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Mad episode. My OCD is going to miss this show's level of finery.
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Apr 9, 2024 11:47
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| # ? May 23, 2024 12:54 |
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loving lamo at the priest's face falling when he sees the new neighbors
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Apr 9, 2024 11:56
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That was such a beautiful moment 
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Apr 9, 2024 12:02
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Mauser posted:loving lamo at the priest's face falling when he sees the new neighbors Toranaga, the most excellent troll. This part of the story, i think, has less of a Blackthorne-shaped void in it (where all his good scenes are cut for three episodes) and it works.
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Apr 9, 2024 12:30
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Ballz posted:I was hoping for a bit more interaction between Blackthorne and his crew. Was that guy he encountered supposed to be the fictional counterpart for Jan Joosten? Because if it was, Shogun did him dirty (literally). Me too. It was such a sad moment in the book, but also well done in showing how far Blackthorne had come. And I think the Jan Joosten guy in the book is named Vinck? This guy was Sullivan? That might mean nothing though. And I am starting to suspect (DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU READ THE BOOK FOR THIS IS DEFINITELY HAPPENING IN EP. 9 or 10) they are going to make Omi take on Yabu's role at Osaka Castle. They're just tellegraphing Omi's "Man, screw this!" reactions too clearly. But if they stick with the book, it's going to be a gut punch for Yabu fans. It was fun seeing Edo, and thinking that there is probably now a Starbucks where Blackthorne's house was. Also, first time seeing Mount Fuji in the show, even if it was just in the background. Not only that, they were living with Eta, the butchers, poo poo collectors and overall untouchables of society, and the crew thought these folks were the only Japanese that were cool. Which furthered Blackthorne's disgust. Though I've heard that Clavell played a little fast and loose with how Eta/Burakumin were of that era, so maybe the show decided to not bother.
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Apr 9, 2024 13:49
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Also, I like the little weebier-than-you moment between Blackthorne and Alvito. No, father, ackshually I was not asking for firewood, ghah! Do you even kno~w the kanji for high-grade charcoal produced from ubame oak?
Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 14:03
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Buntaro is written and acted well because he is a piece of poo poo as a husband and all around vicious man but his inner turmoil is palpable and I feel sorry for him.
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Apr 9, 2024 14:36
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Much improved episode from the previous. I still feel like some of the structural changes from the book are a little, I dunno, small brained, but I get the basic intent to put things that were in the character's heads in the book up on the screen. Just going to another location really helped and I'm glad we finally did.Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Not only that, they were living with Eta, the butchers, poo poo collectors and overall untouchables of society, and the crew thought these folks were the only Japanese that were cool. Which furthered Blackthorne's disgust. Though I've heard that Clavell played a little fast and loose with how Eta/Burakumin were of that era, so maybe the show decided to not bother. That was a pretty predictable cut for both historical accuracy and good taste reasons, I think the way the eta are depicted in the book is felt to be borderline offensive. Maybe not even borderline No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 15:19
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Shogun - Lower than boiling, but higher than being eaten by dogs.
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Apr 9, 2024 16:11
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Not a bad actor that Hiroyuki Sanada I'll say
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Apr 9, 2024 16:17
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Anyone knows how the series is being received in Japan so far?
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Apr 9, 2024 16:20
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Popoto posted:Anyone knows how the series is being received in Japan so far? It's pretty popular. It's significantly better and more respectful of the culture than the 1980 version, and they went through a lot of trouble to consult with Japanese experts on costumes, history, dialogue/speech, etc. One of the experts noted that the original scripts were very western-centered but the showrunners really took the advice they were getting and changed almost everything.
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Apr 9, 2024 16:28
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The tea ceremony scene was a "we did our homework" flex.
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Apr 9, 2024 17:18
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No Mods No Masters posted:That was a pretty predictable cut for both historical accuracy and good taste reasons, I think the way the eta are depicted in the book is felt to be borderline offensive. Maybe not even borderline It was, but that's more on the research material that Clavell used than his personal shortcomings. It wasn't until within the last 20 years or so that Eta or Hinin started being viewed as unacceptable slurs in the general populace for the Burakumin and their descendants. Even when Clavell was writing Shogun if it was discovered someone was a member of the ethnic group it would mean the death of their career and expulsion from religious communities. It wasn't until the late 70s that Japan passed a law barring consulting the government's genealogical records for employment checks.
