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site posted:cap is two steps removed now since he's a mutant clone of the fake person the cosmic cube girl made Secret Empire was a mess, but that was the real Steve. He and Hydra Cap were switched at Pleasant Hill. All of Hydra Cap's life was in an alternate universe, he's not the real Steve.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:44
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no hyrda cap is the real cap. "good" steve was a figment of her imagination bucky convinced her to pull out into the real world
site fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 18:46
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NikkolasKing posted:Huh, X-23/Laura isn't even a clone of Logan anymore. that seems like a baffling change that changes nothing. I thought the clone stuff was settled, in the Agent Venom comics I just read it was confirmed Laura has own distinct soul. How does making her the product of in vitro fertilization change anything?
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Apr 7, 2024 18:47
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The real deciding factor if someone is actually Captain America is if they've ever been a werewolf. I don't make the rules, it is what it is.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:52
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The acid test is when he throws his mighty shield. Also, I figured this is why they were including Proteus or other reality distorter types in the resurrection process. I'm kind of surprised that never came up as some kind of 'actually it's kind of bad to constantly hammer on the fundamentals of reality however well-intentioned your purposes are' thing, but I didn't read every Krakoa comic.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:54
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site posted:no hyrda cap is the real cap That's kinda what I was getting at by bringing up Cap at all. This whole conversation about resurrection really gets to core of what makes a person a person. If it's the literal flesh that opens up a whole can of worms and maybe 60% of the Marvel Universe aren't the real people anymore. If it's the memories and life and existence of a person then Cap is and was the real Cap. Because the history of Hydra Cap didn't actually happen in this universe. He's technically from an alternate timeline because none of that stuff happened in the 616, he was birthed in a pocket universe and put in the flesh of someone in this universe. So it really comes down to what we consider to be a real person when it comes to a Marvel character.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:58
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Gripweed posted:that seems like a baffling change that changes nothing. I thought the clone stuff was settled, in the Agent Venom comics I just read it was confirmed Laura has own distinct soul. How does making her the product of in vitro fertilization change anything? What's that one Sam Jackson(?) quote that's sorta like "given that it was a stupid rear end decision, I'm choosing to ignore it". Most pointless retcon since "Tony Stark was actually adopted". I think the latter one came after but you get what I mean. I also choose to ignore literally everything to do with souls. Soul talk always derails these threads into weird hypotheticals and um-actuallys. e: Nessus posted:Also, I figured this is why they were including Proteus or other reality distorter types in the resurrection process. I'm kind of surprised that never came up as some kind of 'actually it's kind of bad to constantly hammer on the fundamentals of reality however well-intentioned your purposes are' thing, but I didn't read every Krakoa comic.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:59
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NikkolasKing posted:Huh, X-23/Laura isn't even a clone of Logan anymore. I think that's been true since one of the X-23 prequel minis. There were missing parts of Logan's DNA so Kiney used her own DNA to fill in those parts IIRC. And that was written by Yost, who created the character. X-O posted:Don't forget that Captain America is technically a clone now as well since he went through the Mutant Resurrection. Is he the only non mutant to go through it? i guess maybe Hydra Cap too since he became Captain Krakoa. At the end of AXE Krakoa says they will use the resurrection protocols on non mutants like 5% of the time they use it on mutants, so there's a non zero number of just regular humans that are resurrected. Also Scarlet Witch was resurrected during Trial of Magneto (kinda shocked they haven't undone the retcon of her and Quicksilver not being mutants). Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 19:04
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So is Laura still ethnically Canadian?
