|
Eclipse on Monday, east coast earthquake today: the omens are inauspicious
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 15:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 12:26 |
|
|
zoux posted:Eclipse on Monday, east coast earthquake today: the omens are inauspicious Just need a comet, hope you've got the admin saved to stab up!
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 15:58
|
|
|
Stringent posted:I've lived in Tokyo since 2005. 4.8 wouldn't even wake me up. Yeah, anything under 5 doesn't count. G1mby posted:Just need a comet, hope you've got the admin saved to stab up! https://www.space.com/horned-comet-visible-total-solar-eclipse quote:An unusual "horned" comet is now visible in the night sky and may even make a rare appearance during the total solar eclipse on April 8, 2024.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 15:58
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:A few people were commenting on 'the problem with American democracy', talking about money in campaigns, AIPAC and the like. But it really seems like the actual problem with US democracy is that the US population is mostly Nazis. Even in the deep blue regions, the instant Dem voters see an illegal immigrant or a homeless person or get told they don't have absolute authority over schoolwork, they slam hard-right and start heiling. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the US population is "mostly Nazis", but racism and xenophobia has always been a problem, and one that often cuts across political and ideological lines. It's not even unique to the US; we're seeing the rise of far-right populist movements motivated by racism and opposition to racism all over the world.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:01
|
|
|
Byzantine posted:A few people were commenting on 'the problem with American democracy', talking about money in campaigns, AIPAC and the like. But it really seems like the actual problem with US democracy is that the US population is mostly Nazis. Even in the deep blue regions, the instant Dem voters see an illegal immigrant or a homeless person or get told they don't have absolute authority over schoolwork, they slam hard-right and start heiling. Think this is the point where the word Nazi has lost all meaning.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:05
|
|
|
Tnega posted:The issue I am having from my perspective, is that my core belief/point, that the legal privilege of striking is a fundamental human right, and that posters find that inconvenient to argue directly against, so we end up arguing in circles over whether 'its not so bad' that said human right was violated. The most obvious response to this in my mind is that there are certain jobs that necessarily require you to forfeit those rights. If you don't want to do that, you are disqualified from taking those jobs. We can argue over whether railroad and other logistics workers fall into that category, but the government has decided that they do via laws already passed. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that soldiers have a right to strike during war, or that firefighters have the right to walk away from a burning building because of a pay dispute, or that ER surgeons can just say they aren't pulling a bullet out of your torso today.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:19
|
|
|
KillHour posted:The most obvious response to this in my mind is that there are certain jobs that necessarily require you to forfeit those rights. If you don't want to do that, you are disqualified from taking those jobs. We can argue over whether railroad and other logistics workers fall into that category, but the government has decided that they do via laws already passed. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that soldiers have a right to strike during war, or that firefighters have the right to walk away from a burning building because of a pay dispute, or that ER surgeons can just say they aren't pulling a bullet out of your torso today. Creating different tiers of fundamental human rights assigned and connected to your productive function in society? Interesting idea, wonder if it’s been tried before. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:30
|
|
|
SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Creating different tiers of fundamental human rights assigned and connected to your productive function in society? Interesting idea, wonder if it’s been tried before. You can choose not to work in those jobs. This isn't feudalism. If enough people decide not to do that job, they'll change it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:34
|
|
|
KillHour posted:The most obvious response to this in my mind is that there are certain jobs that necessarily require you to forfeit those rights. If you don't want to do that, you are disqualified from taking those jobs. We can argue over whether railroad and other logistics workers fall into that category, but the government has decided that they do via laws already passed. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that soldiers have a right to strike during war, or that firefighters have the right to walk away from a burning building because of a pay dispute, or that ER surgeons can just say they aren't pulling a bullet out of your torso today. The problem with this reasoning is that every job is in some sense "essential" or nobody would be paid to do it; this reasoning is effectively a negation of the right to strike whenver workers have leverage. Soldiers have frequently gone on strike, and doctors have also recently in the UK, mostly because they weren't being paid enough to live on. Jesus III posted:You can choose not to work in those jobs. This isn't feudalism. If enough people decide not to do that job, they'll change it. I believe what they're doing in the UK is essentially just declaring that nurses are just as good as doctors now so fewer people get to see doctors, deal with it. Removing worker's leverage is a short term solution not a long term solution. It doesn't force positive change, it just forces change. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Apr 5, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:36
|
|
|
Ignore wrong thread
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:37
