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Feyd-Rautha knocking up Lady Fenring was only after the fact stuff in the failson’s novels right? I’m disappointed in you Denis 
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Apr 7, 2024 23:47
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priznat posted:Feyd-Rautha knocking up Lady Fenring was only after the fact stuff in the failson’s novels right? I’m disappointed in you Denis "The bloodline is secure" Sometimes, familial politics force you to do unpleasant but necessary things.
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Apr 7, 2024 23:51
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I know the usual take here is that Paul is bad, but I'm not really sure who can be characterized as "good". Certainly not the emperor or the Harkonnens. The fremen are the ones doing all the killing. It seems if anyone is good, its a very meta form of good in that humanity survives.
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Apr 7, 2024 23:51
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Spazzle posted:I haven't read past the first book in a very long time. Why did Paul have a giant murderous jihad after becoming emperor? Paul created a religious cult out of people who were already fanatical and extremely good at violence in order to survive, and then his son died and he decided to go "gently caress you alllllll" and once he did that the Jihad was unstoppable. One of the elements of the story however is that Paul was not in control of the creature he created. He couldn't stop it once he created it. He stopped being a person and started being a figurehead and noted that even if he died in some seemingly meaningless way that it would just be worked into the prophecy and the actions would continue under his name with or without him.
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Apr 7, 2024 23:56
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I just realized that dune 2 isn't actually dune since there's no Dunc.
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Apr 8, 2024 00:57
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Paul and Jessica tap in to the prophecies planted by the Missionaria Protectiva in order to survive, and later to get revenge against the Harkonnens and the Emperor. If they had just gotten eaten by a sandworm nothing would have happened, but once they run into Stilgar and friends and start pulling those prophecy levers, they start inexorably down that path. I personally have always found it a little weak because Paul doesn't even try, he just shrugs and says "oh well, nothing we can do, billions gotta die", but that's the situation as presented by the book.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:01
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Alucard posted:I just realized that dune 2 isn't actually dune since there's no Dunc. offscreen, getting brewed up by the tlelaxu
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Apr 8, 2024 01:04
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Spazzle posted:I know the usual take here is that Paul is bad, but I'm not really sure who can be characterized as "good". Certainly not the emperor or the Harkonnens. The fremen are the ones doing all the killing. It seems if anyone is good, its a very meta form of good in that humanity survives. good people in Dunc - Leto Atreides, Duncan Idaho, Liet Kynes, Gurney Halleck notably 3/4 of them are dead pretty quickly in the book, and the last one shows up way too late to stop Paul from his jihad Wingnut Ninja posted:I personally have always found it a little weak because Paul doesn't even try, he just shrugs and says "oh well, nothing we can do, billions gotta die", but that's the situation as presented by the book. dude was high AF and felt it was inevitable after he made it to Sietch Tabr. He could've just died to Feyd and it probably would've stopped, but the Fremen would've been hosed
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Apr 8, 2024 01:10
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Vampire Panties posted:good people in Dunc - Leto Atreides, Duncan Idaho, Liet Kynes, Gurney Halleck Hardly. If he had died to Feyd, his Fremen would likely have poisoned the spice-sands, as he had already rigged to do even as they spoke in order to terrify the guild into compliance, and end space travel forever.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:25
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I always read it as Paul was horrified at the Jihad, but more terrified at disappointing his Father, Jessica, Gurney, Stilgar, Chani, and letting the line of the Atreides die in the desert. He was a coward and decided to kill untold billions instead of dissapoint his mommy. He could've just walked out of the tent and planted a thumper when he had the vision of the jihad but nope, gotta be a duke.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:30
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I thought the movie did a really good job on how he resisted going down that path but in the end didn't see any other way to save the Fremen. It's totally absent from the Lynch movie where it was always like "gently caress yeah, jihad!!"
