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Vampire Panties posted:the Shogun ostensibly works for the Emperor. More importantly, its one dude, as compared to a revolving door of regents (who are also compromised by the Portuguese/Catholicism) The Taiko is not the emperor. Taiko is a title that is lesser than Shogun.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:37
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now tycoon on the other hand...
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Apr 10, 2024 02:38
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In fact, Taiko is basically a title made up for one exceptional man (Hideyoshi) that never really gets used again. Precisely because he could not claim the title of Shogun.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:41
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Reminds me of the title of president, which was meant to sound unimpressive, or lacking noble origins; they "preside" over government operations. But over 200 years it is now a pretty powerful sounding title.
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Apr 10, 2024 02:45
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everyone knows the Taiko invented those little cars kids play with, he was an important guy
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Apr 10, 2024 02:48
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So no one else thought that was a little much? I couldn't believe the old guy actually went so far as to commit seppuku... just to sell Toranaga's surrender as genuine? The paper of signatures wouldn't be enough? And then the goal was to thoroughly, thoroughly convince his own generals that he was really surrendering? Just...like, yknow, it kinda works in cartoons because the next scene is after the battle and everyone's like "haha good ol' Toranaga, you really fooled us!" but in real life, people are gonna sit there brooding and shaken for days after seeing their lord so determined to surrender that he lets his oldest friend kill himself in front of everyone. And then they're gonna, I dunno, commit seppuku themselves, or leave the camp, or at least their frame of mind is gonna be absolutely ruined by the time Toranaga says "ha ha, I fooled everyone, we're gonna attack!" because now they've spent days mentally preparing for their upcoming mandatory suicides. I mean, Buntaro was about to kill himself already, and Yabu did indeed choose that moment to abandon ship. I dunno, it just seemed a bit too over-the-top.
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Apr 10, 2024 03:40
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this shows amazing and atticus ross did an awesome job with the ambience. combined with the sets, lighting, acting, and everything else 
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Apr 10, 2024 03:40
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Phenotype posted:So no one else thought that was a little much? The whole point of this act was to fool Yabushige. By Ishido's command, Yabushige would be the one to sail to Osaka with Toranaga's guns and written surrender. But Toranaga knew that no matter what, Yabushige would always betray him. To keep him out of the loop, Toranaga had to convince him that the surrender is genuine. It doesn't matter if Ishido or the other regents don't buy it, as long as Yabushige delivers the weapons and Mariko where Toranaga wants them, the real plan can be put in motion.
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Apr 10, 2024 03:58
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I wonder if mariko will be ok in osaka, haha.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:01
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BoldFace posted:The whole point of this act was to fool Yabushige. By Ishido's command, Yabushige would be the one to sail to Osaka with Toranaga's guns and written surrender. But Toranaga knew that no matter what, Yabushige would always betray him. To keep him out of the loop, Toranaga had to convince him that the surrender is genuine. It doesn't matter if Ishido or the other regents don't buy it, as long as Yabushige delivers the weapons and Mariko where Toranaga wants them, the real plan can be put in motion. a bridge too far to order Yabu to pretend to betray him? snoremac fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 04:12
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:Reminds me of the title of president, which was meant to sound unimpressive, or lacking noble origins; they "preside" over government operations. But over 200 years it is now a pretty powerful sounding title. Who knows, maybe in some hundreds of years our republican terminology will be used by future monarchies as regal titles like how happened with names and titles from the Roman republic.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:15
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snoremac posted:I'm sure this will become clear but I'm curious what Yabu is going to do which will help Toranaga which Toranaga could not have just ordered him to do in the first place. Well, this is kinda what I mean, right? Great job, you've convinced Yabu to abandon you. And now that Yabu has already mentally gone through the process of breaking his ties with you, is he going to be more or less likely to carry out your surprise orders versus if you'd just told him to do it in the first place? It just seems like something that you do in a less heady sort of show, where you aren't really considering a full internal life and persona to all the characters.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:17
