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The Guardian is usually an ok source. But on this particular conflict, this time round, they need to be squinted at a lot. They've been a willing partner in the revolting push to weaponise accusations of anti-semitism against critics of Israel in the UK. It started with their attacks on Jeremy Corbyn when he lead the Opposition, and reached a nadir when they fired their own cartoonist of over 40 years immediately after October 7th for an 'anti-semitic' depiction of Netanyahu. It was the same caricature he'd been doing for years, the difference was that criticising Netanyahu or Israel was now a fireable, and character assassinating, offence.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 16:57 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 05:14 |
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:The Guardian is usually an ok source. But on this particular conflict, this time round, they need to be squinted at a lot. They've been a willing partner in the revolting push to weaponise accusations of anti-semitism against critics of Israel in the UK. It started with their attacks on Jeremy Corbyn when he lead the Opposition, and reached a nadir when they fired their own cartoonist of over 40 years immediately after October 7th for an 'anti-semitic' depiction of Netanyahu. It was the same caricature he'd been doing for years, the difference was that criticising Netanyahu or Israel was now a fireable, and character assassinating, offence. The firing was bullshit but it wasn't because his caricature of Netanyahu was suddenly unacceptable. It was because he had a depiction of Netanyahu with a scalpel cutting out the outline of the Gaza strip on his stomach. The cartoonist was referencing an old American cartoon with LBJ showing off a Vietnam shaped scar, but the Guardian said it was a Merchant of Venice Shylock reference (pound of flesh). Source: https://apnews.com/article/guardian-cartoonist-steve-bell-fired-netanyahu-75cc62a62bbb0defc61854325cf28850 I'd upload the cartoons but the Awful app imgur upload doesn't work anymore
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 17:13 |
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:The Guardian is usually an ok source. But on this particular conflict, this time round, they need to be squinted at a lot. They've been a willing partner in the revolting push to weaponise accusations of anti-semitism against critics of Israel in the UK. Of late I've been sighing at WaPo, particularly Ruth Marcus. Pity poor weak Israel, poor poor Israel
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 17:21 |
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Al Jazeera. If I’m not mistake , Israel has also finally made the last push to outlaw Al Jazeera and boot them out of the country. Of course, this is the perfect time to do that and is not at all going to put gas on the fire.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 19:30 |
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One of my colleagues, who's very pro-Israel, has been trying to get me to read a book called, and I poo poo you not, 'The Genius of Israel', basically talking about Israel is doing everything better than every other western democracy, I read this review from a typically pro-Israel site and even there they have qualms:quote:But Senor and Singer neglect the fact that Israel’s pronatalism is also underpinned by a deep anxiety about demographics, the same anxiety that compels the Israeli government to incentivise Jewish immigration from the Diaspora. This anxiety stems from the knowledge that if Israel is to remain both Jewish and democratic — and, though this is usually left unsaid, if Israel is one day to formally annex the occupied Palestinian territories — it is a matter of existential importance that Israeli Jews have as many babies as possible. The authors also wrote a best selling book called 'Start-up nation', reading that sounds like a uniquely insufferable combination of tech-bro worship and ultra Zionism, my personal idea of hell.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 20:29 |
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An interview in the New Yorker by Isaac Chotiner with Sarah Elaine Harrison, a senior analyst in the U.S. program at the International Crisis Group, previously an associate general counsel in the international-affairs division at the Department of Defense. I'm going to quote a series of questions at the end that put forth the idea that the current US aid to Israel is in violation of US law. Bolded sections are the questions by Chotiner.quote:We were texting a couple of days ago about setting up the interview, and you said that Biden’s stated policy to not condition aid “inhibits U.S. officials from objectively applying these laws and policies that relate to international human law compliance.” What did you mean by that? That was striking to me. For all the new talk in Congress about conditioning future aid to Israel, there are already requirements in the existing laws that place conditions on all military aid to foreign countries that seem like they aren't being followed with regards to Israel. So it would appear that any future conditions would have the same issue: without an enforcement mechanism short of democrats supporting impeachment (which is wildly implausible), it still all comes down to what Biden wants to have happen.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 21:01 |
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Sir Kodiak posted:For all the new talk in Congress about conditioning future aid to Israel, there are already requirements in the existing laws that place conditions on all military aid to foreign countries that seem like they aren't being followed with regards to Israel. So it would appear that any future conditions would have the same issue: without an enforcement mechanism short of democrats supporting impeachment (which is wildly implausible), it still all comes down to what Biden wants to have happen. This might be more of a USPOL question, but is there a path through the courts to get an injunction?
