[Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

Cerebral Bore posted:

chess is just tic tac toe for tryhards

there areless than 100 tic tac toe grandmasters in the us

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:10

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# ? May 26, 2024 16:52

The337th: Mar 30, 2011

brokenwookie posted:

The answer to Kasparov vs Average Joe is the match would last forever.

Nah

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:13

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

Atrocious Joe posted:

https://twitter.com/CENTCOM/status/1777650918512828481?t=ex2sKNZ4x2raeqkbf7B4VQ&s=19

CENTCOM bragging about allegedly sending stolen weapons shipments meant for Yemen to Ukraine.

500,000 rounds of small arms ammunition is pretty close to nothing

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:35

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

VoicesCanBe posted:

500,000 rounds of small arms ammunition is pretty close to nothing

hey that's 3 natgeos per rifle

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:39

supersnowman: Oct 3, 2012

VoicesCanBe posted:

500,000 rounds of small arms ammunition is pretty close to nothing

100 bullets/ "supplied" AK if none of the bullets goes to machine guns or sniper rifles.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:41

Organ Fiend: May 21, 2007; custom title

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

All these problems, John Ralston Saul argues, are largely the result of our blind faith in the value of reason.

This is because Reason can not be used to generate values. It can only operate in the context of them.

You can't reason why a human life has value. Because its unique? Valuing uniqueness is just another value. You can use logic and reason to determine the consequences, from a policy and morality standpoint, of human life having value, but that's it. You can use science to determine how to genetically modify humans in the womb, but science can't tell you whether that's a good or bad idea. You can use historical analysis to determine how and why certain events occurred, but it can't tell you whether those events were moral, justified, or desirable.

Western Liberals like to believe that they have no 'values'; that they only believe in absolute truths derived from pure logic. This is how they make themselves feel superior to everyone else. "The masses are guided by emotion, but we are guided by pure logic and science and therefore our views are absolutely true and absolutely superior." If they admitted that they too are driven by values and beliefs, they would be forced to confront the fact that they are not morally and intellectually superior than the masses and they would be forced to confront what exactly their beliefs and values are.

But they don't, and so we have the logical contradictions of Western Liberal democracy.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:44

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

well let�s hope ukriane has a bunch of new recruits ready to be equipped with sea guns

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:44

ProperGanderPusher: Jan 13, 2012

IQ tests basically just reflect puzzle solving ability, so I�m not surprised people obsessed with the idea of raw genetic intelligence equate chess and Rubik�s cube skills with being an all-around genius.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:44

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Phigs posted:

I find it hard to bet against any person who is designated the MASTER OF TIME in a given scenario.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:50

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Organ Fiend posted:

This is because Reason can not be used to generate values. It can only operate in the context of them.

You can't reason why a human life has value. Because its unique? Valuing uniqueness is just another value. You can use logic and reason to determine the consequences, from a policy and morality standpoint, of human life having value, but that's it. You can use science to determine how to genetically modify humans in the womb, but science can't tell you whether that's a good or bad idea. You can use historical analysis to determine how and why certain events occurred, but it can't tell you whether those events were moral, justified, or desirable.

Western Liberals like to believe that they have no 'values'; that they only believe in absolute truths derived from pure logic. This is how they make themselves feel superior to everyone else. "The masses are guided by emotion, but we are guided by pure logic and science and therefore our views are absolutely true and absolutely superior." If they admitted that they too are driven by values and beliefs, they would be forced to confront the fact that they are not morally and intellectually superior than the masses and they would be forced to confront what exactly their beliefs and values are.

But they don't, and so we have the logical contradictions of Western Liberal democracy.

I really appreciate this, because being around these people causes me a sort of psychic pain and you really eloquently articulated why.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 15:50

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Organ Fiend posted:

This is because Reason can not be used to generate values. It can only operate in the context of them.

You can't reason why a human life has value. Because its unique? Valuing uniqueness is just another value. You can use logic and reason to determine the consequences, from a policy and morality standpoint, of human life having value, but that's it. You can use science to determine how to genetically modify humans in the womb, but science can't tell you whether that's a good or bad idea. You can use historical analysis to determine how and why certain events occurred, but it can't tell you whether those events were moral, justified, or desirable.

