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disposablewords posted:Look, you only enjoy Thing I Don't Like because you're doing it with friends and that's what makes you think it's good. No, Thing I Do Like is clearly not subject to the same effects.
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Apr 4, 2024 11:12
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Splicer posted:Dungeons and Dragons is the baseball of RPGs. This should answer all your questions. Young men think about it to stave off ejaculation?
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Apr 4, 2024 11:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:I was watching a video series about the Operational Combat System, and one of the points made by the narrator was that you're not really supposed to read the rulebook from front-to-back to learn the game. Fragged Empire 1E did this, the book was written by someone with a strong grasp of technical writing and designed to function primarily as a reference tool, it was wonderful, and everyone hated it to the point where 2E leaned (at least somewhat) more in the direction of traditional layout. 
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Apr 4, 2024 11:43
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Fragged Empire 1E did this, the book was written by someone with a strong grasp of technical writing and designed to function primarily as a reference tool, it was wonderful, and everyone hated it to the point where 2E leaned (at least somewhat) more in the direction of traditional layout. Yeah, I think TTRPGs have this expectation that the book is going to be a pleasing, fun romp to flip through so that kind of procedurality runs against it. It's a shame, really, and a place where grog wargames are a step up from TTRPGs in their writing.
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Apr 4, 2024 14:51
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, I think TTRPGs have this expectation that the book is going to be a pleasing, fun romp to flip through so that kind of procedurality runs against it. It's a shame, really, and a place where grog wargames are a step up from TTRPGs in their writing. Basically the same concept as FAQ and Errata sheets but proactive rather than reactive.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:13
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3 Action Economist posted:Young men think about it to stave off ejaculation? Y-yeah, stave it off...
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Apr 4, 2024 15:34
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sasha_d3ath posted:Y-yeah, stave it off...
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Apr 4, 2024 15:41
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Splicer posted:What's weird is that FFG of all people solved this for board games. You have the fun learn to play book, and a separate rules reference that's got no pictures and takes priority for all rules questions, including a bunch of complicated edge cases flat not in the fun read-and-play book. Obviously printing a physical RPG-sized book that basically contains everything printed twice is not an option, and WotC is terrified of piracy, but if you already have buying the PDF as an option then each print or online copy also coming with a companion technical write style PDF seems like a good compromise? GMT's style has historically been to have two rulebooks- a rulebook that's a technically written wargame set of rules, and then a playbook that has all the game commentary, scenarios, historical notes, designer notes, etc.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:42
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Panzeh posted:GMT's style has historically been to have two rulebooks- a rulebook that's a technically written wargame set of rules, and then a playbook that has all the game commentary, scenarios, historical notes, designer notes, etc.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:45
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Splicer posted:That makes a lot more sense than FFG inventing the concept. Good to know! Yeah i think there was probably some cross-pollination into FFG's process.
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Apr 4, 2024 15:57
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Splicer posted:What's weird is that FFG of all people solved this for board games. You have the fun learn to play book, and a separate rules reference that's got no pictures and takes priority for all rules questions, including a bunch of complicated edge cases flat not in the fun read-and-play book. Obviously printing a physical RPG-sized book that basically contains everything printed twice is not an option, and WotC is terrified of piracy, but if you already have buying the PDF as an option then each print or online copy also coming with a companion technical write style PDF seems like a good compromise?