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Apr 8, 2024 01:36
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I got the impression that the Fremen going on a jihad was imminent anyway and Paul just sort of rode the bull (or in this case, the worm) and used his prescience to guide the future toward one that was preferable to him even if it was horrible. Herbert was big on material conditions and also the idea that the decadence and stagnant conditions of the Imperium were leading towards some kind of inevitable moment that would shatter this. edit: I think Leto II says something to this effect in GEoD, but it's been a few years so my memory is hazy.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:38
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Finally saw Part 2 last night. Movie is awesome as gently caress! There are things I like about it that are better than the book, or the David Lynch adaptation, while there are things about the book & Lynch adaptation that I like better. Basically it’s awesome that we have so many interpretations of this universe and the first book now, and they are all good in my opinion. Part 2 also felt rushed in places, I actually wish it were longer. Or what I would have really preferred is this level of quality, but made into a 10 episode mini-series.
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Apr 8, 2024 01:51
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Vampire Panties posted:good people in Dunc - Leto Atreides, Duncan Idaho, Liet Kynes, Gurney Halleck Leto is a military dictator and colonial drug lord who is fooling himself that he’s so noble and honorable there’s nothing wrong with his way of life, unlike those nasty Harkonnens who bang slaves and don’t fight fair (unlike me with my bound concubine and poison tooth). Halleck and Idaho are his hatchet men. The Atreides wouldn’t have willingly set out to do the jihad but only because it didn’t serve their interests. When they come to think that jihad serves (their) greater good they suddenly can’t envision any future that doesn’t involve unleashing the horde on the universe. And their “good guy” retainers go right along with it, because of course they do. Kynes is Fremen and definitely a pant making GBS threads psycho killer like the rest of them, on top of which his and his dad’s terraforming plan was lunatic poo poo. It’s a feasibility study hopped up on the light version of Muad’dib’s cult, combined with zero sense of political perspective. Did he really think the rest of the universe was going to just sit back for the next few hundred years and let the Fremen destroy galactic civilization to turn Arrakis green? I’m struggling to think when in Dune we meet someone who’s actually good in any way. Maybe some of the random working class guys they meet while on the run in Heretics. Even then they’re mostly traumatized veterans helping out their temporarily embarrassed warlord Teg. Dune series is a story about how if you let people do things for the greater good, before you know it everyone ends up ruled with an iron fist by a satanic dragon god and his sex nun minions.
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Apr 8, 2024 02:03
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I know it's said that dune is a counterpoint to the foundation series. But at the end, they both have psychic future seers avert a dark age of humanity by steering things through a mere few thousand years of darkness.
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Apr 8, 2024 02:32
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skasion posted:I’m struggling to think when in Dune we meet someone who’s actually good in any way. Maybe some of the random working class guys they meet while on the run in Heretics. Even then they’re mostly traumatized veterans helping out their temporarily embarrassed warlord Teg. The Shadout Mapes?
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Apr 8, 2024 02:38
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Vampire Panties posted:The Shadout Mapes? bootlicker
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Apr 8, 2024 02:42
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Vampire Panties posted:The Shadout Mapes? Mapes was seconds away from murdering Jessica in cold blood for not meeting the bullshit criteria of a fake prophecy.
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Apr 8, 2024 02:43
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skasion posted:I’m struggling to think when in Dune we meet someone who’s actually good in any way. Geoff the Fremen. He had some cool coffee cups. Perhaps... too cool.
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Apr 8, 2024 02:46
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Chani's friend seemed cool
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Apr 8, 2024 02:48
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StashAugustine posted:Chani's friend seemed cool miss not-in-the-book (she is in exactly 4 lines in the book, as a male. i'm not kidding about exactly 4 lines)
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Apr 8, 2024 02:50
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Geoff the Fremen. He had some cool coffee cups. Perhaps... too cool. I was a friend of Geoff
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Apr 8, 2024 02:51
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The reason that Paul willed the jihad into existence (or at least the reason he tells himself) is that the body count from the jihad is somehow less than every other alternative he sees. It’s the least bad option and his tragedy is that he still has to own the responsibility for a holocaust. It’s the same as Leto II’s justification for his regime- as bad as it is, it’s necessary for the ultimate survival of the species. Imo one of the weaknesses of the books is it’s genuinely unclear whether Herbert believes this psycho utilitarian nonsense.