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 21:22 |
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KillHour posted:This might be more of a USPOL question, but is there a path through the courts to get an injunction? The short answer is no. There’s a bunch of reasons for that but the court isn’t going to step in on a matter of foreign policy.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 21:39 |
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KillHour posted:This might be more of a USPOL question, but is there a path through the courts to get an injunction? This is not my area of the law, so take this with a grain of salt. But to my understanding, ordinary citizens wouldn't have a cause of action due to not personally suffering any harm. And the courts are hesitant to get into lawsuits between Congress and the executive branch, given that the impeachment remedy exists for illegal acts by the president, as unrealistic as actually using it might be. That's why my point with regards to posting the interview is not that the potential illegality of the aid gives some angle to stopping it, but that any future conditions are only binding on Biden if he's willingly looking for a new justification for halting aid. If Congress wants to stop aid until certain conditions are met, it's going to need to wait to provide aid until those conditions have been met in its own determination.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 21:39 |
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Liz Warren believes that Israel is committing genocide https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/08/israel-gaza-war-elizabeth-warren-00151120#: quote:“If you want to do it as an application of law, I believe that they’ll find that it is genocide, and they have ample evidence to do so,” Warren said of the case before the ICJ. i think the dam has broken and Israel will never ever recover. It can no longer be considered a safe refuge, nor can it be considered anything other than a brutal apartheid state, even by libs and centrists who have otherwise defended it to this point.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 21:41 |
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*Liz Warren believes the ICJ ongoing legal procedures will find Israel is committing genocide, but this is not representative of her personal opinion on whether Israel is engaging in genocide.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 21:54 |
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Conspiratiorist posted:*Liz Warren believes the ICJ ongoing legal procedures will find Israel is committing genocide, but this is not representative of her personal opinion on whether Israel is engaging in genocide. What an odd nitpick. She stated that Israel will be found to have committed genocide by a competent court, *and* that there's plenty of evidence to support the finding. She might disagree with he definition of genocide under the Convention, or the competence of the ICJ, but otherwise that pretty much "yeah, they did it and there's proof"
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 22:20 |
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Rust Martialis posted:What an odd nitpick. She stated that Israel will be found to have committed genocide by a competent court, *and* that there's plenty of evidence to support the finding. Yeah, the article also contains this: quote:At the mosque, Warren said the focus on the war in Gaza should go beyond a “labels argument.” And the clarification was from a spokesperson, not Warren herself: quote:A spokesperson for Warren said in a statement to POLITICO Monday that the senator “commented on the ongoing legal process at the International Court of Justice, not sharing her views on whether genocide is occurring in Gaza.” Seems like she's trying to avoid the criticisms and accusations that come with affirmatively using the term "genocide" while also avoiding denying that one is happening. I have to wonder if that's not her being too clever by half with it, but she's the senator so maybe it really is a useful dodge.
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 22:29 |
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Irony Be My Shield posted:
Aid workers that were killed by IDF have changed their car twice. There were three drone strikes, each targeted at different car, all three cars were marked as international aid and the route of convoy was known to IDF. There is absolutely no way it was case of "targeting drat near everything that moves".
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 22:45 |
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e: wrong thread
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 22:49 |
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Szarrukin posted:Aid workers that were killed by IDF have changed their car twice. There were three drone strikes, each targeted at different car, all three cars were marked as international aid and the route of convoy was known to IDF. There is absolutely no way it was case of "targeting drat near everything that moves".