Western Liberals like to believe that they have no 'values'; that they only believe in absolute truths derived from pure logic. This is how they make themselves feel superior to everyone else. "The masses are guided by emotion, but we are guided by pure logic and science and therefore our views are absolutely true and absolutely superior." If they admitted that they too are driven by values and beliefs, they would be forced to confront the fact that they are not morally and intellectually superior than the masses and they would be forced to confront what exactly their beliefs and values are.

But they don't, and so we have the logical contradictions of Western Liberal democracy.

i frequently think about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem when people go on too much about pure Reason and Logic. godel proved that every mathematical system was either incomplete (or incorrect). if the most formal models of logic always depend on the assumption of outside axioms then there's no way you're going to arrive at some capital T Truth with your lovely little appeals to Liberalism

# ? Apr 9, 2024 16:23

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Somewhat related, it seems like 19th century Germans reasoned themselves into accidentally creating Poles, like Dr Yakub.

Colonial Fantasies, Imperial Realities: Race Science and the Making of Polishness on the Fringes of the German Empire, 1840�1920

In Colonial Fantasies, Imperial Realities, Lenny Ure�a Valerio offers a transnational approach to Polish-German relations and nineteenth-century colonial subjectivities. She investigates key cultural dynamics in the history of medicine, colonialism, and migration that bring Germany and Prussian Poland closer to the colonial and postcolonial worlds in Africa and Latin America. She also analyzes how Poles in the German Empire positioned themselves in relation to Germans and native populations in overseas colonies. She thus recasts Polish perspectives and experiences, allowing new insights into identity formation and nationalist movements within the German Empire.

Crucially, Ure�a Valerio also studies the medical projects and scientific ideas that traveled from colonies to the German metropole, and vice versa, which were influential not only in the racialization of Slavic populations, but also in bringing scientific conceptions of race to the everydayness of the German Empire. As a whole, Colonial Fantasies, Imperial Realities illuminates nested imperial and colonial relations using sources that range from medical texts and state documents to travel literature and fiction. By studying these scientific and political debates, Ure�a Valerio uncovers novel ways to connect medicine, migration, and colonialism and provides an invigorating model for the analysis of Polish history from a global perspective.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 16:33

DragQueenofAngmar: Dec 29, 2009; You shall not pass!

SplitSoul posted:

supposedly Mao had his commanders study wei qi (or go or baduk), and the generals of imperial china had all studied it for thousands of years (the first extant board is from like 2000 BC or something). on the other hand the game experienced a decline due to some criticism during the cultural revolution, though it was never banned. china has only recently become strong in wei qi again (although now that they have returned to the game they�ve handily stomped japan in the international scene and are duking it out with (south) korea for the top spot), although some of that was just due to being shut out of the scene for political reasons for many years

fun game, too. probably a lot of posters in this and the ww3 thread would enjoy it

# ? Apr 9, 2024 17:15

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

An indoor pass time other than dice and cards probably is useful for your officer/mandarin/intelligentsia class to not become debauched, inveterate gamblers.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 17:19

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

in short rationality without materialism is just a way to invent new and innovative kinds of dumb poo poo

Megamissen posted:

there areless than 100 tic tac toe grandmasters in the us

there's thousands of chess gm:s , so clearly tic tac toe is a lot harder then

# ? Apr 9, 2024 17:20

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Zelensky has started drinking heavily and hard narcotics use. He will not be around much longer.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 17:23

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 11 hours!

Nonsense posted:

Zelensky has started drinking heavily and hard narcotics use. He will not be around much longer.

zelenskiing on slopes

# ? Apr 9, 2024 17:25

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019; Can't post for 11 hours!

