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Jetrauben posted:Still don't get how folks see the ending and go "yeah this is gonna be a story about acquiescing to Fate and also Aerith is turbo dead and will never return, after everything related to Zack's arc and the entire climax of the game." It's genuinely baffling. I definitely don’t think Aerith and Zack won’t be part of the third game, but I feel like the ending of rebirth tried to square the circle of keeping the emotional impact of Aerith’s death while also making it part of the mystery to hook players into the next game, but doing so in such a convoluted way means whether or not Aerith is alive is like a metaphysical puzzle more than an immediately relevant question. Rebirth sends the message that the story is not going to fundamentally change, so we just get to ponder questions about the ontological status of people living in other possible worlds compared to spirits persisting in the lifestream after death. I’m sure there will be a conflict to resolve that goes beyond defeating Safer Sephiroth in the northern crater, but Rebirth’s ending gives the feeling that it will be part of some kind needlessly complicated metaphysical battle that doesn’t allow significant changes to the main timeline. Then it’s the same conflict repeated over again, but with stakes that are harder to understand. The game’s main strengths, for me, are the character writing and the combat, and this lets us have more of both, so I’m not complaining too much. I do wish they let rebirth get a little more off the rails, though.
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Apr 6, 2024 23:41
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I mentioned it earlier but it really made me think of Nonary Games where Akane died in the past of one timeline, then in the game's timeline if she didn't mess with things in such a way to correct that she'd Back to the Future fade out of existence It'd explain Aerith both being and not being there at the end of Rebirth, anyway
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Apr 7, 2024 00:04
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lmao my cousin has been playing rebirth after enjoying remake, and he's coming at it as someone who never played the original game and can't really get himself to play older turn-based rpgs with just text and basically only knows the bit where Aerith dies. Anyway, I've been floating the idea of trying to get him interested in the first game, even offering to play it while he watches, and tell him about the cheats in the modern versions. He apparently already owns it on Steam and was looking at the page while we were talking about it, and the first thing he sees when he scrolled down (spoilers for original FFVII) is Zack in the truck with Sephiroth and with Cloud sitting next to him in the Shinra soldier fatigues. He just got to Cosmo Canyon in the remake so he obviously knows about the scene from the flashback, but I think he's under the impression that the OG game just has the scene like that and I wasn't about to open my mouth to say anything. Luckily it was some modded screenshot with flashier models so I just told him "yeah that looks modded". Edit just realized other people might be in the same position as him since this is only the spoiler thread for Rebirth. Phantasium fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 05:11
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Just rolled credits on an amazing game! Yeah the most telling thing for me is Nanaki saying "Aerith?" when she pets him. There's a lot of intentional ambiguity, but this seems to be the writers very explicitly telling us it's more than just in Cloud's head. The theory about pushing through the wall of whispers also tracks to me. They all did it in Remake, and only Cloud in Rebirth. He's gotten a bit desynced from reality. He's also insane! So that's fun. I normally hate multiverse stuff but I give it a pass here because of how they handle it. For one, they never have characters meeting copies of themselves, nor do they have characters having conversations like "well what were things like in your universe? Tiresome. In these games multiverse stuff revolves around fixing/dwelling on mistakes and key moments in people's lives, which carries emotional weight and keeps things a bit simpler. I think there's a law in storytelling that if you have a beloved character say "Goodbye" as the rest of the cast flies away, you're actually not allowed to bring them back later. I think the writers could see jail time for that. In all seriousness though, while the lines say "with multiverses anything is possible," between the lines it clearly says, "Aerith's dead." Well, dead tired of being a party member anyway. She's ambassador to the planet now so we'll hear her voice a few times here and there just line in AC. The 14-part final boss fight kind of overstayed its welcome, and I did every single side quest except for the Shinra party guy. Had to JerryThrowsHandsUp.gif at that one. Otherwise a perfect game IMO.
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Apr 7, 2024 09:06
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There's something odd between Nanaki and Aerith ever since the beginning of their escape from the Shinra hq in Remake. Nanaki admits this if you manage to get a date with him on the gold saucer. Nanaki tells Cloud he felt he and Aerith 'could see the future' but could not anymore, and that Aerith is in danger. There's multiple scenes of Nanaki hearing conversations Aerith is having even though she is by herself. The whole thing is very strange
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Apr 7, 2024 09:55
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Those are, ah, scenes of Nanaki talking to Aerith.