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I drank a big ol bottle of expensive sake that I saved for seven years for tonight's episode and I don't mind one bit admitting that I cried. I don't cry at sad things, I'm way too spectrum-y for that but beautiful things I can't help myself. Last episode's disappointment is gone, like a plum that fell from the tree and rolled into oblivion
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Apr 10, 2024 04:25
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snoremac posted:I'm sure this will become clear but I'm curious what Yabu is going to do which will help Toranaga which Toranaga could not have just ordered him to do in the first place. As Toranaga-sama eloquently put it: "All men are like falcons. Some are flown straight from the fist killing anything that moves. Others are lazy and tempted by the lure. But all men can be broken. Learn to fly them at the right game, and they will do your hunting for you." If Toranaga reveals the plan to Yabushige, the obvious answer is that Yabushige will look for an angle to benefit himself and jeopardize the plan. No, Toranaga must keep him in the dark and give him the suicide mission as the lure, so when Yabushige believes surrender is real, he will defect and do as Toranaga wants - start trouble without it tracing back to him. This is exactly why the followup scene occurs to clarify the situation. He already understands Blackthrone and Yabushige are men who will try to warp fate with their own hands. He hands them an impossible situation counting this. He even predicted that Yabushige would deny Blackthrone initially and that Yabu would "change his mind after today". This was the lesson he tried so hard, so many times to impress upon failson Nagakado. To depend on only yourself and hide your true heart or risk being broken to another man's fist. Phenotype posted:So no one else thought that was a little much? The plan was never to have Hiromatsu kill himself. But the rebellion of the Edo generals made it necessary. Notice when Hiromatsu speaks up - it is when one of the Edo generals reaches for his sword. When Hiromatsu publicly objects and the other two generals speak up to join him, he silences them and offers to commit suicide. In short, he is telling the other 2 generals that if they are going to be disloyal, then you better join him in doing Sepuku on the spot rather than try to usurp Toranaga's position. It wasn't scripted by the two of them, but was done out of necessity so everyone else would continue to play their part. What the final result is? I don't know but the script, action, and dialogue sequencing makes this interpretation fairly clear to me, especially on second viewing.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:28
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Phenotype posted:Well, this is kinda what I mean, right? Great job, you've convinced Yabu to abandon you. And now that Yabu has already mentally gone through the process of breaking his ties with you, is he going to be more or less likely to carry out your surprise orders versus if you'd just told him to do it in the first place? I think in this case Yabu will end up doing what Toranaga wants, and he is right to predict that will happen. He knows Yabu doesn't want to give up and will likely come up with his own plan to attack Osaka anyway. If he tells Yabu that plan, Yabu might start acting differently. Yabu has to think it is his own sneaky plan for it to work. Yabu is tasked with bring the guns and cannons back to Osaka. Toranaga knows that Blackthorne tried to pledge loyalty to Yabu, so Yabu will likely take the anjin with him once he's come up with "his" plan.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:29
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Having not read the book, also incredibly curious what the eventual plan is going to be given the kayfabe seems to making sure everyone is expecting to go suicide at the capitol. ...like are they going to get to the gates only for him to go "jk, at arms men!" I get that part of it is delivering cannons... but surely someone has to be informed to man them at some point. It's a very strange tactic to so severely undercut your armies morale, faith, and loyalty this much. But gently caress if it doesn't make great tv. Incredibly and interesting scenes back to back to back. Shame he didn't get to see more of his men after asking for them so feverishly for nine episodes.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:33
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To me, it's both in order to keep everyone in check - everybody highly, highly respects Hiromatsu, and the blame is clearly cast on the other generals rather than Toranaga - and to make Osaka/Ishido wholly believe that Toranaga is done. Yabushige now knows that he was manipulated into sailing with Blackthorne, you can see his face fall as he becomes a pawn again when Mariko arrives at the ship to translate for Blackthorne, on Toranaga's orders.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:34
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I think also it's important to note: It'd be silly to think Toranaga is the only one with spies.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:55
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That whole scene with Alvito and Toranaga was tailor-made for spies.
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Apr 10, 2024 04:59
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:I think also it's important to note: It'd be silly to think Toranaga is the only one with spies.