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# ? Apr 8, 2024 23:06 |
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World Central Kitchen was an organisation that Israel handpicked as 'the good ones' to prove a point about the evil UNRWA. Oh, we're not against allowing aid into Gaza, it just needs to be someone trustworthy, that sort of thing. Israel fully cooperated with them, WCK informed Israel about their routes, their vans were clearly marked, etc. What seems to be happening is IDF soldiers and officers operating in Gaza have no idea and/or don't care what is politically a red line and do, indeed, bomb whatever they see with the assumption that they, as always, can say that there was a Hamas terrorist in the car. So my read is that Israel didn't intend to hit these particular aid workers, as they were the only ones supposed to be allowed to operate in Gaza without being hassled, even though they have absolutely no issue with hitting all others aid workers. And yes, it is doubly horrific that deaths of dozens of local aid workers over the past 6 months didn't prompt a similar diplomatic response, and it had to be aid workers from Western countries specifically.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 00:14 |
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as an institution, some portion of the leadership wanted to avoid killing those aid workers, but as a society they absolutely wanted them dead
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 00:18 |
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, the article also contains this: Warren would surely never triangulate her way into saying something useless
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 00:25 |
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punishedkissinger posted:as an institution, some portion of the leadership wanted to avoid killing those aid workers, but as a society they absolutely wanted them dead I might be mistaken, but with WCK specifically, the Israeli society at large, even those who hate anyone who helps Gazan civilians, understood that killing aid workers from the one org that is supposed to be untouchable, would reflect badly in the war effort. Now Israel is in the situation where they have to compromise on how much aid gets into Gaza, which is not ideal for that audience either. There is a level of competent pretence and pretend competence expected from the IDF to ensure that Israel can continue starving Gaza and the IDF failed to deliver on both.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 00:40 |
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punishedkissinger posted:as an institution, some portion of the leadership wanted to avoid killing those aid workers, but as a society they absolutely wanted them dead Remember the hostages who were shot whole shirtless, waving a white flag, and shouting in Hebrew? The IDF indiscriminately shooting everything that moves seems like it satisfies Occam's razor a bit better.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 00:42 |
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DeadlyMuffin posted:
Not trying to attack you, but what's the difference?
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 00:54 |
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Remember the hostages who were shot whole shirtless, waving a white flag, and shouting in Hebrew? I don't think that actually contradicts punishedkissinger. If you're not trying to do that then my apologies, but I do think that kissinger's explanation of the events makes the most sense as a response to Irony Be My Shield's question. quote:1. They deliberately went after the convoy in order to discourage future aid to Gaza. The WCK has announced that it's stopped operations following the strike. I do think that starvation has increasingly become a part of Israel's strategy for this war, and this would be a way to do that, although killing foreign aid workers seems like a worst diplomatic cost for them to incur than simply preventing them from entering in the first place. I also don't think Israel would want to spectacularly burn all bridges with an aid organisation when they're trying to push for such organisations to replace UNRWA. These aren't, strictly speaking, incompatible viewpoints. As you note, the starvation has been a part of Israel's strategy for the war and has become more and more significant over time, although there have always been elements of this in how Gaza and the West Bank have been treated. I also think that the diplomatic efforts which have been pushed to try to eject the UNRWA and worsen the starvation, as well as pointing at specific aid agencies like WCK to replace them even though they cannot possibly do so on short notice or for the amount of throughput required, has been part of the high-level strategy by some of the Israeli leadership. But none of the matters to the soldiers on the ground, who would have to see, understand, and agree with these higher-level machinations, or the society at large, which has much the same issue. I doubt that in the end there was ever any explicit order coming down from the top to kill these aid workers, specifically. I just think that the Israelis want to kill everyone in Gaza, and the people in charge of actually doing the shooting know that they will not be punished - and are usually even rewarded - for doing so, no matter how heinous the action. That's not really any better though, that's actually worse in a lot of ways! There's no way for them to say "don't target these people, they're safe/verified/aid workers/whatever" because as long as they're a living person in Gaza they're already a target.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 01:03 |