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Apr 7, 2024 10:07
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A theme of FF7 is "humans are disconnected from nature". Aerith is an Ancient and Red XIII is more in tune with nature, so they were able to feel these things. Red is going to be more sensitive to perceiving Aerith's spirit entering the lifestream.
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Apr 7, 2024 10:12
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Just Andi Now posted:Those are, ah, scenes of Nanaki talking to Aerith. You sure? Isn't there a bit in Johnny's hotel where Nanaki is waking up to Aerith talking to somebody in the shower Zedsdeadbaby fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 10:45
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She was talking to Nanaki using his teenager voice, and they were trying to hide it so they could have a reveal later. Or rather, they were trying to foreshadow it without making it too blatant. IE: He was always around for those scenes but they never showed his mouth while he was talking, in order to mislead you into thinking she's talking to someone else. Once his real voice gets revealed in Cosmo Canyon, you're supposed to go "aha! she was talking to Red all along!" Clarste fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 10:56
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Finally finished it. 120 hrs. I did every side quest and mini game that you can do before completing the main scenario. Bugged g-bike better get fixed. The final boss fights were great. My only gripe is they could have given some warning to put materia and poo poo on ALL your characters
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Apr 7, 2024 17:06
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You should be doing that anyway since backline party gets 100% exp and ap as well. That's an awful lot of materia not being leveled if you're not gearing everyone up
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Apr 7, 2024 18:39
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:You should be doing that anyway since backline party gets 100% exp and ap as well. That's an awful lot of materia not being leveled if you're not gearing everyone up But there's a big difference between someone equipped for battle and someone with HP<>MP and the chocobo bangle with an AP UP in it. The game could definitely have used a few more "everyone is involved" fights aside from that and the 6 person arenas.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:57
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I had some bad luck with the party combos they forced you into. Barret, Tifa, and Red vs. the wings and core was some really bad luck for me because Tifa was the only one with some elemental magic equipped(Red had bio and quake, and Barret had all support abilities). Took forever to kill those wings, especially with then changing their elemental weakness constantly.
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Apr 7, 2024 19:53
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:You should be doing that anyway since backline party gets 100% exp and ap as well. That's an awful lot of materia not being leveled if you're not gearing everyone up  I should have....paid more attention to the directions.
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Apr 7, 2024 20:20
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Rhonne posted:I had some bad luck with the party combos they forced you into. Barret, Tifa, and Red vs. the wings and core was some really bad luck for me because Tifa was the only one with some elemental magic equipped(Red had bio and quake, and Barret had all support abilities). Took forever to kill those wings, especially with then changing their elemental weakness constantly. Don't you have Yuffie for that part? In other words, all the elemental damage you need?
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Apr 7, 2024 20:44
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The parties are somewhat randomized for the final gauntlet. Not sure what affects which party members are present for which part but it's definitely not the same for everyone.
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Apr 7, 2024 20:49
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Pennfalath posted:Don't you have Yuffie for that part? In other words, all the elemental damage you need? No, I had her for a different part of the fight. This was just Barret, Tifa, and Red.
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Apr 7, 2024 20:57
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Rhonne posted:I had some bad luck with the party combos they forced you into. Barret, Tifa, and Red vs. the wings and core was some really bad luck for me because Tifa was the only one with some elemental magic equipped(Red had bio and quake, and Barret had all support abilities). Took forever to kill those wings, especially with then changing their elemental weakness constantly. I still am not sure exactly what you’re supposed to do there, but Stardust Ray just absolutely melted the wings. I had Yuffie for that fight and kept trying to deal elemental damage, and it was super frustrating and taking forever, then I just had Red use Stardust Ray and he obliterated them.
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Apr 7, 2024 23:41
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Rhonne posted:I had some bad luck with the party combos they forced you into. Barret, Tifa, and Red vs. the wings and core was some really bad luck for me because Tifa was the only one with some elemental magic equipped(Red had bio and quake, and Barret had all support abilities). Took forever to kill those wings, especially with then changing their elemental weakness constantly. I owned myself in the Jenova Lifeclinger fight because I completely forgot to re-equip Cait Sith beforehand and got stuck with him lol
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Apr 8, 2024 00:43
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Yeah I got Cait Sith for 2 of the 3 fights and I had completely forgotten to restock his materia. Spent all the fights thinking he somehow kept getting hit with silence.