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Apr 9, 2024 17:25
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I unfortunately had Hiromatsu's death partially spoiled by some prick of a Youtuber who decided to upload a scene with a spoiler title an hour after the episode became publicly available, so that was cool. OTOH, the acting in that scene was absolutely perfect. It really does feel like like two lifelong friends going "Will you please back down you obstinate poo poo", and it takes on a whole new layer with Toranaga's tacit admission to Mariko that he and Hiromatsu pretty much planned the whole thing. I appreciate the acting/writing that humanize Toranaga. IIRC in the books he's cold, calculating and essentially sees his closest retainers as pieces on a game board. In this portrayal, he has the self-control to make necessary sacrifices but you can see the effort it takes him to maintain the facade of defeat and heartless calculation. Definitely an improvement. Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Also, I like the little weebier-than-you moment between Blackthorne and Alvito. No, father, ackshually I was not asking for firewood, ghah! Do you even kno~w the kanji for high-grade charcoal produced from ubame oak? I took that as Alvito hearing him say "I don't want firewood" and making a point to join in with "Oh yeah, my dumbass friend here would LOVE some firewood". Either way it's a good scene, and I like how they portrayed Blackthorne being fairly fluent with one phrase and then completely lost in another conversation. Jerusalem posted:Holy poo poo. I loved Yabu's instant switch from indignation to pure 
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Apr 9, 2024 17:51
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at him, ahaha
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Vorenus posted:It really does feel like like two lifelong friends going "Will you please back down you obstinate poo poo", and it takes on a whole new layer with Toranaga's tacit admission to Mariko that he and Hiromatsu pretty much planned the whole thing. Where are you getting that Hiromatsu was involved in planning? There's no overt reference to it in the show and I don't see any implication that it was part of a planned act. Is it a book thing or something I missed in the episode? Based solely on the TV source material, if the writers wanted to show Toranaga as cold, calculating and inhuman, allowing Hiromatsu to commit seppuku as part of his strategy to demonstrate submission is very effective. I don't see the writers humanizing him at all.
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Apr 9, 2024 18:47
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Mantle posted:Where are you getting that Hiromatsu was involved in planning? There's no overt reference to it in the show and I don't see any implication that it was part of a planned act. Is it a book thing or something I missed in the episode? I definitely came away with that impression also, so not just that poster. I don't have the episode ready to hand right now to be sure, it's not overly stated, but I believe toranaga strongly implies it when he's talking to mariko at the end
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Apr 9, 2024 19:29
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I took the "knew his duty" line as at least both of them knew Toranaga's true intentions and Hiromatsu playing a role to support the surrender ruse. This especially in light of Hiromatsu correctly deducing that Toranaga was sending the priest back to Osaka to tell everyone how submissive and defeated he is. Then again, I could be completely misreading it. I still think there's a lot of emotion in that scene and to me it reads as Toranaga really not wanting things to go this way but at the same time it does serve his purposes. I mean, he's still an rear end in a top hat - he refused Mariko's request for suicide because he still has other uses for her, and he could have ordered Hiromatsu not to commit suicide but it's useful to him so he allows it.
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Apr 9, 2024 19:31
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My take is that Hiromatsu suspected Toranaga was going to fight. Still, his clan was about to fall apart when the Edo generals were a stroke short of open rebellion due to what appeared to be surrender. He committed suicide to silence the opposition. The way it is shot, it is clear that Toranaga is struggling with the fact that it has to go down with Hiromatsu's death. It goes back to the "three hearts" theme from episode 1.
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Apr 9, 2024 19:43
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Also hearkens back to Toranaga's line to his son in episode 3 that an ally is just someone that hasn't had a reason to betray you yet. Hiromatsu was the one person Toranaga would've bent that rule for
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Apr 9, 2024 20:04
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The whole series has been a struggle to keep his dudes in check (and I would guess also to stop his dip poo poo Anjin-sama from blurting poo poo out loud in front of listening ears). I don't understand how this current action by Hiromatsu furthers that agenda, exactly, but I'd love to hear an explanation. I think it's more just for Osaka's benefit as others have been saying. I read the book when I was a teenager and it's quite hazy at this point.
