|
Plenty of men are capable of producing and reinforcing lovely ideas about women without the need for social media. I don't think you need to blame some novel external force for it.
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 19:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 18:03 |
|
|
Phlegmish posted:As I said, I think it's both. You know, these alienating structural factors that have been mentioned, but also things like being confronted with feminist takes on Twitter and getting really outraged as a result, because they lack the context to understand why those takes are being posted, or they simply disagree with that view of social reality. Most of us would lend some weight to the impact of the former while dismissing the latter as culture war nonsense, but to these people, the social media takes are just another alienating factor, another sign that society is heading in the wrong direction and that they're being left behind. It's one big package to them, and that does make it difficult to address their concerns. Doesn't help that a lot of 'feminist' takes on Twitter, aren't. Or they're deliberately inflammatory, or they're someone venting to their online friends and it gets leaked, or it's an insane person yelling about how chili is ableist. There's no amount of words about privilege or theory or context that's going to make 'no see, it's okay for her to have KAM in bio' sound like anything but 'we changed the rules so we can say whatever we want but you can't' to someone not already on board. I don't know how to fix it. Obviously anybody suggesting that minorities be cut loose to appease the fash should be beaten with sticks (and that wouldn't 'work' anyway); the culture wars have gotten so entrenched you can't pass a Material Concerns Bill and even if you did you wouldn't get credit for it. But just going "lol incels lol" is extremely dangerous when they're hitting 60% of the population.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 19:51
|
|
|
Has anyone tried appealing to the machismo and saying "if you have politics that don't make women run away, you tend to have more women near you"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 19:56
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Yep, Gen Z guys are turning hard right because they can’t sexually harass women anymore. Not because of the apocalyptic housing market, the increasingly horrific employment market for people who are not in a high level STEM field, and (for the US / Canada only) also fentanyl and meth ravaging white America, and the absurd cost of higher education. A lot of them are probably just assholes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 20:32
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Yep, Gen Z guys are turning hard right because they can’t sexually harass women anymore. Not because of the apocalyptic housing market, the increasingly horrific employment market for people who are not in a high level STEM field, and (for the US / Canada only) also fentanyl and meth ravaging white America, and the absurd cost of higher education. This would make even the slightest bit of sense if the right was putting forth plans for these issues and not bitching about how birth control ruins women's minds.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 20:40
|
|
|
Yeah I could almost understand some kind of mid 60s hard-hat Labour revival of bad social values but also good jobs, or at the other end some kind of libertarian playboy party of free markets, free love, free lube, but flocking towards socially regressive free marketeers sounds like they are just mad at other people's freedoms taking their birthrights and know deep inside that if all the brakes were taken off (and placed on other people) they'd end up in their natural place at the top.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 20:45
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:and know deep inside that if all the brakes were taken off (and placed on other people) they'd end up in their natural place at the top. i mean, yes. that's what they think. they look at the period of history where europe did whatever it wanted with the rest of the world and think "drat if those colonial empires were still around i'd have a no-effort cushy job running somewhere," ignoring the crippling poverty and hardship for most of the population even in europe because those people didn't leave the same amount of records
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 20:49
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:i mean, yes. that's what they think. they look at the period of history where europe did whatever it wanted with the rest of the world and think "drat if those colonial empires were still around i'd have a no-effort cushy job running somewhere," ignoring the crippling poverty and hardship for most of the population even in europe because those people didn't leave the same amount of records In other words, it’s a desire to rectify grievances by returning to an ultranationalist past that never existed. Which is the very definition of fascism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 20:52
|
|
|
Mister Olympus posted:ignoring the crippling poverty and hardship for most of the population even in europe because those people didn't leave the same amount of records Not all of it, because it's the curse of the social reformer to assume that everything can be fixed by just telling people about it, when some of those people just don't care and have a fashy fantasy of being a colonial administrator, but actually talking about historical poverty and classism in the same way that schools are now trying to talk about racism and sexism might at least start a conversation.    Charles Booth's London Poverty Map, now available online.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 21:22
|
|
|
So poor you’re criminal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 21:47
|
|
|
Only semi-criminal!