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Apr 8, 2024 00:51
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Finished the plat. Something like 180 hours or so. VR was the loving slog but the rest wasn't so bad. I'll look forward to replaying it on easy mode a half year or so from now to enjoy the story again.Rhonne posted:I had some bad luck with the party combos they forced you into. Barret, Tifa, and Red vs. the wings and core was some really bad luck for me because Tifa was the only one with some elemental magic equipped(Red had bio and quake, and Barret had all support abilities). Took forever to kill those wings, especially with then changing their elemental weakness constantly. Yep I also had no Yuffie and also had no fire or ice materia equipped on anyone, was literally a drunk stumble through 90% of these fights. Thank god for the numerous checkpoints despite them putting it at the beginning of the cutscenes rather than the end.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:16
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Harrow posted:I owned myself in the Jenova Lifeclinger fight because I completely forgot to re-equip Cait Sith beforehand and got stuck with him lol Yeah, it's real hosed up because it's the only time a character leaves the party and un-equips everything. I guess they didn't want to spoil that he comes back, but it's still annoying.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:41
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"oh, laddies, i'm so glad you've welcomed me back to-" me, brandishing double armful of materia: shut up and hold still
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Apr 8, 2024 01:43
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Pretty sure my last hit on Jenova was a molotov cocktail or whatever item that's called because I couldn't get near and just needed to do a little bit of magic damage.
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Apr 8, 2024 02:03
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Don't sleep on the boatload of grenades you pick up around the world, it's great crowd control and knocks enemies flat on their backs If you use item master/economizer with grenades you're in for a jolly good time
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Apr 8, 2024 17:07
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So I beat the game last night, and can someone please explain to me what the gently caress happened in, basically, all of Chapter 14? First off, all the Zach stuff. So there's an alternate world where Zach and Cloud disappeared after their escape and only just re-appeared, and events have happened in their absence, with Avalanche doing a series of reactor bombings culminating in the Sector 7 plate drop, except Avalanche did much worse without a super-soldier in their ranks, resulting in mass casualties and Aerith being greivously injured in the plate drop. Zach rescues that Aerith and takes care of her and his Cloud. Okay. That's straightforward. Except, the Biggs in that world is the Biggs from the Re* games, with memories of those events that include Cloud and do not include Barret and Tifa being dead. And then it turns out that Cloud, who's never been out of Zach's care since the escape, and Aerith, who was living her life until a sector plate fell on her, aren't those people at all, they're the Re* Cloud and Aerith from when they fall into the black materia hole. What are the rules here? How does this possibly make sense? Did Cloud and Aerith travel back in time? Does entering that alternate world cause a replace effect of whatever version of you was there before? Also, there were, by my count, at least three Zachs in the final sequence. We see him choosing between going to Shinra HQ to confront Hojo or going to the Sector 6 reactor to confront Biggs, with the clear understanding that there is not time to do both. Then we see him in Shinra HQ with his fate apparently catching up to him, because he's facing a firing squad of a full platoon of soldiers. Then we see him in Reactor 6, with his fate apparently catching up to him, because he's facing a firing squad of a full platoon of soldiers, though he seems to defy it that time and get away. Then we see him back at the church, unable to decide where to go, before Sephiroth apparently casually murders him. I'm not insane, right? There's no way that's the same guy every time. Oh, and by the way, don't think I didn't notice how the Cloud/Aerith sequence in Whatever World takes time out to deliberately mock the concept of your