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BRJurgis posted:Not trying to attack you, but what's the difference? The difference between "as a society they absolutely wanted them dead" and "IDF is indiscriminately shooting everything that moves" is that the later is a statement about how the military is conducting itself, and the former is a blanket statement about all of Israeli society. There's good evidence that the IDF is indiscriminately killing. I don't think there's as good evidence that Israeli society as a whole wants to have foreign aid workers very visibly killed, and even many of the shittiest of them could probably see that doing so alienates the US and rest of the world even further. Maybe I'm wrong and Israeli society is lusting for aid worker blood, if so, I'm sure someone will post it. Edit ^^^^ I'm just saying I see Irony Be My Shield's #2 as more plausible than #1
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 01:07 |
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Another thing we missed during the thread closure is that the hospital the IDF use as a prison for arrested Gazans is even more utterly nightmarish than you can imagine.quote:A doctor at the field hospital set up at the Sde Teiman detention center to hold arrested Gazans described conditions that he said could compromise the inmates' health and put the government at risk of violating the law, in a letter sent last week to Israel's defense minister, health minister, and attorney general.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 01:18 |
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Ignore plz.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 01:37 |
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Has anything been able to be verified about exactly what happened at Al-Shifa? Many different accounts describing mass summary executions were reported by Palestinians who escaped/fled the area but I've seen almost nothing beyond that mentioned about it and little followup in "mainstream" western media sources, and it doesn't seem like there has been much investigation of the grounds even though Israel left a week ago, other than a couple people from WHO. It seems like at best the IDF was allowing troops to kill as they pleased, but based on some descriptions of survivors it sounds like the IDF may have had some sort of organized process of summary executions.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 04:16 |
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so, I mostly lurk and just want to get updates, but I heard about this reporting by +972 and found it a real interesting wrinkle in the way the IDF has been so glib to just murder everyone; because they’ve offloaded a great deal of decision and targeting to AI. https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ I don’t know +972 well as a jounalistic oppost, but they read legit and well sourced and this might explain some degree of the murder of the WCK aid workers because Isreali target designation is being rubber stamped after the AI says kill. It also adds another really unpleasant side to this war, as the IDF are training a Skynet and seem to be completely ok with the results. Anyway, just another happy addition to the seemingly never-ending litany of horrors this conflict seems to create. *edit* I forgot but for added misery, the acceptable limit for collateral damage is kinda truly staggering, like its fine to kill a whole building to get one guy. I know the US is pretty guilty of being indescrimanate in our targeted killings, but the difference in scale here is really excessive. Unwise_Cashew fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 06:21 |
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Netanyahu has doubled down on the plans to invade Rafah, a city in southern Gaza with 1.4 million current inhabitants, most of whom are refugees. This is after the United States told Israel that their their plan was unacceptable, due to Israel's lack of a viable evacuation plan, the subsequent likelihood of civilian casualties, and the humanitarian crisis that would be caused by cutting off aid being delivered to Rafah (called the "third famine crisis of the 21st century" by US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan). Whether Netanyahu's statement is to be taken as good faith, however, is debatable. This is not the first time in the past several months an invasion of Rafah has been threatened, and the supposed date was not actually specified, and it comes as Israel seeks leverage for negotiations. Koos Group fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 06:45 |
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My guess is that Israel may be waiting to see what Iran ends up doing in response to the extremely aggressive actions that Israel has taken, including bombing an Iranian embassy in Syria. It's still possible that Hezbollah gets involved in this conflict.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 06:54 |