# ? Apr 9, 2024 17:26

fizziester: Dec 21, 2023

Source: CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl/index.html

Ukraine �will lose the war� if US fails to approve aid, says Zelensky
By Christian Edwards and Maria Kostenko, CNN
Updated 9:33 PM EDT, Mon April 8, 2024
3 minute read

Ukraine �will lose the war� if the United States Congress does not approve military aid to help it resist Russia�s invasion, President Volodymyr Zelensky said.

�It�s important to specifically address the Congress: if the Congress doesn�t help Ukraine, Ukraine will lose the war,� Zelensky said Sunday during a video meeting of the Ukrainian fund-raising group UNITED24.

�If Ukraine loses this war, other countries will be attacked. This is a fact,� he said.

Zelensky�s warning, among his starkest since the war began more than two years ago, comes as Congress has for months refused to pass a package of aid for Ukraine, leaving Kyiv to battle manpower and ammunition shortages while an emboldened Russia pounds Ukraine�s cities with missiles and tests for weak spots along the front line.

The US Senate passed a $95.3 billion foreign aid bill with assistance for Ukraine and Israel in February, but House Speaker Mike Johnson has so far refused to hold a vote on passing the package for Ukraine.

Zelensky previously told CNN that �millions� could die in Ukraine�s war with Russia if US lawmakers do not approve the aid package.

When Russia launched its invasion in February 2022, it thought it would take Kyiv in days and the rest of the country in weeks. In what proved to be a disastrous miscalculation for Moscow, Ukraine repelled the initial assault on its capital and, later in 2022, reclaimed some of the territories overrun by Russia.

The frontlines have since been largely static, with Russia continuing to occupy around a fifth of Ukraine�s territory. Despite optimism that Ukraine could reclaim more of its occupied territories, its counteroffensive in the summer of 2023 failed to significantly pierce Russia�s defenses. Ukraine�s then-Commander in Chief conceded the war had entered a �stalemate.�

Since the start of this year, Russia � enjoying a huge advantage in manpower and technology � has attempted to seize the initiative, bombarding Ukraine�s cities with missiles and forcing Ukraine to retreat from the eastern town of Avdiivka.

Franz-Stefan Gady, an associate fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, told CNN the war in Ukraine had entered a �transitional phase.�

�Russia is conducting probing attacks along the front line. It is trying to advance where it can. And it is preparing what seems to be a future offensive down the road,� he said.

While European countries have tried to replace US aid, Gady said there was �no substitute� for the support Washington can provide.

�This year, Ukraine really needs US support. There�s certain weapons systems, certain logistical support which the European countries simply cannot provide to Ukraine� such as air defense systems, he said...

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:02

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

fizziester posted:

Source: CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl/index.html

Ukraine �will lose the war� if US fails to approve aid, says Zelensky
By Christian Edwards and Maria Kostenko, CNN
Updated 9:33 PM EDT, Mon April 8, 2024
3 minute read

Ukraine �will lose the war� if the United States Congress does not approve military aid to help it resist Russia�s invasion, President Volodymyr Zelensky said.

�It�s important to specifically address the Congress: if the Congress doesn�t help Ukraine, Ukraine will lose the war,� Zelensky said Sunday during a video meeting of the Ukrainian fund-raising group UNITED24.

�If Ukraine loses this war, other countries will be attacked. This is a fact,� he said.

Zelensky�s warning, among his starkest since the war began more than two years ago, comes as Congress has for months refused to pass a package of aid for Ukraine, leaving Kyiv to battle manpower and ammunition shortages while an emboldened Russia pounds Ukraine�s cities with missiles and tests for weak spots along the front line.

The US Senate passed a $95.3 billion foreign aid bill with assistance for Ukraine and Israel in February, but House Speaker Mike Johnson has so far refused to hold a vote on passing the package for Ukraine.

Zelensky previously told CNN that �millions� could die in Ukraine�s war with Russia if US lawmakers do not approve the aid package.

When Russia launched its invasion in February 2022, it thought it would take Kyiv in days and the rest of the country in weeks. In what proved to be a disastrous miscalculation for Moscow, Ukraine repelled the initial assault on its capital and, later in 2022, reclaimed some of the territories overrun by Russia.