choices being able to change the story. Three times, you're offered three options, and each time the game disregards your choice and something else happens instead -- you won't get the present you pick, you won't eat the snack you want, and the pose you choose doesn't matter, since you won't get your picture taken. Oh, and you're literally led by the hand between each choice, just to make it more blatant. I don't have a question here, I just want to call it out, since I think it has bearing on my last, and most important question: Is Aerith alive or dead or both or what the everloving gently caress is even going on Okay, so Sephiroth comes in for his big stab moment and you manage to get your sword around and block it, in one of the most cathartic video game experiences in recent memory. Except then there's a glitch and Aerith is stabbed anyway, so first, what the gently caress was that, and second, the game's bizarre refusal to show blood when people are wounded really works against it for this entire scene, because Aerith is always lying there completely pristine with no blood on the ground and that does not make it easier to figure out what's going on when you loving opened with showing two versions of this or something. And then fight scene fight scene fight scene with Aerith, at least, out of comission, except then she walks in out of the Lifestream for the final fight, and certainly appears to be there for that, Sephiroth is sure reacting to her. Then the fight is over and she doesn't transition back to the "real" world the way Cloud does, she's back on the ground, incapacitated somehow, the lack of any Has Been Stabbed indicators are at their most obnoxious here. But then Cloud tells her to wake up... and she does, and notably, while the entire Aerith Dies scene has been playing out extremely straight so far, we do not get the sequence of Cloud taking her body to the water and placing her in it. Afterwards, everyone is clearly grieving, and while Aerith is there, is also quite clear that only Cloud can see her at all. In fact, given that Cloud is bugfuck crazy and getting worse, if it wasn't for Nanaki almost sensing her presence, she'd be easy to write off entirely as a hallucination. But... he does, and Aerith persists even after the plane flies off, not a camera cut to show her having disappeared, not even her dissolving into Lifestream glow. If she's a spirit, she's a remarkably persistent one. So I have a quarter-baked theory, but seriously, can anyone explain to me what the gently caress was going on for any of that? Also, if Aerith is dead, I'm going to be really upset. Like, yeah, she loving ruled and of all the many character rehabilitations they did, taking Aerith out from "too good for this sinful Earth perfect martyr" and back into "cool, spunky chick who's very much a real person with multiple facets and a joy to have around" is one of their best jobs. But also, it's going to make me mad on a story level, because... why? Why open this game with a deliberate wink to the player with Aerith "dying" complete with White Materia hitting the ground and bouncing? Why have Marlene literally face the camera and narrate, beat for beat, exactly how Sephiroth kills Aerith if... that is in fact what is going to happen? And, most importantly, why any of this? What's the loving point of changing the plot at all? We literally killed the concept of Fate itself at the end of the last game specifically to deny this; everyone was at least vaguely aware they'd gotten a bittersweet ending at best the first time around and they were willing to sacrifice a guaranteed win in exchange for the chance to do it better this time. And, what, we can't? Whole goddamn thing was futile? Aerith died anyway, lol, sucks to be you? We shoulda let them railroad us. We threw away a guaranteed victory and have gained nothing by it. That is a very, very upsetting thought, and while I can appreciate games whose message is "shouldn't have played me, you made everything worse with your presence", they don't make me happy and they're not the sort of thing I replay, because I can take a hint, thank you very much. So I don't love feeling like this right now. CapnAndy fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Apr 8, 2024 |
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Apr 8, 2024 20:02
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The answer is "this is the second of three games and a lot of the questions are meant to be answered in the next game. As it stands now, Aerith is dead, Cloud is brainfucked, and Zack is Somewhere."