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Apr 9, 2024 20:14
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The book is not very much help in this convo anyway because what goes down with hiromatsu in this one is entirely a show invention. In the book he survives to the end
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Apr 9, 2024 20:24
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No Mods No Masters posted:The book is not very much help in this convo anyway because what goes down with hiromatsu in this one is entirely a show invention. In the book he survives to the end Yeah, in the book he repeatedly begs Toranaga to let him commit suicide if they're that hosed and defeated already rather than bear the shame of watching Toranaga meekly submit until finally Toranaga pulls him aside and says 'stop loving begging to kill yourself, I have a plan dipshit, but if you let on that you know I have a plan, the plan is cooked' but he doesn't really have any story relevance after the immediately following events iirc
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Apr 9, 2024 20:37
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I don't think it was strictly planned. Hiromatsu had absolute faith in Toranaga's will to fight, so he correctly decided that it was a ruse. When he sees the other vassals getting rowdy he decides to shut them up by forcing Toranaga to kill him - if Toranaga is willing to execute his closest ally for that then further protesting is pointless, and it helps the kayfabe of the whole operation. Toranaga understands what Hiromatsu's going for but is helpless to dissuade him from going through it because the plan falls apart if he backs down. They might have planned it in advance but it reads more as a spur of the moment's decision on both of their parts, cemented by the two men's understanding each other's position and the inevitability of it all.
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Apr 9, 2024 21:00
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:The tea ceremony scene was a "we did our homework" flex. They even brought in a tea ceremony specialist for it. And that's not a joke.
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Apr 9, 2024 21:02
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YaketySass posted:I don't think it was strictly planned. Hiromatsu had absolute faith in Toranaga's will to fight, so he correctly decided that it was a ruse. When he sees the other vassals getting rowdy he decides to shut them up by forcing Toranaga to kill him - if Toranaga is willing to execute his closest ally for that then further protesting is pointless, and it helps the kayfabe of the whole operation. Toranaga understands what Hiromatsu's going for but is helpless to dissuade him from going through it because the plan falls apart if he backs down. They might have planned it in advance but it reads more as a spur of the moment's decision on both of their parts, cemented by the two men's understanding each other's position and the inevitability of it all. I rewatched it and agree with this. Hiromatsu is basically saying all of you shut the gently caress up while your superiors are going to have this fight for you
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Apr 10, 2024 00:07
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That was my read too, Hiromatsu figured out what Toranaga was doing, realized that it needed an extra push to make even his staunchest supporters believe, and so put up his own life because he believes in Toranaga that much. Toranaga figured out what he was doing and committed himself to doing it even though it painfully hurt him to do so. It also adds yet another dimension to Hiromatsu refusing Buntaro's request to kill himself after seconding him, because not only is he giving Buntaro a taste of his own medicine re: Mariko, but he knows Toranaga will need a warrior of such skill and experience as Buntaro for the battle ahead. God I can't wait for the next episode!
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Apr 10, 2024 00:19
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Jerusalem posted:That was my read too, Hiromatsu figured out what Toranaga was doing, realized that it needed an extra push to make even his staunchest supporters believe, and so put up his own life because he believes in Toranaga that much. Toranaga figured out what he was doing and committed himself to doing it even though it painfully hurt him to do so. . Why though? Like I get what you are saying here but any kind of plan he has is predicated on some outside support. So, someone knows what he is up to and could squeal, but he has to let his bestie suicide to keep up the ruse because ???? Feels like the writers wanted to have some spicy drama after 3 episodes of snoozing but the ruse stuff has left a pretty bad taste in my mouth.
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Apr 10, 2024 01:14
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I thought it fit perfectly with the common tropes of samurai history/drama. Seppuku as a form of protest was not unheard of. A top retainer committing seppuku in an attempt to shock the daimyo into action would send a powerful message both to the lord and the other retainers. In this case Hiromatsu and Toranaga are both "in" on it, but the other retainers don't know that. It's not without historical precedent either, one of of Oda Nobunaga's senior retainers did something similar early in his reign.