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Unwise_Cashew posted:*edit* I forgot but for added misery, the acceptable limit for collateral damage is kinda truly staggering, like its fine to kill a whole building to get one guy. I know the US is pretty guilty of being indescrimanate in our targeted killings, but the difference in scale here is really excessive. From that article, it's somehow even worse than that. A draftee indicated it's not just a whole building to get one guy, but in one case four buildings to get one guy because they knew the target was in one of the buildings: quote:All the sources interviewed for this investigation said that Hamas’ massacres on October 7 and kidnapping of hostages greatly influenced the army’s fire policy and collateral damage degrees. “At first, the atmosphere was painful and vindictive,” said B., who was drafted into the army immediately after October 7, and served in a target operation room. “The rules were very lenient. They took down four buildings when they knew the target was in one of them. It was crazy. Hard to see it being more clear that for as much as they talk about it being a war against Hamas, every Palestinian was being punished for the attack.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 07:10 |
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The difference between "as a society they absolutely wanted them dead" and "IDF is indiscriminately shooting everything that moves" is that the later is a statement about how the military is conducting itself, and the former is a blanket statement about all of Israeli society. The charred bodies of the WCK workers were photographed and those photos were uploaded to yet another Israeli snuff telegram channel. I don’t want to post them here because it’s gore, but the comments are disgusting. I think there is a very high percentage of Israelis that will violently lash out at anything seen as “soft on the Palestinians” and that includes every single aid worker in the area celebrity-affiliated or not. The percent of people in the military with this view is likely even higher. Speaking from experience, these kinds of gross attitudes are always present in some proportion of your soldiers. If it metastasizes into the leadership you are done. “Shooting anything that moves” is far too charitable and makes it sound like some kind of defensive reflex, a more accurate description is gleeful killing. They wanted those workers dead and they thought they could get away with it. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 08:03 |
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not a value-add posted:The charred bodies of the WCK workers were photographed and those photos were uploaded to yet another Israeli snuff telegram channel. I don’t want to post them here because it’s gore, but the comments are disgusting. I think there is a very high percentage of Israelis that will violently lash out at anything seen as “soft on the Palestinians” and that includes every single aid worker in the area celebrity-affiliated or not. The percent of people in the military with this view is likely even higher.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 09:02 |
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It would only let the leadership off the hook if you presumed they didn't share those attitudes, and their genocidal statements suggest that they do.DeadlyMuffin posted:The difference between "as a society they absolutely wanted them dead" and "IDF is indiscriminately shooting everything that moves" is that the later is a statement about how the military is conducting itself, and the former is a blanket statement about all of Israeli society. I have detected a possibility you seem to have overlooked. It's possible that the motivation for killing aid workers is not 'lusting for aid worker death" (a strawman* if I've ever seen one, I don't think anyone has claimed Israel has a vendetta against charities for no reason), but rather a pragmatic decision to deter organizations attempting to deliver food to Gaza as part of a strategy to use starvation as a weapon in the siege. That is, I think, a much more believable potential motivation than "lusting for aid worker blood", no? E: * unintentional strawman of course, I believe you are engaging in good faith and just making a mistake VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 13:19 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 12:40 |
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm surprised you think my interpretation is charitable - I am attributing the attack to the IDF being systematically indiscriminate in its targeting, linking this to the incident where they shot 3 of their own escaped hostages. Your interpretation is more damning to the individuals involved, but if your position is that this attack was due to "gross attitudes [that] are always present in some proportion of your soldiers" then that's surely letting the wider culture of the IDF and Israel's political leadership off the hook - it's actually fairly close to the Israeli line that the strike was purely a failing of the officers involved and that all they need to do is punish them. I’ll elaborate: I think the indiscriminate targeting language covers up what really happens in a majority of incidents like these where the person pulling the trigger is not under any kind of imminent threat. This isn’t some guy putting the wrong coordinates in a spreadsheet or drawing circles around too many buildings, or anything else that could reasonably fall under an administrative mistake because that not how the approval process really works. Any airframe in particular is going to have a fairly long kill chain and strike approval process. Given the pictures of the event, and the completely clean hole punched in the roof of at least one of the targeted WCK vehicles, I’d bet good money that the munitions used in this particular strike had kinetic warheads. This means they don’t blow up. It’s an assassination weapon, the most famous American version is the Hellfire R9X which also features six fold out blades. This is a pretty unusual loadout, and using it three times on three successive