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Apr 8, 2024 20:07
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CapnAndy posted:Also, there were, by my count, at least three Zachs in the final sequence. We see him choosing between going to Shinra HQ to confront Hojo or going to the Sector 6 reactor to confront Biggs, with the clear understanding that there is not time to do both. Then we see him in Shinra HQ with his fate apparently catching up to him, because he's facing a firing squad of a full platoon of soldiers. Then we see him in Reactor 6, with his fate apparently catching up to him, because he's facing a firing squad of a full platoon of soldiers, though he seems to defy it that time and get away. Then we see him back at the church, unable to decide where to go, before Sephiroth apparently casually murders him. Those were all different timelines. If you go back and watch those scenes again, there are different breeds of Stamp in each one. What you were seeing was three different possibilities: one where Zack goes to talk to Hojo to try to help Cloud (and is presumably killed by Shinra troops), one where he goes to save Biggs (and is presumably killed by Shinra troops), and one where he encounters Sephiroth while sitting on the church steps (and then gets blasted into some kind of void between worlds). My hypothesis is that it's the same Zack each time. If you notice, in his scene with Biggs, he doesn't seem to understand why he's there or how he got there, just like both he and Biggs experienced before. I think he's getting whisked from timeline to timeline just like he got pulled into the alternate timeline initially during his original last stand. CapnAndy posted:We literally killed the concept of Fate itself at the end of the last game specifically to deny this; everyone was at least vaguely aware they'd gotten a bittersweet ending at best the first time around and they were willing to sacrifice a guaranteed win in exchange for the chance to do it better this time. And, what, we can't? Whole goddamn thing was futile? Aerith died anyway, lol, sucks to be you? We shoulda let them railroad us. We threw away a guaranteed victory and have gained nothing by it. That is a very, very upsetting thought, and while I can appreciate games whose message is "shouldn't have played me, you made everything worse with your presence", they don't make me happy and they're not the sort of thing I replay, because I can take a hint, thank you very much. So I don't love feeling like this right now. I think a lot of us probably misinterpreted what the Whisper Harbinger was at the end of Remake. After all, the Whispers are still around, alive and well, in Rebirth. I think the Whisper Harbinger was less the embodiment of all Fate itself and more just like... a really big Whisper. Hell, I'm even considering that maybe the Whispers were already under Sephiroth's control at that point. They were screaming just like they do in Rebirth, after all. Either way, it's important to remember that this is only part two of a three-part series. It'd be weird if everything was resolved now, right?
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Apr 8, 2024 20:09
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I feel like you can leave mysteries open for a part 3 while still having part 2 end in a way that allows you to understand what is going on. I know many in this thread have no problem with the ending, but it feels like a very large number of people come in with "I just finished Rebirth. I'm confused." imo - Mysteries are good. Confusion is not. I feel like this is a problem with breaking one story into three parts.
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Apr 8, 2024 20:21
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I do agree that a lot of this stuff is a bit more vague and confusing than it has to be. Like I wouldn't say I have "no problem" with the ending, really. I also don't think it's a problem with breaking the story in three parts. You can leave mysteries open between games without having to be this open-ended. I think this is less an issue with the trilogy structure and more just an issue with how vaguely the space-time aspect of the story has been written so far. It doesn't help that every time Sephiroth monologues about his wants and goals he's about as vague as he can possibly be about it.
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Apr 8, 2024 20:25
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Mordiceius posted:imo - Mysteries are good. Confusion is not. attitudes like this are why we’re plagued with poo poo like “EXPLAINED” videos and the cinemasins ding allow uncertainty and discomfort into your life
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Apr 8, 2024 20:26
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To clarify, my issue isn't with uncertainty, but that it's difficult to speculate because the uncertainty goes so far that the entire premises on which you can base story speculation is also speculative. Like it's difficult to have a real discussion about whether Aerith is alive in another timeline at the end because people can't even agree on what it means to be in another timeline, or what a timeline is in this context, or how you get between them, or how new ones are created, or whether they're even separate realities at all.
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Apr 8, 2024 20:28
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Mordiceius posted:I feel like you can leave mysteries open for a part 3 while still having part 2 end in a way that allows you to understand what is going on. I know many in this thread have no problem with the ending, but it feels like a very large number of people come in with "I just finished Rebirth. I'm confused." Nobody is actually confused over what happened. "We fought Sephiroth, Aerith seems to have died, Cloud is the only one to directly acknowledge Aerith after that, Cloud's brain bad" are all the details that are necessary to understand the ending, with the specific details of what those last bits mean are something that would be a mystery no matter what. They're confused over the alternate dimension weird poo poo but that is the mystery and is supposed to be confusing because we lack the details to fully understand what it means.
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Apr 8, 2024 20:28
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Harrow posted:I think a lot of us probably misinterpreted what the Whisper Harbinger was at the end of Remake. After all, the Whispers are still around, alive and well, in Rebirth. I think the Whisper Harbinger was less the embodiment of all Fate itself and more just like... a really big Whisper. We don't see any pro-Sephiroth Whispers or the Black/White split until after the Arbiter dies. Mordiceius posted:I feel like you can leave mysteries open for a part 3 while still having part 2 end in a way that allows you to understand what is going on. I know many in this thread have no problem with the ending, but it feels like a very large number of people come in with "I just finished Rebirth. I'm confused."
