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Blaze Dragon posted:I'd watch an OVA that was just Iok getting killed in increasingly brutal ways by the entire cast. Azee, Lafter and Amida curbstomping Iok like it's the ending of Death Proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0YejZC79wE
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Apr 4, 2024 15:23
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Iok dying was cathartic as hell but that is kind of why I didn't like it in context. The dude was a tremendous pile of poo poo but the idea that the 'villains' won in the ending would have hit harder if Iok didn't decide to Leroy Jenkins it up and we see this awful shitpile basically get to continue forward. It absolutely ends up feeling like "All the REALLY ANNOYING guys get their comeuppance and the one to survive is the Basically Competent Evil One." Like honestly I'd have been way more down with Iok dying as the catharsis to a bleaker ending, but the ending is positive enough that I don't think it earned the "horrible shithead dies at the last second" payoff. If anything I think Nobliss does it better because Nobliss' death emphasizes that not everyone from Tekkadan escaped to better lives and Ride has basically just become a next-generation Orga/Mika. (Dude is doing murder, wearing Orga's scarf and using Mika's gun, he's not living a happy life.) But that's a problem I have with IBO in general in that it tends to go too hard on the villains being dumb unlikable shitheads who you're glad to see get humiliating deaths, especially in the second season. I think Carta Issue was probably the best handled of the lot in that she was a loving horrible person responsible for Biscuit's death and her death is still painted as this horrifying brutal thing where she gets bashed to death and dies crying and miserable and there's no real sense of catharsis to it because even if she was objectively awful, it underlined just how terrible a death she faced. IBO is at its best when violence has impact and feels awful and at its worst when violence feels like payoff at least to me. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 15:33
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ImpAtom posted:Iok dying was cathartic as hell but that is kind of why I didn't like it in context. The dude was a tremendous pile of poo poo but the idea that the 'villains' won in the ending would have hit harder if Iok didn't decide to Leroy Jenkins it up and we see this awful shitpile basically get to continue forward. It absolutely ends up feeling like "All the REALLY ANNOYING guys get their comeuppance and the one to survive is the Basically Competent Evil One." That's yes where my feeling is exactly on Iok.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:39
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ImpAtom posted:I think Carta Issue was probably the best handled of the lot in that she was a loving horrible person responsible for Biscuit's death and her death is still painted as this horrifying brutal thing where she gets bashed to death and dies crying and miserable and there's no real sense of catharsis to it because even if she was objectively awful, it underlined just how terrible a death she faced. going a bit in this direction is more what i was thinking tbh, undercutting the catharsis of iok dying by giving you a bit too much of it and prompting the question of, even if they deserve it, should you really feel this good about watching this happen to someone i don't think that pulling that catharsis away entirely by having iok walk out fine and dandy would've made for a better ending though, the catharsis is good
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Apr 4, 2024 15:43
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Im glad Iok is dead
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Apr 4, 2024 15:53
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ImpAtom posted:I can see it but honestly I feel that way about a lot of Gundam shows. Like to me the epitome of 'unearned fanservice' is where 00 Gundam ends with Setsuna F. Seiei murdering the NotRX-78-2 piloted by NotAmuro Ray. I get what it was going for but that was, to me, probably the most eyerolling thing the franchise has done. I loved it because they let it stew for so long.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:59
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tsob posted:It didn't go off perfectly either, since the entire point was to have a huge war and there was a single battle that mostly involved unmanned mobile suits fighting 5 teenagers with attitude in the void of space that most people didn't even really know about because it was so far away. The Earth Alliance did send some troops under Treize, but it wasn't exactly a huge battle regardless and even then, Treize also wanted to have a personal duel with Zechs where he would presumably die, and Zechs just ignored him. Which is why he commit suicide by his second choice, Wufei; a truly ignoble fate for anyone. This rings to me the same problems I have with Zeta and ZZ. The fluff and sometimes the narrative indicates a wider conflict is going on, but we're never really SHOWN this. Compare with 0079 where there are cuts throughout to what other Earth Federation armies are up to, like Odessa, the launch from Jaburo, all of Solomon and A Baoa Qu. Even those being the only ones I really remember, they give a sense of scale to the conflict by showing what anyone other than White Base and Char are up to. Anyway, it seems the IBO stuff has been mostly litigated out, but I do wanna take one final swipe. Onmi posted:Yeah, it's sad. I'm not arguing the show has a happy ending. I'm arguing it has a bittersweet ending or a sad ending with some level of hope or light. I wanted a harrowing, soul-crushing, miserable ending where there was no hope or any light, or any sweetness to the bitterness. I wanted ash in my mouth. I wanted a bleak darkness of which there was no escape, the vanta dark ending. I get that this was "your poo poo take" but it feels so wildly out of step with the rest of the show and the thesis it was building toward that I really need to check if this was just some little