|
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 21:48
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:This would make even the slightest bit of sense if the right was putting forth plans for these issues and not bitching about how birth control ruins women's minds. Having legitimate grievances makes it easy to target those people with bullshit shiny objects to distract them from those legitimate grievances, even if (perhaps especially if) those shiny objects are totally unrelated to the real issue. It’s not like AFD is exclusively males, a ton of women vote for them too. A ton of non-white people vote for Trump, including even this time Hispanics are polling HIGHER for him than for Biden (46% vs 40%). If you’re talking about literal actual "we are genuinely Nazis 100% honest to god" right wing parties then maybe you can easily brand them all as idiot racist incels, but Trumpism, AFD, FN, etc are not fringe parties and they all have large support even from minority groups and women. Similarly to Trump getting the plurality of the Hispanic votes, AFD is making good inroads with disenfranchised Germans of Balkan and Turkish descent. Probably less so with first gen immigrants, but still. Same with Marie’s slightly rebranded FN. Will AFD help the Ruhr and the DDR if they get in power? No, they’ll focus on culture war bullshit and ineffective governing. But people in those areas will vote for them into power for at least a couple cycles until they realize it doesn’t actually work very well. People who perceive themselves as disenfranchised are going to vote for change, whatever party seems to be promising to "shake things up" the most. Saladman fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Apr 6, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 6, 2024 22:22
|
|
|
Zesty posted:So poor you’re criminal. been mapped by been located by a semi criminal
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 01:41
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Anyway, tangentially related, since the South Korean legislative elections are in a few days, here are the results of the 2020 election: The region in the southeast (Yeongnam) has always skewed heavily right wing. It was the birthplace of most of the dictators (and right wing presidents) and outside of Seoul was the part of the country that benefited disporportionately from government investment. Jeolla (the solidly blue province in the southwest) by comparison was a left wing stronghold and heavily repressed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising). Since this was all only a few decades ago (and right wing presidents since democratization haven't exactly severed themselves from the legacy) a lot of people in older generations, who naturally get out to vote more too, still vote along those lines. I don't know the specific reason for Busan skewing right wing, but my hunch: Korea is heavily centered on Seoul, kind of worryingly so (all notable arts etc happen in Seoul, you've only 'made it' if you have a job in Seoul. This attitude is if anything stronger in the youth than older people), to the point that the urban drift for what leftward inclined youth of Youngnam there is generally goes there rather than Busan. Population pyramids are on wiki and I think seem to back that up -- Busan skews a lot older.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 03:56
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Will AFD help the Ruhr and the DDR if they get in power? No, they’ll focus on culture war bullshit and ineffective governing. But people in those areas will vote for them into power for at least a couple cycles until they realize it doesn’t actually work very well. People who perceive themselves as disenfranchised are going to vote for change, whatever party seems to be promising to "shake things up" the most. I think you're unfortunately being too optimistic here. I think this will only stop if the 1) socio-political systems that govern us are rebuilt from the ground up to no longer redistribute wealth to the top (very unlikely to happen), and/or 2) fascist parties are outlawed (way too late for it in most cases) and/or 3) the corporate strangehold over the media is broken (see 1). Also don't underestimate that many far-right voters really do realise that voting for fascists isn't going to improve their lot in life, but it will make others suffer more.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 10:47
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:If the far right are the ones who are telling them they are right to be angry while everybody else pretends things are going great, then they are going to be angry about the things that the far right tells them to be angry about. This is really well put and I'm going to be stealing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 11:34
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 13:41
|
|
|
Most similar climate? Temp x rainfall?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 13:53
|
|
|
Koramei posted:The region in the southeast (Yeongnam) has always skewed heavily right wing. It was the birthplace of most of the dictators (and right wing presidents) and outside of Seoul was the part of the country that benefited disporportionately from government investment. Jeolla (the solidly blue province in the southwest) by comparison was a left wing stronghold and heavily repressed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising). Since this was all only a few decades ago (and right wing presidents since democratization haven't exactly severed themselves from the legacy) a lot of people in older generations, who naturally get out to vote more too, still vote along those lines. Thank you for this explanation. I knew that places like Jeju have historically had a strong labor movement, but I didn't know it extended to that region of the country more generally. I have also read many times that Seoul is crushingly dominant in South Korea, similar to Paris in France. I wonder if its continued appeal in combination with low fertility rates will eventually lead to other, more rural regions becoming depopulated by comparison.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:00