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Apr 10, 2024 01:21
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shirunei posted:Feels like the writers wanted to have some spicy drama after 3 episodes of snoozing but the ruse stuff has left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I mean the entire thing is definitely all about externalizing in a filmable dramatic way what is mostly an internal mental quandry of people questioning toranaga's feints in the book
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Apr 10, 2024 01:22
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My read (and again, this is pure speculation) is that Hiromatsu felt that Ishido wouldn't believe Toranaga was completely cowed, especially given his generals were still wearing armor and were actively refusing to sign his formal surrender and agree to give themselves up to Osaka. By sacrificing himself, he thought (and Toranaga apparently did too) that this would hammer home to the Generals that Toranaga was serious and there was so secret plot, so they basically had no choice but to give up too. It also meant that Yabu would take up Blackthorne's offer to work together, and if Yabu shows up to Osaka trying to curry favor with Ishido while handing over the cannons it is going to further sell to Ishido that Toranaga is so defeated that all of his allies - particularly Yabu who is constantly sniffing out opportunities for himself - are resigned to Toranaga surrendering. The barbarian abandoning the Lord who kept him alive all this time adds to that as well. And we see earlier in this episode that Ishido is already basically mostly believing he's won anyway. It's Ochiba who has reminded him that they can't think they've won until Toranaga has his face pressed down in submission directly in front of them, and the entire time he's still not in Osaka is time that he could be planning some way to turn things around. Piling on all this other evidence that Toranaga is done is likely to further Ishido's desire to move forward thinking he's triumphed, especially given Ochiba bowing to him after the death of the Taiko's wife seems to indicate she is going to accept his marriage proposal, so he's basically already in victory/celebration mode (not that Toranaga knows this, but it was suggested to him this episode that an alliance with Ochiba would instantly turn the tables on Ishido). Again again, this is speculation, this is what I think they were thinking, and I'm really looking forward to seeing if I was right or something else entirely was up.
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Apr 10, 2024 01:26
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If I had to guess, the final ruse is that Ochiba has been working with Toranaga all this time. Yabushige will deliver guns and cannons directly to Osaka, where they will be used to mount an attack on the castle.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:15
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So blackthorne can order food and household supplies. Good for him, he can live the life of a digital nomad in Edo.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:15
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Tankbuster posted:So blackthorne can order food and household supplies. Good for him, he can live the life of a digital nomad in Edo. Blackthorne is living the ultimate weeb life.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:23
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BoldFace posted:If I had to guess, the final ruse is that Ochiba has been working with Toranaga all this time. Yabushige will deliver guns and cannons directly to Osaka, where they will be used to mount an attack on the castle. You think the mother of the heir of the Taiko, the last person to rule all of Japan, is working with the guy who is working to usurp that power?
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Apr 10, 2024 02:24
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BoldFace posted:If I had to guess, the final ruse is that Ochiba has been working with Toranaga all this time. Yabushige will deliver guns and cannons directly to Osaka, where they will be used to mount an attack on the castle. This seems right to me. The only 2 people aware of the full plan are Toranaga and Ochiba, everyone else has just been manipulated more or less on the fly as unexpected poo poo keeps happening - like the earthquake, and Toranaga Jr.'s tea party, and even a weird gaijin showing up out of nowhere. Toranaga never had a genius master plan really, just the outline of one that he's gradually filling in with whatever is at hand.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:26
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Jamwad Hilder posted:You think the mother of the heir of the Taiko, the last person to rule all of Japan, is working with the guy who is working to usurp that power? the Shogun ostensibly works for the Emperor. More importantly, its one dude, as compared to a revolving door of regents (who are also compromised by the Portuguese/Catholicism) EDIT banger of an episode I liked the implication from Blackthorne's crewman that Blackthorne tricked them to get them to continue to "The Japans" and that there probably isn't a hero's welcome waiting for him in England/Holland)
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Apr 10, 2024 02:28
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But now I remember the actual history and yeah they may not be allies at all lol.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:29
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glassyalabolas posted:Blackthorne is living the ultimate weeb life. yeah, japanese wife, japanese lover. Lounges around all day and has his own katana. Even looks down at other gaijin.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:36
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glassyalabolas posted:Blackthorne is living the ultimate weeb life. He became one of those salarymen who have do-nothing jobs. Vorenus posted:
It brought back frustrating memories to my college study abroad in Tokyo when there was a turbo-Japanese learner who loved to performativley show off his vocab skills. My favorite being the time he would write できる (dekiru, "can do") as 出来る, which is correct, but not used as often day to day. So I casually ask why. Maybe he has a nugget of wisdom I don't know. "Because that's how it's written!" he snaps, and then stares at me silently for a few seconds. Okee dokie then.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:37
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