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Apr 8, 2024 20:42
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sephiroth wanted the big whisper defeated so he could usurp it, not dismiss it. this was obvious in remake when he sucks its remains into himself and then tries to kill off the party with the vision of meteor’s crash, and he keeps using that power to his advantage throughout rebirth
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Apr 8, 2024 20:48
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CapnAndy posted:I don't think that tracks, though. Those Whispers were working against him (see: bringing Barret back) and Sephiroth wanted that thing dead too, don't forget. Everything he did in the first game was to manipulate the party into killing it for him, and he's honestly pretty explicit in that with the Arbiter of Fate around, he literally can't win, because the Whispers will shove the story back on track every time he tries to derail it. Sephiroth never really discusses fate, destiny, or the Whispers at all until the very end, though. In fact the only time he talks about "defying destiny" at all is after the final battles are over. CapnAndy posted:Yes, thank you, exactly. At the end of Rebirth there were a lot of mysteries and the entire thing was wide open, I had no idea what was going to happen next (which was the point, or so it seemed at the time), but I knew what had happened. Things got unexpected and even metaphysical and I could still sit you down and explain the plot, complete with why everyone did what they did and how it all works. This time? Not so much! The thing is... maybe you didn't. I don't mean this to be a dick, though I understand I'm gonna come off that way because I'm bad at arguing. What I'm saying is that a lot of people were very confident they knew exactly what was going on in the ending of Remake and Rebirth didn't really bear out a lot of that. I think a lot of those people have just assumed this must mean there was a change in direction after Remake or things are being retconned but I think it's too early to determine that when it's also entirely possible we all just misinterpreted the ending of Remake. For example, people seemed very certain that the Whispers were dead and gone after Remake and that killing the Whisper Harbinger meant destroying Fate itself, but that's clearly not the case. The Whispers are still around, some of them are under Sephiroth's control, and the idea of fate is alive and well. The Harbinger turned out to just be a really big Whisper standing in our way. So maybe what we thought we knew and were correct about in Remake was actually not correct because we didn't have all the information yet (and still don't). Harrow fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Apr 8, 2024 |
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Apr 8, 2024 20:48
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Harrow posted:The thing is... maybe you didn't.
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Apr 8, 2024 20:54
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One thing I do have to admit I'm not sure about in all of this are the flashes of the future the party sees while fighting the Whisper Harbinger. I'm still not entirely sure what to make of that and I do think maybe it's a little silly to imply those things won't happen and then to have them all happen anyway. In general I've argued against the idea that the Remake trilogy is necessarily a sequel to the original, but that one part is what makes me go "well, maybe I'm wrong about that."
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Apr 8, 2024 20:58
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I think it's worth noting that Aerith living or dying doesn't mean everything else is set in stone. The nature of Remake/Rebirth makes it hard to identify what exactly is a Change vs just a change, but there are absolutely things that have changed seemingly at Sephiroth's doing. Tifa got knocked into the Lifestream and could very well have died, Wutai is now going to active war, etc. There are different and in those two cases at least it seemed very much that they are 'canonical' changes rather than just being presented in a different way, because in both cases Sephiroth was directly involved in making them happen.
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Apr 8, 2024 21:03
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ImpAtom posted:I think it's worth noting that Aerith living or dying doesn't mean everything else is set in stone. The nature of Remake/Rebirth makes it hard to identify what exactly is a Change vs just a change, but there are absolutely things that have changed seemingly at Sephiroth's doing. Tifa got knocked into the Lifestream and could very well have died, Wutai is now going to active war, etc. There are different and in those two cases at least it seemed very much that they are 'canonical' changes rather than just being presented in a different way, because in both cases Sephiroth was directly involved in making them happen. Also I don't think Sephiroth actually got a chance to ever use the Black Materia? The original timeline was Sephiroth uses Black Materia to call down Meteor, Aerith goes to pray and use White Materia to avert it, Seph goes stabby stabby. But this time he doesn't seem to have done that, although we did have time with our eyes off him while we were in Whatever World, and Aerith's motives for going to pray in the first place were conspicuously withheld.
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Apr 8, 2024 21:07
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