shudder from your lizard brain or something else. I don't see what this ending would improve in the context of the rest of the story. After Calamity is a hosed up world, but it's not a Warhammer 40k-like world where there's absolutely no hope of anything ever being better for a substantial period of time. Things can get better, through lots of work and more than a little blood. The political apparatus has been calcified for a long rear end time, and anything outside the imperial core is a hosed up place to be, but people get by and still have relatively normal lives if you're not one of the child soldiers or human debris. IBO's thesis is that things can be better, but hubris and greed will get you killed. A grimdark ending tosses all of that out the window and changes the thesis to "Why bother trying? You'll die, and it'll hurt the whole time you are dying. Suffer in silence and be satisfied with your lot in life." edit: I feel like I should shout out both Tyranny and WH40k Rogue Trader here because they both end on relatively high notes compared to the expectations set by their settings. (Tyranny with you as Archon of Spires, holding powers similar to Kyros, and having potentially given Kyros a bloody nose politically in the Rebellion ending, and Rogue Trader with you having a pet C'tan Abomidable Intelligence that is loyal to you in a sector of space that the Imperium cannot immediately roll into and poo poo on.) At the same time, in both you're waiting for the other shoe to drop, since with Tyranny the narrative very clearly establishes that Kyros is too clever by a half and may very well have let you win to set you up as controlled opposition so they can better control the political factions in their empire, and everyone KNOWS how anything in 40k shakes out unless the current Eye of Terror situation actually is the end times in which case it will simply be WORSE. My point is that if you wanted to make IBO grimdark, adding extra murder and gore to the ending isn't the way to do it. Instead, imply that the achievement is fleeting and that the status quo will soon reassert itself. Maybe not in your lifetime, but it's probably going to suck for your grandkids. Warmachine fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 16:14
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ImpAtom posted:Iok dying was cathartic as hell but that is kind of why I didn't like it in context. The dude was a tremendous pile of poo poo but the idea that the 'villains' won in the ending would have hit harder if Iok didn't decide to Leroy Jenkins it up and we see this awful shitpile basically get to continue forward. It absolutely ends up feeling like "All the REALLY ANNOYING guys get their comeuppance and the one to survive is the Basically Competent Evil One." Iok not Leroy Jenkins-ing it up would have been a complete betrayal of the character given how many times he does it throughout the season. He kept rolling those dice and finally there wasn't anyone who could bail him out.
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Apr 4, 2024 16:33
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Iok dying is another victory for Rustal, but this time it's a victory for the audience too.
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Apr 4, 2024 16:38
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Napoleon Nelson posted:Iok not Leroy Jenkins-ing it up would have been a complete betrayal of the character given how many times he does it throughout the season. He kept rolling those dice and finally there wasn't anyone who could bail him out. Yeah, this is what makes Iok getting killed at the end not feel only like 100% fanservice bait to me. He established a very consistent pattern of absolutely moronic, nigh-suicidal decision making throughout the entire season and is repeatedly bailed out from suffering the consequences for these total fuckup blunders by the swift thinking and fast reactions of his subordinates and Julieta. Him doing the thing he's already done a lot one more time and nobody being in position to bail him out doesn't feel unearned. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 16:52
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Kanos posted:Yeah, this is what makes Iok getting killed at the end not feel only like 100% fanservice bait to me. He established a very consistent pattern of absolutely moronic, nigh-suicidal decision making throughout the entire season and is repeatedly bailed out from suffering the consequences for these total fuckup blunders by the swift thinking and fast reactions of his subordinates and Julieta. Him doing the thing he's already done a lot one more time and nobody being in position to bail him out doesn't feel unearned. Yeah exactly. There were no surprises as to how that was going to go honestly.
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Apr 4, 2024 17:06
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People dying in IBO has nothing to do with whether they're "good" or "evil" lmao. The consistent theme of the show is that people who place their faith in empty ideals and double down when faced with reality face the consequences of their own actions. Tekkadan, Iok, and McGillis all got hosed for the same reason, the same reason Carta got pasted dishonorably, the same reason Ein and Gaelia lose body parts and worse for the sake of a duel that's only allowed to happen as a distraction—because they didn't know when to cut their losses and assumed the nobility of their cause was self-justifying. Biscuit and Naze were collateral damage from the same thing. This is a specific contrast to Rustal, Kudelia, Atra, Team Yamagi, and the theoretical future where Mikazuki understood he already had what he wanted and retired to his farm. The idea that anyone dies because they "deserve" to, morally rather than principally, or because they were on the right or wrong side is going orthogonal to poo poo the show has characters in position of authority or perspective lament to the camera very loudly multiple times. It's a tragedy with a specific take. People in show were talking about how Tekkadan was losing their way and going off the deep end way back in season 1. It's explicitly the reason Biscuit died!