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Apr 4, 2024 17:43
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I've always thought that a good approach would be a text that you read once to get the idea, and an online system reference doc that is hyperlinked, comprehensive, updatable whenever you have an errata to do, and contains none of your copyrighted fiction and flavor. Putting on my technical writer hat for a second: Actually the way people learn technical information is complicated and there isn't a one-size-fits-all. There are many different people with different learning styles and approaches and they're looking at your rulebooks with different reasons and goals in mind. It is astonishingly difficult to give everyone what they want and need, period, let alone do it in a single text. Some people just want an answer to a single question. Some want to know the why and context of that detail. Some people want to become an expert in some system or area. Some want to get an overview of a thing so they can make a high-level decision about it. Some people learn better with a video, some prefer an overview with indexed links to details, some want all the details in one place, some people need visual aides, some people find those distracting, some folks can only grasp what's going on if there's examples, some folks find examples distracting or even confusing. Some people need the same information written out in more than one way, some can quickly infer what's meant. And that's not even getting into accessibility challenges. Ideal documentation is available to screen readers, graphics have alternate descriptions that completely describe what the graphic is intended to convey, and also have high contrast and do not encode information via color that isn't also available elsewhere, is written for ease of translation by avoiding idioms and nonstandard construction, and so on. The goal for an RPG has to be more modest than the goal for a multi-billion-dollar software company. So as a publisher you have to make a lot of hard choices. Or just do the default, which is also making a choice, but at least it's a choice that's been more or less consistently approved by the customers. Despite preferring robust rules myself, I kind of have a lot of sympathy for fans who are expecting a fluffy toilet read and weren't pleased with an extremely well built reference document: their goal was entertainment in addition to learning a system, and if they more heavily favor the entertainment factor, they're not getting what they wanted. If you're making a game and have unlimited budget, I encourage you to produce multiple versions and approaches to your ruleset and setting etc. If you have limited resources and need to just make one book, it probably should default to the traditional approach of intermixing attractive graphics and evocative prose about your setting and flavor with clear, brief explanations of the rules. Insert index markers and/or crosslinks to key rule terms and systems, include a few examples especially where rules interactions are complicated, and be ready to produce and release an online FAQ and errata after you publish. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Apr 4, 2024 |
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Apr 4, 2024 17:57
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Glazius posted:Maps are an excellent way of keeping track of who's gone where and who's locked in combat with who, but because there's no requirement for them to have any particular matching dimensions you could just use background shots from the show and slice the image up appropriately. Yeah, that’s kind of what I’m leaning towards, with maybe a quick doodle in Paint if or when I have to illustrate who and what’s where. And I’m already well aware of the potential slowdowns with PbP from the ongoing Lancer campaign I’m playing in (…like that time I spent a good 15 minutes trying to figure out the best way to climb up a hill and still provide covering fire before I realized that I could have just continued down the path I was already on and been in a way better position)
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Apr 4, 2024 18:17
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, I think TTRPGs have this expectation that the book is going to be a pleasing, fun romp to flip through so that kind of procedurality runs against it. It's a shame, really, and a place where grog wargames are a step up from TTRPGs in their writing. Fragged was written well as a reference document to use in play, sure, but it made it much worse as a teaching document. It constantly referred to concepts and rules that had not yet been introduced and wouldn't be introduced for like 20 more pages with no explanation. So you constantly were trying to understand half a system while maintaining multiple mental bookmarks for spaces you knew had been left blank. If I understand a system we'll enough, I won't need to look up rules during play very often! The book should teach me the game. Give me an abridged rules reference separately - as a handout or at the end of each chapter or whatever. But also, I want to enjoy reading an RPG rulebook, actually. I don't want it to be just a technical manual or even just a teaching document. These things are not like a 7-page rulebook from GMT games: RPGs are hundreds of pages long! If they are boring, I won't read them!
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Apr 4, 2024 18:18
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There are also systems where the rules don't actually exist shorn of the flavor, like the Charmset from Exalted: the Sidereals where there really is no way to explain what Embracing Life Method does other than saying "you plant a Christmas tree, and then spirits leave gifts under it, 1d4+1 of which will be important clues to the mystery you're trying to solve."
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Apr 4, 2024 18:27
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I'm trying to think of a game whose rules I really enjoyed reading because they were written in a "fun" style rather than a technical document. I hated the "in-character" segments of Eclipse Phase because they were just a normal RPG book explanation with a thin layer of annoying character voice clumsily draped overtop. I can't recall my initial read of Unknown Armies 3e objectively because repeatedly digging through the author's fluff and flab to find mechanical information has retroactively soured me on Stolze's prose. Closest has to be Puppetland. It helps that the rules of Puppetland are more like rules for an improv sketch than a normal RPG, where the use of tone/language are a huge part of the game. It forced me to reevaluate John Tynes. Based on his work with Delta Green I thought of him as a great setting author but poor mechanical designer, and I think I was wrong about that.
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Apr 4, 2024 19:17
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Rand Brittain posted:There are also systems where the rules don't actually exist shorn of the flavor, like the Charmset from Exalted: the Sidereals where there really is no way to explain what Embracing Life Method does other than saying "you plant a Christmas tree, and then spirits leave gifts under it, 1d4+1 of which will be important clues to the mystery you're trying to solve." "you plant a Christmas tree, and then spirits leave gifts under it, 1d4+1 of which will be important clues to the mystery you're trying to solve." System: Double 9s on an extended Investigation roll whose time interval is at least one day long.
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Apr 4, 2024 20:19
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mellonbread posted:I'm trying to think of a game whose rules I really enjoyed reading because they were written in a "fun" style rather than a technical document. I hated the "in-character" segments of Eclipse Phase because they were just a normal RPG book explanation with a thin layer of annoying character voice clumsily draped overtop. I can't recall my initial read of Unknown Armies 3e objectively because repeatedly digging through the author's fluff and flab to find mechanical information has retroactively soured me on Stolze's prose.