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:The problem with this reasoning is that every job is in some sense "essential" or nobody would be paid to do it; this reasoning is effectively a negation of the right to strike whenver workers have leverage. Soldiers have frequently gone on strike, and doctors have also recently in the UK, mostly because they weren't being paid enough to live on. US soldiers and doctors can't form unions. Soldiers to keep communism out of the army, and because the US has historically had big problems with veterans protesting over lack of adequate pay/benefits after service. Doctors because they thought they would form a guild and fixed prices (instead they formed legally not a guild and constrained the supply of doctors, which caused prices to rise). Both of these suck, and the latter is really outdated now that private practice is being gobbled up by statewide franchises who fix prices internally and narrow the market to an oligopoly that naturally tends to fix prices.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:45
|
|
|
Jesus III posted:You can choose not to work in those jobs. This isn't feudalism. If enough people decide not to do that job, they'll change it. But they won't. As seen they'll go "those jobs need doing" and give it to people in prison. Fire fighters being a very well documented one. Also yeah, I'd prefer it if places could form unions, as long as they have a sense of solidarity across all of them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 16:47
|
|
|
The kind of firefighting that prisoners and public works programs do is mostly unskilled labor. In any case yes we do need firefighters. It's terrible ground to fight this argument on. If you put principle vs a city burned to ashes, principle loses every time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:07
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:The kind of firefighting that prisoners and public works programs do is mostly unskilled labor. In any case yes we do need firefighters. It's terrible ground to fight this argument on. If you put principle vs a city burned to ashes, principle loses every time. Does any other nation state have it where Fire fighter unions cause this? Or are you just pulling it out of the same just so story logic as Libertarians? Also, "unskilled"? There are two forms of unskilled labour and they are the police and CEO's. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Apr 5, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:11
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Does any other nation state have it where Fire fighter unions cause this? Or are you just pulling it out of the same just so story logic as Libertarians? It is an especially ridiculous notion that firefighting prisoners are unskilled. There are laws in place that prevent them from transferring their acquired skills. This would be a nonissue if firefighting prisoners were unskilled. Helping Inmate Firefighters Go From Jailhouse To Firehouse - Law360 www.law360.com posted:…
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:18
|
|
|
No, USA isn't alone in forbidding firefighter strikes. The prison labour aspect and abuse might be.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:21
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:But they won't. As seen they'll go "those jobs need doing" and give it to people in prison. Fire fighters being a very well documented one. Don't get me started on firemen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:22
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Does any other nation state have it where Fire fighter unions cause this? Or are you just pulling it out of the same just so story logic as Libertarians? Do other nations allow fire fighters to strike in the middle of putting out active fires?
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:27
|
|
|
https://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/10/08/130436382/they-didn-t-pay-the-fee-firefighters-watch-tennessee-family-s-house-burn I'm not sure how this all ties into the discussion but its my favorite story of firefighting in America. It's basically a microcosm of our country, from libertarianism to taxation to regulation to capitalism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:32
|
|
|
Zachack posted:Do other nations allow fire fighters to strike in the middle of putting out active fires? I don't think this is a scenario they actually happens. It's more like you declare a strike that starts on a specific date and then you just don't show up, so they make do with whomever else they can find. Nobody is walking away with foam still dripping off them. Similarly with doctors, it's not like you're in the middle of getting the tumor out and then "oh! It's time to strike! What a surprise!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:32
|
|
|
Zachack posted:Do other nations allow fire fighters to strike in the middle of putting out active fires? Does that prevent unions of them? Because here it seems like "you can't all strike at the same time" is considered the same as "you can't strike". There are firefighter unions here and they should be allowed to go on strike, same as Doctors, nurses and, yeah I'd say the army should be able too as well. "You can't do that it'll endanger people" well then you should give the people who matter and are providing a service better pay and conditions shouldn't you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:32
|
|
|
What makes you think there's no firefighters unions in the US? There definitely are. There was a big firefighter strike in the UK in the 70s. The army immediately covered the firefighting gap, and 'striking' firefighters repeatedly answered emergency calls - which in most jobs would be called strike breaking and scabbing and breaking the picket line. A modern society cannot tolerate an interruption in firefighting services, beyond very limited contexts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:33
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:The kind of firefighting that prisoners and public works programs do is mostly unskilled labor. In any case yes we do need firefighters. It's terrible ground to fight this argument on. If you put principle vs a city burned to ashes, principle loses every time. Wouldn't a better way to recruit firefighters be to just pay firefighters a good wage? Everybody is all "free market!" until it suddenly means paying workers a decent wage edit: somehow it's ok for the hospital to charge me a trillion dollars for heart surgery but not ok for the doctors to ask the hospital to pay them a fair wage for performing said surgery Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Apr 5, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:33
|
|
|
koolkal posted:https://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/10/08/130436382/they-didn-t-pay-the-fee-firefighters-watch-tennessee-family-s-house-burn There is so much wrong with that article, I wasn't sure if it was an April's fools post from 2010 or some other form of satire.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:36
|
|
|