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Thank you for this explanation. I knew that places like Jeju have historically had a strong labor movement, but I didn't know it extended to that region of the country more generally. It's called a primate city and its extremely common.  Red is a country that doesn't have a primate city. Only region of the world where they aren't common is countries with huge populations (with exceptions like Japan, Indonesia and Iran even then), Former colonies of the british empire (But NOT Britain itself), and the former USSR (Some communism reason or maybe a russian culture one, or a coincidence I don't know.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:08
|
|
|
Muscle Tracer posted:Most similar climate? Temp x rainfall?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:19
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:It's called a primate city and its extremely common. Hmm. I've never given it much thought before but yes, it makes sense to call Brussels a primate city, even after federalization. I myself worked there for 5-6 years. I think it's a matter of degree, though. Its flow of domestic migration is mostly in one direction only, outwards. Almost no one in this country (outside of a handful of yuppies) thinks Brussels is prestigious or has any particular desire to live there, because one half of the city is severely affected by urban decay, and the other half is completely unaffordable considering what's on offer. In contrast, the way Koramei is describing Seoul, it seems like that city is still actively attracting people from all over the country. However, this might be related to how densely packed Belgium is. It is easy to commute to Brussels while living in what we could consider to be a completely different part of the country. In a bigger country my town would probably be considered a de facto part of the Brussels Metropolitan Area.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:27
|
|
|
South Korea is actually trying to get away from Seoul's domination of the nation by moving the capital out of the city, but it's not really gone well yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zsYwmOqt8U Indonesia is also trying to get away from Jakarta. I think often a single city dominating everything can sort of be a failure of government, since it means that funding for major projects can't really move out to the rest of the country because the capital has to take its toll first. The people in the outlying provices become underrepresented, both in the government and the general cultural idea of what the nation "is".
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:38
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:South Korea is actually trying to get away from Seoul's domination of the nation by moving the capital out of the city, but it's not really gone well yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zsYwmOqt8U Indonesia is also trying to get away from Jakarta. Almost every developing country ends up trying this (Yes I know South Korea isn't a developing country anymore. But the countries that try this usually are because one of the big motivators is stretching the counties budget with cheap land. The other big motivator is protecting the government from civil unrest and coups by moving its institutions away from the populace.) The most successful attempt so far has been Brasilia and I wouldn't really call it a success so much as a "Did ok I guess" so there's not really a great track record for these projects I guess Egypt's project is going OK but because the part of egypt people actually live in is only like 2 miles wide its kind of like the Belgium situation where they're just moving it 10 miles east but this may as well be the moon from Egypt's perspective.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:46
|
|
|
Yeah, lots of countries might have primate cities but Seoul is an extreme example of one. There's a stark difference in how developed everything feels in the capital region compared to beyond. In Seoul (+ the general metropolitan area, out to Incheon and Gyeonggi province) it's often easy to forget Korea was dirt poor a few decades ago; infrastructurally, even in social attitudes etc. The rest of the country, even the second biggest city, haven't caught up though. The general attitude among the Korean youth as far as I'm aware isn't to even really acknowledge this is an issue, which is a shame. Maybe with housing prices coming politically to the forefront in the past couple of election cycles that's changing in a way I haven't noticed, but there's still very much an attitude of only jobs (and people) in Seoul being worth the time. Literally right now for instance there's a massive doctor's strike because the government is trying to intervene to get enough doctors to go work in places that aren't the capital and the doctors are throwing a fit about it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 14:52
|
|
|
Solution is simple. Have Seoul annex suburbs until it’s city limits encompass all of South Korea
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 15:07
|
|
|
imo it's important to not have your political capital and economic capital be the same city see: Sydney, Camberra. Wellington, Auckland. Washington, NYC, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 15:43
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Almost every developing country ends up trying this (Yes I know South Korea isn't a developing country anymore. But the countries that try this usually are because one of the big motivators is stretching the counties budget with cheap land. It can work plenty, it just usually takes a while to take off. Washington DC I think might be the most famous purpose-built capital, but Ithink Canberra in Australia is doing okay. St. Petersburg is still the second biggest city in Russia despite the capital being taken back to Moscow. Indonesia has the extra excuse that Jakarta is in a position where it's being hit hard by climate change, so moving all the government buildings somewhere drier as well as more central makes sense from just an infrastructure perspective. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:I guess Egypt's project is going OK but because the part of egypt people actually live in is only like 2 miles wide its kind of like the Belgium situation where they're just moving it 10 miles east but this may as well be the moon from Egypt's perspective. The inhabited area of Egypt is like 10 miles wide in the southern part of the country. Up north it spreads out a bunch, as does the Nile itself so that it's like 200 miles wide as it meets the sea. The as of yet unnamed administrative capital actually is part of a sequence of (failed) attempts to build new cities right outside of Cairo to take some population pressure off of it (and each time they mainly just create a place for the middle and upper class to go). It joins the ranks of creatively named places like New Cairo, Sixth of October, Fifteenth of May, and Tenth of Ramadan.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 15:59