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Apr 8, 2024 03:02
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Bijaz is the only moral center of the whole series.
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Apr 8, 2024 03:06
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Spazzle posted:I know it's said that dune is a counterpoint to the foundation series. But at the end, they both have psychic future seers avert a dark age of humanity by steering things through a mere few thousand years of darkness. Hardly a contradiction there. A fun counterpoint is to do the same things, in broad strokes at least, but change the emphasis.
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Apr 8, 2024 03:18
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bob dobbs is dead posted:miss not-in-the-book Wait really? What are the lines, and how are you sure it's the same character? She was cool as gently caress. Just sassing Paul all the time and she even gives him his cool new nickname. I was legitimately sad when Feyd cooked her alive.
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Apr 8, 2024 03:27
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Mister Speaker posted:Wait really? What are the lines, and how are you sure it's the same character? only similarity is the name. male gender. quote:"Shishakli has your hooks," Stilgar said. "He’ll hand them to you as you step out onto that dune over there." He pointed to his right. "Call a big maker, Usul. Show us the way." so one spoken line. after that, nothing souhelia yacoub, who plays fem-shishakli, is also the only actor of arab descent with spoken lines in multiple scenes. zendaya is half-nigerian and javier bardem is canarian islander (a buncha islands, which it must be said, is spanish and literally a few miles from the north african coast. but still spanish). bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Apr 8, 2024 |
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Apr 8, 2024 03:31
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Jewmanji posted:The reason that Paul willed the jihad into existence (or at least the reason he tells himself) is that the body count from the jihad is somehow less than every other alternative he sees. It’s the least bad option and his tragedy is that he still has to own the responsibility for a holocaust. It’s the same as Leto II’s justification for his regime- as bad as it is, it’s necessary for the ultimate survival of the species. Imo one of the weaknesses of the books is it’s genuinely unclear whether Herbert believes this psycho utilitarian nonsense. Yeah having just read up to God Emperor for the first time, I don't really know what to think about all this. You can read it as full throated support for the necessity of an authoritarian guiding hand, the opposite of that, or just about some stuff he saw while doing psychedelics.
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Apr 8, 2024 03:33
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I feel like good or ill the point is that perfect prescience makes you a weird inhuman monster. In the movie both Paul and Jessica go psycho once they drink the water
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Apr 8, 2024 03:53
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Isn't it the genetic memories that make you go nuts?
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Apr 8, 2024 04:08
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Mister Speaker posted:Wait really? What are the lines, and how are you sure it's the same character? tbh I was surprised that he made it that quick
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Apr 8, 2024 04:27
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Mister Speaker posted:Wait really? What are the lines, and how are you sure it's the same character? Yeah she went out like a G. I was expecting to hate the alterations to the plot but she was a total badass. I wish she'd survived into the final movie.
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Apr 8, 2024 04:32
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Jewmanji posted:The reason that Paul willed the jihad into existence (or at least the reason he tells himself) is that the body count from the jihad is somehow less than every other alternative he sees. It’s the least bad option and his tragedy is that he still has to own the responsibility for a holocaust. It’s the same as Leto II’s justification for his regime- as bad as it is, it’s necessary for the ultimate survival of the species. Imo one of the weaknesses of the books is it’s genuinely unclear whether Herbert believes this psycho utilitarian nonsense. I maintain that the Golden Path is a lie, self justifying bullshit thrown out to keep Paul/Leto 2 in power. "No, really, humanity is doooooooomed unless you do what I say."