The frontlines have since been largely static, with Russia continuing to occupy around a fifth of Ukraine�s territory. Despite optimism that Ukraine could reclaim more of its occupied territories, its counteroffensive in the summer of 2023 failed to significantly pierce Russia�s defenses. Ukraine�s then-Commander in Chief conceded the war had entered a �stalemate.�

Since the start of this year, Russia � enjoying a huge advantage in manpower and technology � has attempted to seize the initiative, bombarding Ukraine�s cities with missiles and forcing Ukraine to retreat from the eastern town of Avdiivka.

Franz-Stefan Gady, an associate fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, told CNN the war in Ukraine had entered a �transitional phase.�

�Russia is conducting probing attacks along the front line. It is trying to advance where it can. And it is preparing what seems to be a future offensive down the road,� he said.

While European countries have tried to replace US aid, Gady said there was �no substitute� for the support Washington can provide.

�This year, Ukraine really needs US support. There�s certain weapons systems, certain logistical support which the European countries simply cannot provide to Ukraine� such as air defense systems, he said...

hmm, sounds like Ukraine is getting stabbed in the back

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:04

DaysBefore: Jan 24, 2019

fizziester posted:

Source: CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/08/europe/ukraine-lose-war-us-congress-zelensky-intl/index.html

Ukraine �will lose the war� if US fails to approve aid, says Zelensky
By Christian Edwards and Maria Kostenko, CNN
Updated 9:33 PM EDT, Mon April 8, 2024
3 minute read

Ukraine �will lose the war� if the United States Congress does not approve military aid to help it resist Russia�s invasion, President Volodymyr Zelensky said.

�It�s important to specifically address the Congress: if the Congress doesn�t help Ukraine, Ukraine will lose the war,� Zelensky said Sunday during a video meeting of the Ukrainian fund-raising group UNITED24.

�If Ukraine loses this war, other countries will be attacked. This is a fact,� he said.

Zelensky�s warning, among his starkest since the war began more than two years ago, comes as Congress has for months refused to pass a package of aid for Ukraine, leaving Kyiv to battle manpower and ammunition shortages while an emboldened Russia pounds Ukraine�s cities with missiles and tests for weak spots along the front line.

The US Senate passed a $95.3 billion foreign aid bill with assistance for Ukraine and Israel in February, but House Speaker Mike Johnson has so far refused to hold a vote on passing the package for Ukraine.

Zelensky previously told CNN that �millions� could die in Ukraine�s war with Russia if US lawmakers do not approve the aid package.

When Russia launched its invasion in February 2022, it thought it would take Kyiv in days and the rest of the country in weeks. In what proved to be a disastrous miscalculation for Moscow, Ukraine repelled the initial assault on its capital and, later in 2022, reclaimed some of the territories overrun by Russia.

The frontlines have since been largely static, with Russia continuing to occupy around a fifth of Ukraine�s territory. Despite optimism that Ukraine could reclaim more of its occupied territories, its counteroffensive in the summer of 2023 failed to significantly pierce Russia�s defenses. Ukraine�s then-Commander in Chief conceded the war had entered a �stalemate.�

Since the start of this year, Russia � enjoying a huge advantage in manpower and technology � has attempted to seize the initiative, bombarding Ukraine�s cities with missiles and forcing Ukraine to retreat from the eastern town of Avdiivka.

Franz-Stefan Gady, an associate fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, told CNN the war in Ukraine had entered a �transitional phase.�

�Russia is conducting probing attacks along the front line. It is trying to advance where it can. And it is preparing what seems to be a future offensive down the road,� he said.

While European countries have tried to replace US aid, Gady said there was �no substitute� for the support Washington can provide.

�This year, Ukraine really needs US support. There�s certain weapons systems, certain logistical support which the European countries simply cannot provide to Ukraine� such as air defense systems, he said...

drat if their entire war effort is hinging on unlimited support from a political unreliable 'ally' then it sounds unsustainable and they should surrender to stop the needless killing

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:08

VoicesCanBe: Jul 1, 2023; "Cóż, wygląda na to, że zostaliśmy łaskawie oszczędzeni trudu decydowania o własnym losie. Jakże uprzejme z ich strony, że przearanżowali Europę bez kłopotu naszego zdania!"