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Apr 7, 2024 19:07
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I'm reasonably sure Steve Rogers kept his original body up until relatively recently. Red Skull is where the real Ship of Theseus poo poo kicks in. Based on current continuity: The Red Skull died in WWII, but it was a decoy and the real Red Skull was put into suspended animation. At least one Red Skull cropped up while the original was in stasis. The 'real' Skull killed him eventually. Eventually the Red Skull started aging/decaying rapidly and tried to take Steve Rogers with him but instead died a shriveled old man in Steve's arms. He eventually resurfaced as "John Smith", a government agent who was behind the original "Steve loses the Shield and John Walker gets it" storyline. He was resurrected in a clone of Steve Rogers's body, though by the end of the story he's revealed as a Nazi and his face is scarred into an actual Red Skull. Then Red Skull got another Cosmic Cube and tried to use it but it exploded and killed him. But his mind was kept alive inside the Cosmic Cube and he rebuilt a body with cosmic powers, though he eventually got depowered and sent back to Earth. So he infiltrated the US government again this time as "Dell Rusk", but was eventually revealed and he got his jaw punched off, but got better. But then he got assassinated by the Winter Soldier. BUT he used a different Cosmic Cube to transfer his mind into Alexsander Lukin, a Russian oligarch who hired WS to kill him to steal that very Cosmic Cube. Then Sharon Carter shot and killed Lukin, but Red Skull jumped into a robot body. He used that robot body to enact a scheme where he'd jump his brain into Steve Rogers's body, but that was thwarted and instead the robot body became a giant robot body, which got destroyed and he was definitely dead for real this time. EXCEPT then Selene and the Power Elite resurrected Alexsander Lukin, who still had some of Red Skull's brain inside him. And Red Skull eventually took over that body. And eventually Bucky tracked down the new Lukin/Skull and killed him. Except Red Skull had other clone bodies to jump into across the world, but then Bucky and the Thunderbolts killed all of those Red Skulls too. This is not to be confused with the other Red Skull clone, who got awakened after his giant robot self was killed, and only had memories up until 1942. That Red Skull stole Charles Xavier's corpse and smooshed Xavier's brain on top of his own, giving him psychic powers. Clone Xavierbrain Skull eventually became RED ONSLAUGHT. Eventually that Red Skull had Xavier's brain removed from being plopped on top of his brain and Xavier's brain was thrown into the sun so Clone Skull couldn't re-steal it. That Clone Skull was the one who tricked an entirely different Cosmic Cube into altering reality to make Steve Rogers a Nazi, though it was a weird monkey's paw wish where the specific wish was that Mr. Skull and Mr. Steve would be friends. This did not work out, as Nazi Steve murdered the Clone Red Skull.
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Apr 7, 2024 19:08
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Gripweed posted:So is Laura still ethnically Canadian? Being Canadian is only passed down through the mother so maybe not.
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Apr 7, 2024 19:26
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Spider-Man died and like went to heaven, so I just assumed current Peter Parker is just a soulless husk (a la Strong Guy in X-Factor)
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Apr 7, 2024 20:09
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Peter could never hope to be as cool as Guido
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Apr 7, 2024 20:11
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X-O posted:Don't forget that Captain America is technically a clone now as well since he went through the Mutant Resurrection. Is he the only non mutant to go through it? i guess maybe Hydra Cap too since he became Captain Krakoa. They mentioned in the last Galla that they had started raising humans so there has to be a few others out there but all off screen.
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Apr 7, 2024 21:34
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Everyone died back in 1976 when Baron Mordo destroyed the Earth, but Dr. Strange convinced Eternity to create a new Earth and accelerate its development so it would match the one that was destroyed. Nobody except Strange is the original.
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Apr 8, 2024 04:15
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Angry Salami posted:Everyone died back in 1976 when Baron Mordo destroyed the Earth, but Dr. Strange convinced Eternity to create a new Earth and accelerate its development so it would match the one that was destroyed. Nobody except Strange is the original. Wasn't that earth destroyed in Secret Wars? I don't think Strange was one of the survivors of that, so there's actually no continuity from pre-1976 Marvel and post 2016 Marvel
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Apr 8, 2024 04:18
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So Excalibur is an Apocalypse book? Only a couple issues into it and his prsence and prominence is very surprising. Granted, I'm just a wiki warrior who read his wikipedia summaries way back in the 2000s or so but I never thought he had much to do with magic. I dunno, between him and Gambit, this might be more interesting than I thought, and I'll actually enjoy reading it for X of Swords. X-Men and Marauders 1 were way better than Excalibur 1, though, IMO.  So that's the source of his very unique hair.