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Apr 8, 2024 04:45
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pthighs posted:Yeah having just read up to God Emperor for the first time, I don't really know what to think about all this. You can read it as full throated support for the necessity of an authoritarian guiding hand, the opposite of that, or just about some stuff he saw while doing psychedelics. For all that Dune has Paul tell himself the jihad is bad and could be avoided if he's in charge, and Messiah calls him mega-Hitler, Children has Leto II tell him off about how they both know he didn't let the jihad go far enough to ensure humanity's survival. Going off one of Paul's first trips where he taps into humanity's collective genetic consciousness and sees everyone getting too inbred on their planets or whatever, I guess the idea is that the jihad or an equivalent explosion of violence would have been a natural and necessary remedy to the empire's enforced stagnation if it weren't for prescient interference.
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Apr 8, 2024 04:58
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Dune is foundational literature for effective altruists.
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Apr 8, 2024 06:02
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skasion posted:Kynes is Fremen and definitely a pant making GBS threads psycho killer like the rest of them, on top of which his and his dad’s terraforming plan was lunatic poo poo. It’s a feasibility study hopped up on the light version of Muad’dib’s cult, combined with zero sense of political perspective. Did he really think the rest of the universe was going to just sit back for the next few hundred years and let the Fremen destroy galactic civilization to turn Arrakis green? Kynes was imperial planetologist and Judge of the change, not a Fremen, but married to one. My reading is he was an offworlder (The emperor would never appoint a Fremen to two important posts) who had gone native. Also Chani's dad. (Was that in the films?)
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Apr 8, 2024 06:44
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yaffle posted:Kynes was imperial planetologist and Judge of the change, not a Fremen, but married to one. My reading is he was an offworlder (The emperor would never appoint a Fremen to two important posts) who had gone native. Also Chani's dad. (Was that in the films?) There are two Kynes, Pardot the senior, who was from off-world and helped to start the fremen terraforming project, and Liet the younger, who we meet in the book and was appointed judge of the change. Liet is Pardot's son and is essentially fremen.
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Apr 8, 2024 06:56
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No Pants posted:For all that Dune has Paul tell himself the jihad is bad and could be avoided if he's in charge, and Messiah calls him mega-Hitler, Children has Leto II tell him off about how they both know he didn't let the jihad go far enough to ensure humanity's survival. lmao I love the idea that an entire planet is just too small that everyone was becoming "too inbred"
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Apr 8, 2024 09:12
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I cannot stress enough how important it is to read Dune as a complete story in itself without any sequels when trying to figure out what Herbert was saying. I love Dune despite some of it's flaws and consider it to be an immensely & objectively astounding novel that has inspired sci-fi and other forms of storytelling since it's publication. However, while I find the sequels fun, and even interesting sometimes, none of them are anywhere close to Dune and also kind of muddle the message...a lot. The Golden Path is stupid, and the entire character of Leto II is fun to read about but also really loving stupid. Having re-read that book enough times, I THINK Herbert never meant for us to take what Leto II was saying seriously. That it was just a continuation of his thesis, "Don't loving put all your trust in cults of personality" taken to a turbo-Hitler level just to hammer home how bad doing that could be. But, unfortunately, the overwhelming consensus within the zeitgeist of Dune series readers is that Leto II was being entirely truthful and that all of this was totally necessary to avert some worse end. And that completely ruins the point of the first book, which was that "great men" will make people do horrible things to bring about their personal ambitions. I'm about to nerd-trap hard here, but watching the discourse at the end of Attack on Titan reminded me a of God Emperor and the Golden Path, where it was really obvious that the creator meant for the horror to mean one thing (and even had the main character stare right at the screen to tell you that everything he did was pointless) and yet an immense number of people read the ending as meaning that "bad things (genocide) just have to be done to prevent maybe bad things happening in the future." EDIT: I'm also being vague here so as not to spoil AoT. priznat posted:Feyd-Rautha knocking up Lady Fenring was only after the fact stuff in the failson’s novels right? I’m disappointed in you Denis No. That's straight from the original novel. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Apr 8, 2024 |
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Apr 8, 2024 09:19
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Anonymous Zebra posted:No. That's straight from the original novel. Indeed, but Denis did add the pain box to this in a move that made me and a few friends of mine wonder if we misremembered the book.
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Apr 8, 2024 20:20
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