Dude, full time firefighters get paid like 100k (after overtime) a year in DFW. There really isn't a shortage of them except in the West, and that's due to the incredible increase in forest fires from climate change.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:37
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Wouldn't a better way to recruit firefighters be to just pay firefighters a good wage? We have really screwed up ideas about how society works. If every single C-Suite exec at Starbucks was raptured tomorrow, Starbucks could still operate, indefinitely, and possibly as a more efficient, better company. If every single Starbucks barista was raptured tomorrow, we would be facing a potential societal collapse. I joke, but only a little. This is a very common attitude among higher paid/higher status workers; people with bullshit jobs (like mine!) cannot conceive of how unimportant they are in the grand scheme of things, and how absolutely essential the people they look down on are. If firefighters matter, pay them like they do and the problem sorts itself out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:39
|
|
|
This whole conversation seems to ignore the fact that fundamental human rights get restrictions placed on them for the communal good all the time. Yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. It seems like the debate should be over whether railroad workers should fall under the emergency provisions Biden used, not whether every union should be able to theoretically go on strike at any moment.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:41
|
|
|
Firefighter wages are highly, highly context and location dependent. Firefighters for decent sized cities can get paid really well, but that's not the entire country. Anywhere not a city? It's a more than fair shot they get paid absolutely nothing and it's all volunteer work, or if they do get paid it's absolute poo poo wages that have to be made up for by having another job and then doing firefighter stuff on-call. I saw this for years while I was working as an EMT.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:42
|
|
|
Jesus III posted:Dude, full time firefighters get paid like 100k (after overtime) a year in DFW. There really isn't a shortage of them except in the West, and that's due to the incredible increase in forest fires from climate change. That's not really a lot when you consider the highly elevated health risks such as cancer from all the chemicals and smoke. These lead to medical fees forcing many firefighters to file bankruptcy. FAQ - Firefighter Cancer Support Network www.firefightercancersupport.org posted:### What are some of the latest statistics related to cancer in the fire service? Papercut posted:This whole conversation seems to ignore the fact that fundamental human rights get restrictions placed on them for the communal good all the time. Yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. It seems like the debate should be over whether railroad workers should fall under the emergency provisions Biden used, not whether every union should be able to theoretically go on strike at any moment. Interesting tidbit about that phrase, it became a widely repeated cliche with this opinion by the Supreme Court, which was used to prosecute socialists for distributing anti-war flyers: Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919) supreme.justia.com posted:Evidence held sufficient to connect the defendants with the mailing of printed circulars in pursuance of a conspiracy to obstruct the recruiting and enlistment service, contrary to the Espionage Act of June 15, 1917. P 249 U. S. 49. mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 5, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:42
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:What makes you think there's no firefighters unions in the US? There definitely are. Well that is good at least, but from the way it was being written upthread I assumed that "you can't just leave" was part of it. The major thing I was wanting to point to was "You should be allowed to strike". If your operation is so vital for the continual functioning of society maybe some more things should be put in place to mean you don't have to go on strike.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:43
|
|
|
Jesus III posted:Dude, full time firefighters get paid like 100k (after overtime) a year in DFW. There really isn't a shortage of them except in the West, and that's due to the incredible increase in forest fires from climate change. Sounds like there's a pretty high market demand for firefighters in the West! Maybe if there were some sort of organized body of firefighters which could recruit and train new firefighters and help them negotiate a wage . . . what would we call that. . . Papercut posted:This whole conversation seems to ignore the fact that fundamental human rights get restrictions placed on them for the communal good all the time. Y Sure, but then there are generally countervailing protections put in place. If you're going to take away the right to strike you better be making drat sure people in that profession never *need* to strike. And if you've done that properly, then . . . you don't need to remove the right to strike, because they won't want to use it. We don't have striking soldiers in America any more not because groups of striking soldiers got broken up (though they did, historically, see: Bonus Army) but because we put in place strong veteran's benefits programs. If you have the carrot you don't need the stick, and if you use the stick you have a moral duty to implement the carrot, so you might as well go whole carrot and forego the stick entirely. Said another way: nobody strikes casually. If you have workers in a high demand profession that's societally important, and they're talking about striking, they probably have a really good reason! Try listening to what they want and maybe paying them so they don't *want* to strike! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Apr 5, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:47
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:That's not really a lot when you consider the highly elevated health risks such as cancer from all the chemicals and smoke. These lead to medical fees forcing many firefighters to file bankruptcy. Whether or not being a firefighter is dangerous wasn't the argument. Being a full time firefighter is a great union job in most towns that have paid fire departments with amazing benefits that people fight to get.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:49
|
|
|