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Apr 8, 2024 08:54
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NikkolasKing posted:So Excalibur is an Apocalypse book? Only a couple issues into it and his prsence and prominence is very surprising. Granted, I'm just a wiki warrior who read his wikipedia summaries way back in the 2000s or so but I never thought he had much to do with magic. I'm pretty sure his connection to magic started with the Krakoa Excalibur book. And while he's heavily featured in it, it's really a Betsy Braddock book.
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Apr 8, 2024 09:00
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NikkolasKing posted:So that's the source of his very unique hair. I don't want Fop, god drat it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
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Apr 8, 2024 09:35
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NikkolasKing posted:So Excalibur is an Apocalypse book? Only a couple issues into it and his prsence and prominence is very surprising. Granted, I'm just a wiki warrior who read his wikipedia summaries way back in the 2000s or so but I never thought he had much to do with magic. Once Apocalypse drops from the book it turns mostly bad. It it a shame because of all the good characters in it. I honestly wish it could just have been a Captain Britain/Rachel Summers slice of life romance title and not the weird magic stuff nobody cares about mess it ends up being. Jamie Braddock is cool at least.
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Apr 8, 2024 14:23
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Party Boat posted:I don't want Fop, god drat it! I'm a Dapper Dan man! Ain't Krakoa a geographical oddity! Two
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Apr 8, 2024 18:50
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Jamie Braddock is cool at least.  This seems to be alluding to something I read a lot about on r/xmen, about Scott/Jean/Logan being in a throuple, which the house plans in X-Men 1 hinted at strongly. But I've also been told all these hints and implications are dropped after Hickman/"Dawn of X" stuff. It's a strange thing - I've heard both that Hickman had the most creative idea for Krakoa, and yet also the most destructive. I've been told the early stories deal the most radically with the unique situation of a mutant society, things like mutant specific ethics and religion. (That latter part really fascinates me and if anybody knows what comics deal with it, please let me know.) Yet the Age of Krakoa only lasted this long supposedly because of editorial, Hickman wanted to kill it off sooner. What a strange combination of things, almost contradictory it sounds like.
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Apr 9, 2024 00:42
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Way of X is the comic that deals with mutant religion.
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Apr 9, 2024 01:24
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NikkolasKing posted:
it lasted longer because all of the other writers wanted to keep it going, not editorial.
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Apr 9, 2024 01:33
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Air Skwirl posted:Way of X is the comic that deals with mutant religion. Soonmot posted:it lasted longer because all of the other writers wanted to keep it going, not editorial. Fair enough and thank you. I got a ways to go before Way of X.
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Apr 9, 2024 01:37
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NikkolasKing posted:
It's not so much that it was dropped as just never really focused on. The writers ended up just writing whichever relationship was more relevant for the plot, which for most was Scott/Jean. Only Percy's Wolverine and maybe X-Force spent any time on Logan/Jean. Other than Way of X noting a spike in babies on Krakoa, none of the books really focus on what relationships are like on Krakoa outside of the usual, monogamous-passing couples. And that issue of Way of X was heavily criticized.
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Apr 9, 2024 18:10
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Hickman said in an interview that when he was pitching Krakoa regarding romantic relationships he said either we just have some hard and fast set in stone ones or everyone is loving everyone, and Marvel told him to go with the latter.
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Apr 9, 2024 18:40
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Air Skwirl posted:Hickman said in an interview that when he was pitching Krakoa regarding romantic relationships he said either we just have some hard and fast set in stone ones or everyone is loving everyone, and Marvel told him to go with the latter. I've also heard Hickman said in an interview Emma is still involved with Scott, making it a square I guess, but this is reflected in no actual comic. glitchwraith posted:It's not so much that it was dropped as just never really focused on. The writers ended up just writing whichever relationship was more relevant for the plot, which for most was Scott/Jean. Only Percy's Wolverine and maybe X-Force spent any time on Logan/Jean. Other than Way of X noting a spike in babies on Krakoa, none of the books really focus on what relationships are like on Krakoa outside of the usual, monogamous-passing couples. And that issue of Way of X was heavily criticized. Hm, interesting. Why was it criticized? I mean, making babies is one of the first laws of Krakoa, and Rogue kinda has a thing about it in the early Excalibur issues.