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Apr 4, 2024 17:13
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ImpAtom posted:I think Carta Issue was probably the best handled of the lot in that she was a loving horrible person responsible for Biscuit's death and her death is still painted as this horrifying brutal thing where she gets bashed to death and dies crying and miserable and there's no real sense of catharsis to it because even if she was objectively awful, it underlined just how terrible a death she faced. Is that the common view of Carta, especially relative to others in the setting or franchise as a whole? She was a mixture of delusion and naive due to her family stuffing her into a historically easy post that wouldn't have exposed her to any real experience or danger, but your post seems to single her out as singularly horrific even by the standards of the show, which seems odd to me. I wouldn't have even viewed her as much worse than Gaelio during season one, frankly; who was fairly naive and deluded due to his status and family much of the time too. Is it just because she killed a likable character? If anything, I'd have said the show wanted you to view her miserable death as indicative of Mika and Tekkadan brutalizing someone who probably didn't deserve it in order to highlight how stupid and bad their thirst for revenge over Biscuit was in general. Warmachine posted:This rings to me the same problems I have with Zeta and ZZ. The fluff and sometimes the narrative indicates a wider conflict is going on, but we're never really SHOWN this. Compare with 0079 where there are cuts throughout to what other Earth Federation armies are up to, like Odessa, the launch from Jaburo, all of Solomon and A Baoa Qu. Even those being the only ones I really remember, they give a sense of scale to the conflict by showing what anyone other than White Base and Char are up to. I don't recall any other scenes explicitly showing the wider war outside of the main cast either frankly, but even then, the cast travel all over the Earthsphere and are always coming into one front or another of the war in various states of engagement, with a fairly varied cast of characters and situations throughout those encounters from deserters to stalemates to active war zones etc. They never really escape the war or find any place it hasn't touched, where Zeta and ZZ feature the cast often placed in spots not typically embroiled in the conflict, and while fighting might touch them, it generally does so as a singular instance because the cast are there rather than being a constant presence. tsob fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 22:19
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tsob posted:Is that the common view of Carta, especially relative to others in the setting or franchise as a whole? She was a mixture of delusion and naive due to her family stuffing her into a historically easy post that wouldn't have exposed to any real experience or danger, but your post seems to single her out as singularly horrific even by the standards of the show, which seems odd to me. I wouldn't have even viewed her as much worse than Gaelio during season one, frankly; who was fairly naive and deluded due to his status and family much of the time too. Is it just because she killed a likable character? She's not a horrible person by the standards of the show (she isn't the evil child murder space pirates for example) but she's still a pretty bad person. Gali Gali was also a terrible person in S1 though.
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Apr 4, 2024 22:21
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After 0079 most of the sequel shows in the UC feel more like their given conflicts follow the central cast, rather than the cast brushing up against a wider canvas like the original. The AEUG rarely feels like a larger movement and more like the entire war effort is centered around the Argama and whatever allies they currently have nearby.
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Apr 4, 2024 22:44
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Arc Hammer posted:After 0079 most of the sequel shows in the UC feel more like their given conflicts follow the central cast, rather than the cast brushing up against a wider canvas like the original. The AEUG rarely feels like a larger movement and more like the entire war effort is centered around the Argama and whatever allies they currently have nearby. This is really funny in Gihren's Ambition Threat of Axis V(the one most people have played), where if you're playing the AEUG route, almost all of your named pilots are the Argama characters and if you let the Zeta plot play out you basically have no named pilots for most of the campaign.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:09
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Kanos posted:This is really funny in Gihren's Ambition Threat of Axis V(the one most people have played), where if you're playing the AEUG route, almost all of your named pilots are the Argama characters and if you let the Zeta plot play out you basically have no named pilots for most of the campaign. It's truly, truly one of the games worst campaigns. Because you're also just often stuck waiting around for the Zeta plot to happen. I think part of it thought is that Threat of Axis V doesn't really like... adapt the events of Sentinel and other MSV's in the time frame. So like the OYW has of course events going all over and pilots from all over. And then you can just Make An S Gundam.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:40
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WrightOfWay posted:Iok dying is another victory for Rustal, but this time it's a victory for the audience too. That Works posted:Im glad Iok is dead
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Apr 5, 2024 04:41
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Arc Hammer posted:After 0079 most of the sequel shows in the UC feel more like their given conflicts follow the central cast, rather than the cast brushing up against a wider canvas like the original. The AEUG rarely feels like a larger movement and more like the entire war effort is centered around the Argama and whatever allies they currently have nearby. Not gonna lie this was one of the reasons why large chunks of Zeta felt aimless compared to the OG. There's just not a lot of feeling of the context around the Gryps Conflict outside of what Kamille can immediately see.