bird food bathtub posted:Firefighter wages are highly, highly context and location dependent. Firefighters for decent sized cities can get paid really well, but that's not the entire country. Anywhere not a city? It's a more than fair shot they get paid absolutely nothing and it's all volunteer work, or if they do get paid it's absolute poo poo wages that have to be made up for by having another job and then doing firefighter stuff on-call. I saw this for years while I was working as an EMT. I have always wanted to look at situations like this and figure out how to use regulation to put rich people at the mercy of the same set of services poor people are. Private security, for instance, should probably be illegal. Private firefighters obviously, private legal defense, all that. You don’t really have a society if you make the parts that are supposed to be public services totally poo poo and allow the wealthy to buy a premium version so they don’t care what the rest of us have to deal with. You shouldn’t be able to opt out of the social contract that way.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:50
|
|
|
Jesus III posted:Whether or not being a firefighter is dangerous wasn't the argument. Being a full time firefighter is a great union job in most towns that have paid fire departments with amazing benefits that people fight to get. Yeah, I'm not saying they shouldn't organize for what is a higher than average salary. They're still really undervalued especially for the risks they face and it really sucks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:53
|
|
|
This is all somewhat my lived experience, as a health care professional (pharmacy) in an industry controlled by major corporations with intolerable working conditions. It is/was a major pressing concern- how do I balance the terrible working conditions that don't allow sufficient care and attention be paid to individual patients, resulting in the long term death and harm by a thousand cuts for my patients (let alone my personal mental health and well being) vs. the short-term discrete harm that would be caused by shutting up shop and saying "No drugs for the next week." Its not an easy calculus, and any negotiation is going to be stacked against the worker because only one side gives a poo poo about the harm the whole thing is causing to 3rd-parties. My ideal solution would be a regulatory agency (Board in my case) stepping in to address conditions without requiring any stoppage. There have been nibbles around this in a couple states, but its probably a pipe dream due to regulatory capture or general regulator toothlessness in most states. Absent the above, union action and strikes is the unfortunate necessity. I don't like it, but its better than nothing. And I would be super happy to have the government step in to take care of negotiation for me. This is dependent on results of course, but the same thing can be said of union strikes and negotiators. For what its worth, I did quit as recognition of it being the only tool I had to signal things were not acceptable. Due to pharmacists, in general, and pharmacists in my sector of pharmacy, specifically, being loving idiots who don't think they need unions, there wasn't/isn't currently an option there. But as long as I have ways to not starve, I wouldn't go back without a union in place. And I know even this, again, worsens outcomes for patients; at least one shop closed due to lack of people willing to staff it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:56
|
|
|
Funny. Firefighting and police unions are A-Ok, but god forbid autoworkers don't want to get stomped on.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:57
|
|
|
Papercut posted:This whole conversation seems to ignore the fact that fundamental human rights get restrictions placed on them for the communal good all the time. Yelling fire in a crowded theater, etc. That wasn't the actual rule a century ago, and it was essentially overturned by Brandenburg four decades later anyway.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:57
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:That's not really a lot when you consider the highly elevated health risks such as cancer from all the chemicals and smoke. These lead to medical fees forcing many firefighters to file bankruptcy. There is a generational element and geographical variation on this. Back when I was doing my marine firefighting training and hazardous materials /firefighting STCW class it was something the professor “dirty” (a NYC firefighter) talked about at length. There was a culture of “toughness” about tolerating smoke without respirator or SCBA equipment. He very clearly told us this was extremely stupid, and that it had caused real harm to his lungs, and to “wear our loving PPE.” That was followed by a story of how as a young man he lived above a dry cleaners, and would huff carboner the brand name of a dry cleaning chemical. He equated not wearing PPE as equally stupid to huffing Carboner. Anyway the point, yeah it’s almost as bad as working product tankers. But I think some of it was cultural and some departments have made big efforts to change that culture. So it’ll be interesting to see if that rate drops or holds steady in younger firefighters.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 17:59
|
|
|
mawarannahr posted:Yeah, I'm not saying they shouldn't organize for what is a higher than average salary. They're still really undervalued especially for the risks they face and it really sucks. They get paid more than teachers, fight less than one fire a month and have outstanding benefits, I'm not crying for them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 18:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 12:26 |
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:There is a generational element and geographical variation on this. Back when I was doing my marine firefighting training and hazardous materials /firefighting STCW class it was something the professor “dirty” (a NYC firefighter) talked about at length. There was a culture of “toughness” about tolerating smoke without respirator or SCBA equipment. He very clearly told us this was extremely stupid, and that it had caused real harm to his lungs, and to “wear our loving PPE.” There's a fascinating article I read a couple years ago about fluorine foam and the culture around using it The New Foam www.nfpa.org posted:ON THE MANTLE IN HIS HOME OFFICE, beside antique fire alarm boxes, model fire trucks, and old fire helmets, Jeremy Souza once kept a collection of slightly stranger mementos: about a dozen jars filled with various amber liquids. Jesus III posted:They get paid more than teachers, fight less than one fire a month and have outstanding benefits, I'm not crying for them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 5, 2024 18:05
|
|