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Apr 9, 2024 18:47
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Because it wasn't just that people were making babies, it was specifically that there was an epidemic of people having babies and abandoning them in random bushes around the island
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Apr 9, 2024 18:58
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site posted:Because it wasn't just that people were making babies, it was specifically that there was an epidemic of people having babies and abandoning them in random bushes around the island
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Apr 9, 2024 19:16
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site posted:Because it wasn't just that people were making babies, it was specifically that there was an epidemic of people having babies and abandoning them in random bushes around the island This, and despite Krakoa having not really existed long enough for this many babies to have been pumped out. Stacy X of all people notices the problem and solves it by having her brothel double as an orphanage. Nightcrawler is also written uncharacteristically prudish. Worst of all, though, is a side plot where Legion, a notably straight, cis man, acts as a psychic go between for a young lesbian couple who's sex life is being complicated by one of their mutant abilities. This becomes traumatic for both after the series villain interferes, and the plot is never really brought up again.
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Apr 9, 2024 19:19
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I forgot about that lol that book sure was something
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Apr 9, 2024 19:32
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Oh my god
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Apr 9, 2024 19:56
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there's a curse on 2000AD writers who transition to american comics where the longer they do it, their comics go from being hosed up and nonsensical (positive) to hosed up and nonsensical (derogatory) i liked a lot of Si Spurrier's stuff so i was excited for Way of X and then it sucked huge, and from what i hear his Flash run isn't winning anyone over
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Apr 9, 2024 19:59
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Alaois posted:there's a curse on 2000AD writers who transition to american comics where the longer they do it, their comics go from being hosed up and nonsensical (positive) to hosed up and nonsensical (derogatory) His writing works a lot better with John Constantine, for sure.
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Apr 9, 2024 20:23
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Yeah that was a huge whiff. If I remember right Spurrier admitted he was way off the mark with that. I think most of his X stuff was decent but kind of trying way too hard. More if it should have been like Uncanny Spider-Man.
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Apr 9, 2024 20:32
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WoX #3 was the low point of his X-Men work, and seemed to suffer from him writing too far outside of his wheelhouse. Usually his comics just suffered from cramming too many big ideas into to little comic space, muddling his plots. Focusing just on Nightcrawler in Uncanny Spider-Man helped tremendously. Also, his X-Men: Blue, while mostly just implementing Claremont's original idea for Nightcrawler's parents, was executed very well.
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Apr 9, 2024 20:48
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Alaois posted:there's a curse on 2000AD writers who transition to american comics where the longer they do it, their comics go from being hosed up and nonsensical (positive) to hosed up and nonsensical (derogatory) It has its fans but personally 'body horror' is not so much what one thinks of the Flash especially following after what was an amazing back to basics run previously for Wally who desperately needed it.
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Apr 9, 2024 21:14
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At least Si Spurrier was trying things with his books. They didn’t always work, but it was better than Excalibur and X-Factor and other forgettable stuff. Duggan’s X-men run took ages to get motoring. It’s great now but at the start it felt pretty vanilla.
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Apr 9, 2024 21:44
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Milotic posted:At least Si Spurrier was trying things with his books. They didn’t always work, but it was better than Excalibur and X-Factor and other forgettable stuff. Duggan’s X-men run took ages to get motoring. It’s great now but at the start it felt pretty vanilla. I think they where all trying. Excalibur, though not everyone's cup of tea, did some interesting world building, and was apparently successful in channeling that old Captain Britain weirdness. X-factor had a really good premise, but was perhaps a little too decompressed. Duggan's X-Men has been fine, but limited itself with it's voting gimmick. Having the team change every real life year doesn't give a whole lot of breathing room for plots and team interaction, but there are plenty of fun comics sprinkled in there. I actually think the winding down in Fall of X has hurt Duggan's book the most.
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Apr 9, 2024 22:16
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