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:It's called a primate city and its extremely common. I’m San Marino and Liechtenstein, and I do not have a primate city. I’m also surprised for Spain and Portugal. Like why are Barcelona and Porto considered significant enough to rival Madrid and Lisbon, but Marseille and Lyon not considered significant enough to rival Paris? I don’t really know enough about them to say, but Madrid seems to me an exceptional example of a primate city - considering it just smacked Barcelona down back in its place, and no other city is even remotely close in comparison.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 16:05
|
|
|
Saladman posted:I’m San Marino and Liechtenstein, and I do not have a primate city. A primate city is much larger than other cities in the country and is dominant in every area. Barcelona is the fifth biggest urban area in the EU. While Madrid is larger Barcelona is large enough that it prevents Madrid from being a primate city. A good rule of thumb for whether something has a primate city or not is do the residents of that country think in terms of Urban Vs Rural or London/Paris/Tokyo be everywhere else. When I visited England people in Manchester a very large, very cosmopolitan city could not understand that I wasn’t going to visit London. The idea of someone visiting England and NOT ending up in London at some point was preposterous.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 16:10
|
|
|
I guess that makes sense. Porto and Lisbon are much closer in size than I thought (1.7 vs 2.8 million) as are Barcelona vs Madrid (5.6 m vs 7 m). France doesn’t even come close (13m for Paris, vs 1.7m for Lyon and Marseille). I didn’t realize Paris was literally 10x the size of France’s next two biggest cities, and that Barcelona was so close to Madrid. I still think it breaks down for something like Liechtenstein - Vaduz, Triesen, and Schaan are continuous - but I don’t actually know anything about San Marino. It doesn’t quite work as well for traveling though. Lots of people would recommend going to Ireland and avoiding Dublin, for instance. Although I’d probably have to think a fair bit for which other primate cities would be avoided (or simply uninteresting) for a tourist in that country. I guess Reykjavik, but good luck getting to Iceland without going through there. (Yes I know not impossible - but very unusual.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 16:55
|
|
|
Saladman posted:I’m San Marino and Liechtenstein, and I do not have a primate city.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 16:55
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Red is a country that doesn't have a primate city. Only region of the world where they aren't common is countries with huge populations (with exceptions like Japan, Indonesia and Iran even then), Former colonies of the british empire (But NOT Britain itself), and the former USSR (Some communism reason or maybe a russian culture one, or a coincidence I don't know.) I think Russia is a lot simpler, Petersburg and Moscow just have always split the urban core population a bit. A lot of the red countries are in the same situation with having a strong second city. NY/LA/Chicago, Rio/Sao Paulo, Beijing/Shanghai, Mumbai/Kolkata/Delhi, Lisbon/Porto. Japan is an exception because even though Osaka is pretty big, Tokyo is gigantic. Mister Olympus fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Apr 7, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 16:56
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:I wonder if its continued appeal in combination with low fertility rates will eventually lead to other, more rural regions becoming depopulated by comparison. This has already happened. Go to any rural area of Korea and try to find someone younger than 60. The Seoul dominance is difficult to grasp if you haven't lived in Korea. I lived outside Seoul my entire time and it's nuts how just no one gives a poo poo about the rest of the country. There's a lot of resentment about it, many of my Korean friends loathed Seoul and people from there. I def think "gently caress Seoul" is an important part of the voting pattern there. I'm glad I lived outside of it because the attitude is so stifling. The number of people I met there, both local and expat, who had never left Seoul and couldn't imagine a reason why they would do so was amazing. Japan is very Tokyo-centered but it's nowhere near Korea's level.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 17:38
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Almost every developing country ends up trying this (Yes I know South Korea isn't a developing country anymore. But the countries that try this usually are because one of the big motivators is stretching the counties budget with cheap land. Isn't the most successful attempt at doing this Washington DC?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 19:51
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Isn't the most successful attempt at doing this Washington DC?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 19:56
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Isn't the most successful attempt at doing this Washington DC? Constantinople
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 20:05
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Isn't the most successful attempt at doing this Washington DC?
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 20:32
|
|
|
I mean a lot of other places that weren’t British settler colonial states also have them
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 20:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 18:03 |
|
|
Why does "primate city" mean something boring like Paris, and not something like Lopburi, which is overrun by macaques.
|
|
#
?
Apr 7, 2024 20:57
|
|