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Apr 5, 2024 04:46
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I feel like a surprising amount of people miss contextual clues as to what's going on with the major conflict. Like the Wong Lee in the fandom is a dude who beat Kamille but they miss that he was the major liason between Anaheim and AEUG and that the Radish is being constructed behind them in that scene and with donations from other spacenoids who want to remain part of the federation rather than join with Zeon, but also don't want to be dominated by the Titans. That's a lot of major information that gets flattened down into just the more digestible character actions. You also can't discount that most viewers of MSG aren't virginal watchers and usually have seen parts of 08th, Origins, Thunderbolt, or 0080 and so even if they try to only count MSG they end up with all these other allusions to separate conflicts in the back of their mind.
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Apr 5, 2024 04:54
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I came into MSG without watching any other OYW stuff...
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Apr 5, 2024 04:56
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So the correct answer is to stop making OYW spinoffs and start making Gryps War and Neo Zeon War spinoffs, got it. It's like Star Wars being unable to move past the A New Hope so that time period gets massively overloaded with media compared to anywhere else.
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Apr 5, 2024 04:57
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Arc Hammer posted:So the correct answer is to stop making OYW spinoffs and start making Gryps War and Neo Zeon War spinoffs, got it. I feel like the Clone Wars got just as jumbled but to much better results honestly. And god I would love more Gryps conflict media, it's the single most interesting conflict in UC and it gets almost zero play.
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Apr 5, 2024 05:00
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Runa posted:Not gonna lie this was one of the reasons why large chunks of Zeta felt aimless compared to the OG. There's just not a lot of feeling of the context around the Gryps Conflict outside of what Kamille can immediately see. Zeta's much worse about it than the original, but there are still scenes and characters that give some indication of a wider war, if only because the parts of the cast we aren't following are implied to be doing something. Gryps exists, it's just that it doesn't have clear form. ZZ doesn't even have that, with the EFF somehow managing to hit an all-time low in both morals and competency, and then somehow managing to sell off some-or-all of an independent political power without anyone noticing or caring.
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Apr 5, 2024 05:18
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I wonder if some of the Gryps, lack of scale conversation happens is because the grandest operations of the AEUG don't always tend to be successful the way the Feddie ops were. Their first big swing in taking Jaburo was a massive mistake that cost them a ton of blood for zero gain even if it didn't neutralize the AEUG the way the Titans wanted. Killimanjaro happens mostly off screen with Karaba support but doesn't effect the space war which is the main conflict. By that point the AEUG and Titans are both so reduced they're both courting Haman as kingmaker, and she's not eager to play her hand yet. The only big operation that actually goes off if Maelstrom which is do or die for both AEUG and Titans and that battle is so bloody Haman almost has a free hand at the start of ZZ.
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Apr 5, 2024 05:21
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I mean there is a reason it's the Gryps "Conflict" rather than War, it really is more of a civil dispute until Haman arrives.
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Apr 5, 2024 06:52
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Onmi posted:It's truly, truly one of the games worst campaigns. Because you're also just often stuck waiting around for the Zeta plot to happen. I think part of it thought is that Threat of Axis V doesn't really like... adapt the events of Sentinel and other MSV's in the time frame. Just look at this mess. On the other hand, it and the OYW factions have been translated. Onmi posted:I mean there is a reason it's the Gryps "Conflict" rather than War, it really is more of a civil dispute until Haman arrives. I can't how imagine hectic it must have been to be concluding on one 50 episode series while setting up another to begin immediately afterwards, so I can't be too critical, but the wider conflict after Jamitov's death is a real blur, and slowing for an episode (maybe establishing why the Titans or even just Jerid were bothering to follow Scirocco's vision and clarifying that Quattro was CiC for the entire AEUG) would have been useful. Also show Kamille's newtype awareness of all the deaths wearing on him more and more so the mental break at the end is set up better. Ah well, no third chances. Arbite fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 07:56
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Arbite posted:Just look at this mess. Oh, I'm quite aware I did a narrative playthrough elsewhere of the Revil federation campaign, around... 200,000 words all around? It was a lot of fun, I've tossed around editing it from its current prose into long-form fanfiction but eh.