vehicles, especially given the sheer number of people involved in approving air strikes, is not a mistake. But back to the kill chain. The person pulling the trigger is not the person making the engagement decision. It takes someone looking at the situation, ignoring the fact that their orders are going to break the law because “everyone who runs is a viet-cong,” or whatever variety of self-justifying murderous logic is relevant to the current conflict, and proceeding anyway. Calling it a targeting mistake hides its ugly nature behind sanitized language. This is where the cultural part comes in, and why anyone gaining more and more responsibility as they climb the ranks needs to proactively remove that kind of thinking, excuse making, and criminality from their formation. I don’t think it’s an indictment of the IDF that violent, immoral, racist, and so on types of people are fed into the system. I think this is inevitable, especially in a draft army, and ignoring it can leave you unprepared to deal with it appropriately. The problem with the IDF is how it processes these people, and instead of stamping these ideas out they have been allowed to fester and infect the mechanisms and positions that are supposed to lead and control their troops. It’s the same type of thing you might ask yourself when a corporate page posts something idiotically offensive; don’t they realize what a stupid idea this is? Don’t they think it will hurt their businesses? The answer here and there is simple: the supervisor thought it was funny too. A good example of the system working correctly is when people like Clint Lorance get 20 years in prison, not an administrative slap on the wrist. Which brings up a final point, that the IDF has not released any information on if the responsible officers were simply reassigned, as opposed from removed from the military or facing any sort of legal punishment. Personally, I doubt they’re facing anything like a courts martial or whatever the IDF equivalent is, if only because in my experience when real consequences start to come in the top brass immediately tries to pin the whole thing on some PV2. not a value-add fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 13:06 |
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VitalSigns posted:It would only let the leadership off the hook if you presumed they didn't share those attitudes, and their genocidal statements suggest that they do. In an entirely bloodless way, sure. Depends on how you feel about the phrase "gleefully lusting for starving Palestineans.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 13:19 |
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SpeakSlow posted:In an entirely bloodless way, sure. Depends on how you feel about the phrase "gleefully lusting for starving Palestineans. Sure I'm just pointing out that the argument from incredulity (surely Israeli leaders can't WANT pro-Palestinian charities dead!) doesn't actually rule out a deliberate targeting, because it is quite easy to identify the coldly rational motivation that would account for it, if one makes the effort.
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 13:35 |
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from a purely logical standpoint they shouldn't want to kill those aid workers, but it seems pretty clear from numerous statements that at least a large portion of the top leadership is in full bloodlust mode. of course if you're pro Israel, you think it's unreasonable for anyone to believe what the leadership or huge swathes of the grunts are openly saying. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 13:39 |
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punishedkissinger posted:from a purely logical standpoint they shouldn't want to kill those aid workers, but it seems pretty clear from numerous statements that at least a large portion of the top leadership is in full bloodlust mode. Ehhhh that depends on the assumptions they made. There is an obvious strategic benefit to murdering aid workers delivering food: it puts a stop to those food deliveries and is a deterrent to other aid groups as well. And there is an obvious risk: if it outrages world and possibly US opinion it could have diplomatic consequences and even military consequences if American lethal aid is threatened. So whether it is logical or not depends on what their estimates of the risk are. With what we know now, it would be illogical because the backlash was actually kinda bad. But, not having a crystal ball, they could easily have underestimated that. If they thought no one would care, not unreasonable given the tepid response to all the other atrocities they've committed, the attack would seem much more logical. But yeah, also humans are not necessarily rational especially in wartime. It wasn't logical to build pyramids of naked Iraqis at Abu-Ghraib, but well...
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# ? Apr 9, 2024 13:53 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 05:14 |
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VitalSigns posted:It would only let the leadership off the hook if you presumed they didn't share those attitudes, and their genocidal statements suggest that they do. I don't really see a difference between "as a society they absolutely wanted them [the aid workers] dead" and "Israeli society is lusting for aid worker blood". The former is a direct quote from punishedkissinger. I think you are missing context and addressing the wrong post by joining the conversation midway. Here you go: DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Apr 9, 2024 |
# ? Apr 9, 2024 14:13 |