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Apr 4, 2024 21:13
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Jimbozig posted:I don't want it to be just a technical manual or even just a teaching document. These things are not like a 7-page rulebook from GMT games: RPGs are hundreds of pages long! If they are boring, I won't read them! If they were written like dense technical documents, they probably wouldn't be a several hundred pages long in the first place. They might still be pretty long, but one thing that can really make rules sprawl in length is not writing them like dense technical texts. You could probably get rid of a lot of extraneous text if instead of explaining what Accounting is you just say it's a skill that exists and then reference it as a number that affects some kind of situation in the rules describing that kind of situation.
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Apr 4, 2024 22:44
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Root is the gold standard I go to for guidance on instructions.
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Apr 4, 2024 22:48
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My boss gave me a $100 gift card for helping out at work. Which, would normally be annoying in the sense "you gave me this instead of a raise?", but I just got a raise last month so this is pretty loving sweet. AND it came the Wednesday before a convention in my area. I am going to buy so many books.
Covok fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 00:27
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PuttyKnife posted:Root is the gold standard I go to for guidance on instructions. The Root RPG? Or are you talking about board game rules? I haven't read the RPG, but I found the boardgame's rules document to be very good at teaching and pretty good as a reference. There were a few times I tried to find something in play and struggled, but it's been long enough now that I don't remember what they were. Edit: for RPGs, I liked how Burning Wheel had an explanation of the rules in long form that was good for teaching and helped you understand the reason why the rules are the way they are and the philosophy of play the game uses, and then had a quick bullet point summary at the end of the chapter. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 5, 2024 |
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Apr 5, 2024 01:41
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I forget root released as an rpg now. Yeah, the board game.
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Apr 5, 2024 01:59
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PuttyKnife posted:Root is the gold standard I go to for guidance on instructions. Great Western Trail is the brown standard for guidance on instructions. Seriously, aside from instructions missing key play concepts, including conflicting rules, and the like -- in other words, only considering rulebooks that actually contain all the correct rules for the game in question -- is there a rulebook worse than GWT? Don't even come at me with ASL, either. Sure, you might have six acronym-laden pages solely covering the Final Defensive Fire subphase, but the rules are clear, numbered, and cover every circumstance, including what happens when you roll a 12 when FDFing with a flamethrower against mounted cavalry in a light fog, and best of all, you can actually find these rules in the rulebook.
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Apr 5, 2024 02:38
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There's definitely been problems when RPG books are made more for being fun to read than usable to run a game, but it absolutely is possible to overcorrect, yeah. Fragged Empire I was really interested in but I couldn't make heads or tails of what I was supposed to actually do with. Figures the problem when nerds tend to be either theatre kids or engineer brained.
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Apr 5, 2024 03:20
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players never read the rulebook anyways, just give me the engineer-brained version and i'll teach 
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Apr 5, 2024 13:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:players never read the rulebook anyways, just give me the engineer-brained version and i'll teach I wish. Any system where there are numbers to be crunched there are those that love to crunch numbers.
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Apr 5, 2024 14:28
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:players never read the rulebook anyways, just give me the engineer-brained version and i'll teach lol yep
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Apr 5, 2024 14:31
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Ghost Leviathan posted:There's definitely been problems when RPG books are made more for being fun to read than usable to run a game, but it absolutely is possible to overcorrect, yeah. Fragged Empire I was really interested in but I couldn't make heads or tails of what I was supposed to actually do with. I vaguely remember someone from WotC saying that most buyers of books aren't DMs so they've started writing adventures as a sort of narrative. To the point that dramatic twists and such are obfuscated from the GM until the appropriate moment in the narrative. To the point that the GM needs to read well in advance to avoid having a primary secret antagonist being killed before they'll have actually accomplished the events that drive the plot forward. This is obviously anecdotal because I can't remember what specific adventure it might've been. But some of the stuff I have flipped through really does feel like it's trying to tell a story rather than present the tools to run a campaign.
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Apr 5, 2024 14:45
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As I learned last night, the Apiary rulebook does a great job of making the game sound a lot more complicated than it actually is. It's not badly written, but the layout is sometimes actively working against the text.
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Apr 5, 2024 16:37
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Leperflesh posted:I've always thought that a good approach would be a text that you read once to get the idea, and an online system reference doc that is hyperlinked, comprehensive, updatable whenever you have an errata to do, and contains none of your copyrighted fiction and flavor. Underground had highlighted callouts with page references to locations in the book for clarifications/examples. So di Monte Cook's Ptolus boat anchor. The digital version of Ptolus had them as clickable links in the pdf too.