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Apr 5, 2024 08:07
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Onmi posted:Oh, I'm quite aware I did a narrative playthrough elsewhere of the Revil federation campaign, around... 200,000 words all around? It was a lot of fun, I've tossed around editing it from its current prose into long-form fanfiction but eh. Oh? Where was this? Did you save Cima?
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Apr 5, 2024 08:41
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Arbite posted:Oh? Where was this? Did you save Cima? Yes, I did the Cima event. It was on /m/. /m/ Has for the past... long while actually I don't recall how long it's been going, had a concurrent "/m/ plays Gihren's Greed" campaign run by different game masters. It was started by X, then Copy X took over, I did a filler campaign while Copy X was away. Right now the current campaign is a hybrid /m/sv and [BRIGHT] campaign which has been going on for what feels like years now... and also is loving bonkers.
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Apr 5, 2024 09:36
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https://twitter.com/JaAmfan/status/1775891229546574271?t=zouK8HBuZE-yjQ7odRE0bw&s=19 Timy Stark would have a Dendrobium just lying around yo fight the Hulk.
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Apr 5, 2024 13:01
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Arc Hammer posted:https://twitter.com/JaAmfan/status/1775891229546574271?t=zouK8HBuZE-yjQ7odRE0bw&s=19 Ah Marvel's Mangaverse line, whether they just like slammed a whole bunch of concepts in together. So like Spider-Man is both Naruto and Evangelion, and Wolverine has a laser claw for some reason and of course is Vegeta. 
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Apr 5, 2024 13:28
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I mean them tracing and copying stuff without getting why the originals worked is par on course when the main talent (and now Editor in Chief) passed himself off as being Japanese!
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Apr 5, 2024 15:12
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We had an LP of Threat of Axis V here years ago though it didn't quite finish the One Year War before the author ran out of steam: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3593171 Today's Yetee design is relevant to the thread: 
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Apr 6, 2024 16:52
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I still dream of the day a Gihren's Greed game gets an NA/SEA English localization. Or a western developer gets a license to make grand strategy Gundam.
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Apr 6, 2024 16:59
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Midjack posted:We had an LP of Threat of Axis V here years ago though it didn't quite finish the One Year War before the author ran out of steam: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3593171 ToAV is one of my favourite games I have... many MANY playthroughs, I've gotten to the point I'm starting to understand the gameplay. Which sounds silly but... no there is a certain level of madness and understanding. It's gone from "The federation holds out till they get MS" to understanding just how to use those numbers. Fly Mantha spam evolved into understanding the division between Mantha, Tin Cod and Type-61. I went from "How the hell do they expect you to take A Baoa Qu by Turn 24 for the best reward" to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9VDbyc74Xw Watching this guys videos and being BAFFLED by how easy he makes it look. Warmachine posted:I still dream of the day a Gihren's Greed game gets an NA/SEA English localization. Or a western developer gets a license to make grand strategy Gundam. Give me Total War: Gundam
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Apr 6, 2024 17:56
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Warmachine posted:I still dream of the day a Gihren's Greed game gets an NA/SEA English localization. Or a western developer gets a license to make grand strategy Gundam. They'd never make their money back. It's a fourth order niche market and it's been almost 15 years since the last game in the series came out.
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Apr 6, 2024 18:01
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Midjack posted:They'd never make their money back. It's a fourth order niche market and it's been almost 15 years since the last game in the series came out. Shin Gihren's Greed is such a sad game because I do get it, I see what they were going for. I didn't LIKE IT. But I saw what they were going for. They banked big on "What if we redid everything and also tried to sell a lot of DLC" But... nah.
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Apr 6, 2024 18:03
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Onmi posted:ToAV is one of my favourite games I have... many MANY playthroughs, I've gotten to the point I'm starting to understand the gameplay. Which sounds silly but... no there is a certain level of madness and understanding. That's a challenge with any licensed strategy game; there's always a temptation to play the story you know the way you think it goes, and some games go well out of their way to make that approach work. GG in particular suffers from relatively few English speakers fully reading the games so there's a lot of folk wisdom about how the games are "supposed" to work and those assumptions seem to be rarely challenged. Sounds like you've more fully engaged with the game and understand the systems much better than most, well done!
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Apr 6, 2024 18:09
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Any guesses if something will be announced at the Gundam Series 45th Anniversary Special Distribution event happening tomorrow? Toru Furuya, Tomokazu Seki and Kana Ichinose are gonna attend. It's the 30th anniversary of G Gundam and some people have been speculating that they might talk about an Allenby spinoff that was tossed around as a possible 90s OVA but never got made.
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Apr 6, 2024 18:21
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