If Ukraine achieves its maximalist goal of 1991 borders and NATO membership they'll still be a financial colony of the West with no future.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:10

supersnowman: Oct 3, 2012

VoicesCanBe posted:

If Ukraine achieves its maximalist goal of 1991 borders and NATO membership they'll still be a financial colony of the West with no future.

Yeah but Putin would be massively embarrassed so totally worth it!!!

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:13

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

DragQueenofAngmar posted:

supposedly Mao had his commanders study wei qi (or go or baduk), and the generals of imperial china had all studied it for thousands of years (the first extant board is from like 2000 BC or something). on the other hand the game experienced a decline due to some criticism during the cultural revolution, though it was never banned. china has only recently become strong in wei qi again (although now that they have returned to the game they’ve handily stomped japan in the international scene and are duking it out with (south) korea for the top spot), although some of that was just due to being shut out of the scene for political reasons for many years

fun game, too. probably a lot of posters in this and the ww3 thread would enjoy it

I may have only been half-joking when I made a few posts in the old thread describing the situations in bakhmut and snake island in go terms.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:31

CongoJack: Nov 5, 2009; Ask Why, Asshole

what city is Putin going to choose as his WAAAGH target this summer?

# ? Apr 9, 2024 18:34

Officer Sandvich: Feb 14, 2010

https://twitter.com/WarVehicle/status/1777752634234900932

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:07

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Officer Sandvich posted:

https://twitter.com/WarVehicle/status/1777752634234900932

NAFO is not taking this well

https://x.com/kitsjux/status/1777761199788351693

Artillery, the one thing Ukraine definitely doesn't need.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:14

Organ Fiend: May 21, 2007; custom title

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

I really appreciate this, because being around these people causes me a sort of psychic pain and you really eloquently articulated why.

If my posts on a dead gay internet forum help you or anyone else get through the day, then I'm happy they did.

crepeface posted:

i frequently think about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem when people go on too much about pure Reason and Logic. godel proved that every mathematical system was either incomplete (or incorrect). if the most formal models of logic always depend on the assumption of outside axioms then there's no way you're going to arrive at some capital T Truth with your lovely little appeals to Liberalism

There's some kind of fundamental truth, I think, that I'm not well read or educated enough to fully articulate. Its about how a system can not fully characterize every aspect of itself.

Like, I was watching that series DEVS, which posits the idea of a quantum computer that can fully simulate, in a predictive fashion, all of reality. This is theoretically possible, as if you had information on the state of every single particle in reality, you could predict what they'd do and what they'd done just by applying the laws of physics and the passage of time. However, I don't think its possible for such a device to exist because the device itself is part of the system. You'd then need another device to store state information about the first device, and so on and so on. You end up with an infinite recursion problem.

I think that this for physics, the incompleteness theorem for mathematics, and the fact that logic can't sort out values, is all connected in some way. Something about how a system must be based on fundamental axioms/laws/whatever that are not defined by/above the system itself.

But like I said, I'm not educated enough to make this coherent.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:15

bedpan: Apr 23, 2008

ukraine probably should have named the storage facility something else if they didn't want it bombed. "Ukrainian Howitzer and Truck Storage" doesn't leave much to the imagination.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:15

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

NAFO is not taking this well

https://x.com/kitsjux/status/1777761199788351693

Artillery, the one thing Ukraine definitely doesn't need.

well it's 152mm which is Russian so it's inferior, can 152mm even kill a person? I'm guessing it can break an arm and thats if it even goes off

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:18

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

I think parking them indoors might have been more prudent

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:18

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

here is my 9001 word spectator article where I explain how Russia has already lost the war because of inferior Chinese tires. I am paid by the word.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:20

ProperGanderPusher: Jan 13, 2012

VoicesCanBe posted:

If Ukraine achieves its maximalist goal of 1991 borders and NATO membership they'll still be a financial colony of the West with no future.