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Apr 5, 2024 19:29
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im going to write an rpg book that's a series of numbered Patterns, grouped in sections by scope, from broadest to most specific each pattern will start with a problem statement, followed by a procedure or package of rules which addresses the problem written in bold, then further explanation of the rationale and details, and finally suggestions of which other patterns it can most directly connect to or extend. ...i started writing this post to make a joke but now ive interested myself.
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Apr 6, 2024 00:15
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Doc Hawkins posted:im going to write an rpg book that's a series of numbered Patterns, grouped in sections by scope, from broadest to most specific You’re rewriting Everway? I thought they just did that.
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Apr 6, 2024 01:41
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Doc Hawkins posted:im going to write an rpg book that's a series of numbered Patterns, grouped in sections by scope, from broadest to most specific i do not know enough about this to say much of value and haven't had a chance to read the document yet but my partner was just telling me about something that sounds like it may be drawing on the same stuff? Their site is down but the PDF is easy enough to find if you just search larp pattern language.
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Apr 6, 2024 01:41
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i searched for that and found something else as wellquote:Currently, barriers to access are high for new or inexperienced designers in the fields so its safe to say that the approach has been given serious consideration by others. though speaking as a software developer, do NOT follow in our footsteps to understand the nature and uses of Pattern Languages, please go directly to the source: Christopher Alexander's work on architecture and urban design. although he also near the end of his life had moved to calling for a series of Procedures, where you start by getting a feel for what you're going to be building on, and carefully adding new things without damaging the whole. and this all did remind me of some of Vincent Baker's posts saying that the game starts with friends imagining stuff together and the rules are added on top of that to make them imagine things that none of them wanted to.
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Apr 6, 2024 02:19
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I have been running games for 40 years. Tonight I kicked a player out of a group for the first time. They weren't getting the experience out of it that they wanted, and decided to take it out on me. So I'm disheartened and disappointed. But ultimately I just didn't have the energy anymore to play "rpg counselor" for them after every session.
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Apr 6, 2024 04:50
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dwarf74 posted:I have been running games for 40 years. Tonight I kicked a player out of a group for the first time. I've had something similar going on. I'm likely next up to run something, and I'm not hugely looking forward to making clear that the player isn't going to be welcomed back once the next game starts. There comes a point there are just too many meltdowns.
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Apr 6, 2024 07:44
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dwarf74 posted:I have been running games for 40 years. Tonight I kicked a player out of a group for the first time. If you're more just sad then yeah that sucks and I'm genuinely sorry that happened. Was it a long term player / social group member or just some online rando? I ran a game semi-recently with a bit of a tone mismatch between me and one of the players and I did not handle it well. Genuinely disappointed in myself.
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Apr 6, 2024 11:39
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We ended up having to boot a player in the twilight 2000 game for like, aggressively not getting it and we're probably going to do the same for another guy soonish.
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Apr 6, 2024 14:42
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Splicer posted:If you're in the mood later to feed the ghouls with the cat piss details then as a cat piss loving ghoul I'd love to hear more. One of the earlier sessions, E got frustrated with the party wanting to thoroughly explore the upper grounds of a temple (as you do) and headed straight towards the temple. The door was, unsurprisingly, locked. This upset him. He bailed on the evening - I had no idea he left until I tried to let him know about stuff - and that night he kind of went off on me for it. This was a new group, and I knew it wasn't perfect that night, so I spent an hour and a half that night going over the way things often go, that it's a group activity with a big group, etc. It was honestly pretty exhausting, and I was upset about the bail but tried not to make it an issue. Next session went better, but it was clear he wanted to have a solo adventure, because he was off on his own half of the lower temple. This worked out fine for the dungeon. Session after that - like two weeks ago - he bails about an hour in, again without notice, because while he was again off on his own doing his own solo adventure, the other wizard in the party got a chance for wizard stuff. (This made sense because this wizard had participated in the most recent battle, while E's wizard wandered off, and wasn't around when a certain scroll was discovered.) He went off angrily on another player in private messages about this. I let him know I wasn't cool with random bails like this - that this was a totally normal session, everyone gets spotlight time, and that if it was frustrating, I don't see it changing. He skipped last week, and I thought we were done. I thought that was probably for the best but didn't kick him at this point. Then last night, over another hour and a half, he went from being mostly mad at the other players to blaming me for it all. It was exhausting, and I let him know I simply don't have the emotional energy for this kind of involved - for lack of a better term - rpg counseling session after every game. He ended up getting very angry and insulting and I just told him we're done. Booted him from the game and server. I don't think I'm blameless here or anything, but I don't think I have wherewithal to be scolded every time he gets frustrated with the other players or the adventure. I don't have time for that. I've barely interacted with him in the 25 years since college. We had hardly been in touch. Not a complete online rando but kinda the next thing to it. dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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