sex offender, that seems useless to meMajorian posted:Not trying to be snarky here; genuinely asking, if someone has a better memory than I do: are there five times that Yukiko tells him to stop doing that? I'm replaying the game right now, and it feels like those responses from her are pretty rare. It's far more often the non-specific "Can we stop talking about scoring?" type of response, as NikkolasKing pointed out. And even those responses from her don't seem that common. Also, yeah, the reason the "scoring" thing bothers Yukiko is because it's embarrassing to be reminded about her Midnight Channel appearance, and Teddie's mostly bringing it up to inquire about what it means
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:26 |
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Thinking back on it, all the direct lines I can remember ("no one is enjoying this," "you're just making him uncomfortable," that one about consent, etc.) are all aimed at Yosuke. I can't recall anyone sitting Teddie down and telling him specifically why and how he should stop harassing his friends, I'll grant that.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:29 |
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 21:48 |
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I was gonna make an "I learned it from you, dad!" joke but then I remembered what a disappointment Goro must be to his dad.
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# ? Apr 4, 2024 23:17 |
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, Yosuke is absolutely also a predator, if you think he's being left out. I can give Teddie a pass for some things since he has a very tenuous grasp of what is and isn't socially acceptable and decent Yosuke bought two swimsuits in secret for the explicit purpose of guilt tripping his two friends into wearing them, dude is a weirdo
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 00:03 |
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(i'm largely skipping by posts just to make sure i don't catch accidental spoilers, apologies if i miss anything i should respond to) i gotta say i'm instantly loving the dynamic between the characters in p4g. chie, yosuke and yukiko seem like they existed before i arrived and this little gang feels like... well a group of kids trying to solve a mystery. it's really cute (and honestly i think chie just owns completely)
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 00:53 |
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i actually thought at the start yukiko was going to be the murderer or related to them somehow lol obv that's not the case. i love her gag of the hyena laughing, she's such a little goofball
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 00:55 |
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Speaking of garbage characters that should be cancelled. Miyazaki is a piece of poo poo, and I am exceedingly disappointed in how much people faun over his movies.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 01:36 |
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Its because the movies are good
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 01:37 |
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hatty posted:Its because the movies are good Only like two of them are actually good. And both of them, the manga is just straight better.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 01:39 |
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AlternateNu posted:Speaking of garbage characters that should be cancelled. Miyazaki is a piece of poo poo, and I am exceedingly disappointed in how much people faun over his movies. embarrassing post
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 01:45 |
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Huh, I didn't expect to read any hot takes tonight but woo boy.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 02:20 |
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tbp posted:(i'm largely skipping by posts just to make sure i don't catch accidental spoilers, apologies if i miss anything i should respond to) I got nothing against the later party members, but the OG 4 just can't be beaten. They're a vital part of why I love 4 more than any of the other Nu Persona games. Not only do the other three members have a lot of fun banter, Yu gets way better dialogue options than Minato from P3 ever did. Our great hero complaining about how his poor widdle finger hurts and Chie telling him not to cry is a very fond memory of my first run. Glad you're having a great time and looking forward to reading more reports as you go along and see more. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Apr 5, 2024 |
# ? Apr 5, 2024 02:20 |
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miyazaki isn't "a piece of poo poo", but much like most creatives at atlus he's a kinda boring old guy. It was funny when anno and tomino razzed him over porco rosso
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 02:34 |
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As obnoxious as Yosuke's 00's anime personality can be, at least he's not a Mineta from My Hero Academia.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 02:44 |
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Was it ever explained why Teddie had an ego and manifested at around that time, anyway. Like maybe you can say that he spawned as a result of the first murder (when someone went into the TV world for the first time), but him looking the way he is and forgetting his identity feels like either perfect happenstance or just delibearately done. If he didn’t happen to look like a bear and be a friendly person at the spot where Junes entered the tv world we would probably have 3 more dead teenagers a month into the game.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 02:47 |
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Majorian posted:I know it sounds like a cop-out (and to some degree, it is), but 2008 really was a different time, especially in media. What was considered at the time to be an acceptable way for men and boys to talk about women and girls is not the same as it is now. It seems there is an acceleration in "what's acceptable" in general each year, most of which makes sense. Growing up decades ago, I feel like there was always a perving scene in virtually every teen comedy movie, where guys would find a peep-hole into the girls locker room or whatever - poo poo like that - which would NO loving WAY get made today. And that isn't a complaint from me, it's just reflective of the type of comedy for the time. It's mostly in hindsight we say, "Hang on a second, that was actually pretty hosed up!" a few years later. I watched Goldfinger (the Bond film, not the band) with my wife recently and there's this bit in the movie, which has aged.... well, you'll see - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovXysYZTVzs
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 14:40 |
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Teddie should definitely be beaten up with sticks. Not reading why everyone is saying this but he's annoying.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:04 |
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NikkolasKing posted:Pretty much. The joke is specifically that he keeps talking about 'scoring" and Yukiko is always vaguely offended by it, insisting "can we PLEASE stop talking about scoring." Because of course it all started with Shadow Yukiko talking about "scoring a hot stud." Beavis is a pedophile. Let's cancel him
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:05 |
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It's alright, life already took care of that.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:08 |
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Beavis is actually quite un-woke if you really examine his behavior critically.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 15:09 |
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# ? May 24, 2024 19:54 |
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frytechnician posted:It seems there is an acceleration in "what's acceptable" in general each year, most of which makes sense. Growing up decades ago, I feel like there was always a perving scene in virtually every teen comedy movie, where guys would find a peep-hole into the girls locker room or whatever - poo poo like that - which would NO loving WAY get made today. And that isn't a complaint from me, it's just reflective of the type of comedy for the time. It's mostly in hindsight we say, "Hang on a second, that was actually pretty hosed up!" a few years later. Hoo boy yeah. That was my favorite Bond movie as a kid. It took me way too long to realize that Bond full-on violently rapes Honor Blackman's written-as-lesbian character and the movie plays it off as a "corrective rape." Really makes the movie less fun when you realize that.
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# ? Apr 5, 2024 17:35 |