I think they�re hoping for expanded borders, especially after they march on Moscow. Many of the Banderites literally see this war as a rematch of Barbarossa and have all sorts of twisted ideas of what they�d love to do to Russians if they win.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:30

Engorged Pedipalps: Apr 21, 2023

Flournival Dixon posted:

Do these wierdos really think that anyone relevant thinks America should have been involved in vietnam and that this is a winning comparison to make? even the loving boomer liberals don't really think that poo poo anymore.

A conversation I've had with a friend before is that non-physical competitive games like chess or video games or math means that people end up dedicating way more time and practice to it because their bodies don't give out like they would if you tried to do football practice or deadlifting for 12 hours a day every day. I dunno if that makes them "harder" but i think it's a different form of practice and competition.

A key difference between chess and many other games of tactics and skill is that chess is a solved game where all moves and all counter moves have already been explored. The people who win at chess are people who extensively practice the ongoing metagame and memorize board positions. There's a skill involved here, but I don't think it's one that's applicable to any other part of life or a particular indicator of intelligence

Edit:, correcting myself here, chess is partially solved rather than completely with all games past a certain point having an essentially determined outcome, that said, I think you would be extremely hard pressed to come up with a play sequence in chess today that wasn't well documented and explored more than a hundred years before you were born

Engorged Pedipalps has issued a correction as of 20:06 on Apr 9, 2024

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:31

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

the most interesting thing about chess skill isn't the memorization, but the emergence of a higher order dynamic that is, measurably, qualitatively different. very good chess players don't rely on just knowing which move is good against what, they start to perceive a field of possible moves that lets them plan many steps ahead in a way you simply can't do without chess brain.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:38

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

*ahem* Go is the superior game

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:40

Engorged Pedipalps: Apr 21, 2023

Zodium posted:

the most interesting thing about chess skill isn't the memorization, but the emergence of a higher order dynamic that is, measurably, qualitatively different. very good chess players don't rely on just knowing which move is good against what, they start to perceive a field of possible moves that lets them plan many steps ahead in a way you simply can't do without chess brain.

I think that's true of most players of most competitive games

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:41

DragQueenofAngmar: Dec 29, 2009; You shall not pass!

crepeface posted:

I may have only been half-joking when I made a few posts in the old thread describing the situations in bakhmut and snake island in go terms.

I wasn�t following the old thread but lol, got a link to the post?

Regarde Aduck posted:

*ahem* Go is the superior game

been saying this

# ? Apr 9, 2024 19:56

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

ProperGanderPusher posted:

I think they�re hoping for expanded borders, especially after they march on Moscow. Many of the Banderites literally see this war as a rematch of Barbarossa and have all sorts of twisted ideas of what they�d love to do to Russians if they win.

"In regards to Ukraine (also known as "Little Russia"), Toynbee rejected both home rule and a federal solution for Ukraine. Toynbee's objection to the federal solution stemmed from his fear that a federated Russia would be too divided to have a unifying center of gravity and would thus be at risk of fragmentation and breaking up just like the United States previously did for a time during its own civil war. In place of autonomy, Toynbee proposed making the Ukrainian language co-official in the Great Russian parts of the Russian Empire so that Ukrainians (or Little Russians) could become members of the Russian body politic as Great Russians' peers rather than as Great Russians' inferiors.Toynbee also argued that if the Ukrainian language were not able to become competitive with Russian even if the Ukrainian language were to be given official status in Russia, then this would prove once and for all the superior vitality of the Russian language (which, according to Toynbee, was used to write great literature while the Ukrainian language was only used to write peasant ballads)."

and, before Ukrainians object, here's why he deserves a fair hearing:

Meeting Hitler

While on a visit in Berlin in 1936 to address the Law Society, Toynbee was invited to a private interview with Adolf Hitler at Hitler's request. During the interview, which was held a day before Toynbee delivered his lecture, Hitler emphasized his limited expansionist aim of building a greater German nation, and his desire for British understanding and co-operation with Nazi Germany. Hitler also suggested Germany could be an ally to Britain in the Asia-Pacific region if Germany's Pacific colonial empire were restored. Toynbee believed that Hitler was sincere and endorsed Hitler's message in a confidential memorandum for the British prime minister and foreign secretary.
Toynbee presented his lecture in English, but copies of it were circulated in German by Nazi officials, and it was warmly received by his Berlin audience who appreciated its conciliatory tone. Tracy Philipps, a British 'diplomat' stationed in Berlin at the time, later informed Toynbee that it 'was an eager topic of discussion everywhere'.Back home, some of Toynbee's colleagues were dismayed by his attempts at managing Anglo-German relations.

Though on the other hand:

Poland

In regards to Poland, Toynbee advocated for the creation of an autonomous Poland under Russian rule (specifically a Poland in a federal relationship with Russia and that has a degree of home rule and autonomy that is at least comparable to that of the Austrian Poles) that would have put the Russian, German, and Austrian Poles under one sovereignty and government. Toynbee argued that Polish unity would be impossible in the event of an Austro-German victory in World War I since a victorious Germany would be unwilling to transfer its own Polish territories (which it views as strategically important and still hopes to Germanize) to an autonomous or newly independent Poland.

Upper Silesia, Posen Province, and western Galicia

Toynbee also proposed giving most of Upper Silesia, Posen Province, and western Galicia to this autonomous Poland and suggested holding a plebiscite in Masuria (as indeed ultimately occurred in 1920 with the Masurian plebiscite) while allowing Germany to keep all of West Prussia, including the Polish parts that later became known as the Polish Corridor (while, of course, making Danzig a free city that the autonomous Poland would be allowed to use).

Austria-Hungary

In regards to Austria-Hungary, Toynbee proposed having Austria give up Galicia to Russia and an enlarged autonomous Russian Poland, give up Transylvania and Bukovina to Romania, give up Trentino (but not Trieste or South Tyrol) to Italy, and give up Bosnia, Croatia, and Slovenia so that newly independent states can be formed there.

...

After 1960, Toynbee's ideas faded both in academia and the media, to the point of seldom being cited today. In general, historians pointed to his preference of myths, allegories, and religion over factual data. His critics argued that his conclusions are more those of a Christian moralist than of a historian.

...

Eban believed Toynbee's reading of Jews and Judaism was through a Christian lens that coloured his view of Zionism and the state of Israel. By characterizing Judaism as a morally primitive belief-system based on the idea of Jews as a "master race," and then asserting that Jews' claim to Israel is based on this premise, Toynbee figures Zionism as "kindred to Nazism." On the other hand, Toynbee argues that by failing to accept their fate as a diaspora community and trying instead to replace the "traditional Jewish hope of an eventual Restoration of Israel to Palestine on God's initiative through the agency of a divinely inspired Messiah," Zionist Jews have the same "impious" relationship to their religion as Communists do to Christianity. Eban claims that having thus equated Zionism with both Nazism and Communism, Toynbee asserts:

On the Day of Judgement, the gravest crime standing to the German National Socialists' account might be, not that they had exterminated a majority of the Western Jews, but that they had caused the surviving remnant of Jewry to stumble.

...

In 1952, he argued that the Soviet Union had been a victim of Western aggression. He portrayed the Cold War as a religious competition that pitted a Marxist materialist heresy against the West's spiritual Christian heritage, which had already been foolishly rejected by a secularised West. A heated debate ensued, and an editorial in The Times promptly attacked Toynbee for treating communism as a "spiritual force".

e: Although, according his biography, this motherfucker ducked out of the Great War because he felt sickly and he liked loving his wife too much. (Not an exaggeration, their letters survive)

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 20:05 on Apr 9, 2024

# ? Apr 9, 2024 20:03

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Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

On the Day of Judgement, the gravest crime standing to the German National Socialists' account might be, not that they had exterminated a majority of the Western Jews, but that they had caused the surviving remnant of Jewry to stumble.

# ? Apr 9, 2024 20:12

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