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Apr 10, 2024 05:58
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snoremac posted:Good point. In any staged betrayal Yobu would be a massive liability in terms of giving things away through scheming or bragging to the wrong person. Another good point. If Yabu thinks he has to do everything himself, he has to be even more secretive. He can't risk telling anyone and risk it getting back to Toranaga, and possibly any spies, so he can only tell Blackthorne, who has already had a public falling out with Toranaga, and can't really talk to anyone anyway.
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Apr 10, 2024 06:13
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The show has only been implying stakes rather than stating them. A lot of the implication is also based around some base concepts of clan government and medieval war that would be absolutely counterintuitive to a modern person. Ishido mustering his army to march on Edo isn’t something Ishido would want to do because that would be ruinously expensive. Ishido also can’t order the heirs army to muster and march on Edo. The army’s we’ve seen so far are just the 1-2k cadres that follow these lords around, not the thousands of trained samurai and tens of thousands of peasants with sharp sticks that sengoku period warfare was famous for depopulating the countryside with for nearly 150 years. The whole point of Kyoto and Edo is that thanks to the current situation this is the first time in decades things are improving and construction is booming and the population is recovering. Nobody wants to be the one to stop the economic gravy train of having nearly 25 years of civil war free investment. The entire country was still on a fully committed war footing. When the taiko reigned they tried to invade Korea in 1592 and 1598 just to figure out what to do with a “unified” Japan and 150k soldiers now without an ongoing fight. So what that means is that the first of the major powers to go back to open war spoils it for everyone and then gets dogpiled by all the clans. That’s why it’s so important for them to be surrendering in person for executions. The color of law helps keep the peace and that means a growing economy. Fighting only makes everyone go broke, even the victor. If Ishido believes Torranaga has truly surrendered then he won’t call his banners to Kyoto, and he wants to believe it because no one can afford to field their full army.
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Apr 10, 2024 06:29
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the battle of sekigahara should just be clips from Shogun 2 Total War.
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Apr 10, 2024 07:17
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Stegosnaurlax posted:Mad episode. My OCD is going to miss this show's level of finery. The entire show is sumptuous, but I really liked this one simple shot (spoilering it because of the scene it's in, though the shot itself is not a spoiler). It comes after numerous shots from a different angle, and the subtle outline of his armor in the background is just nice. 
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Apr 10, 2024 08:31
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Nice Tuckpointing! posted:The entire show is sumptuous, but I really liked this one simple shot (spoilering it because of the scene it's in, though the shot itself is not a spoiler). It comes after numerous shots from a different angle, and the subtle outline of his armor in the background is just nice. There's so much art in the way everything is done. I don't mean just the production. The customs, the craftsmanship of the era, the rigid preparation of everything from food to council meetings, even casual conversations. Every aspect of their lives is a performance, it is so stress inducing for someone who is unorganised and undisciplined. For someone like Blackthrone it must be like landing on an alien planet, because 400 years later it blows my mind.
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Apr 10, 2024 08:55
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I don’t know if I’m just reading into it too much, but Hiromatsu in that final audience scene looked like he was ripped straight out of an older movie, the way he was shot. My point here is that the general quality and level of artistry and consideration of everything from this production to this point lends itself to reading even more into it than what was intended. gonna miss this level of quality when it’s over
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Apr 10, 2024 09:10
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Jamwad Hilder posted:You think the mother of the heir of the Taiko, the last person to rule all of Japan, is working with the guy who is working to usurp that power? The show has made it pretty clear that the kid is not a legitimate heir of the Taiko, who had been known to shoot blanks before Ochiba's miraculous pregnancy. If Ochiba knows that Toranaga knows the truth, then I can see why she would resent him. On the other hand, Toranaga just happens to also be down an heir, and I don't think the show has mentioned him having other children besides Nagakado. If Toranaga happens to be the biological father of the heir, or if he promises to adopt him after becoming the shogun, I could see Ochiba switching sides. Regardless, Mariko's mission in Osaka is probably related to her having a personal relationship with Ochiba.
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Apr 10, 2024 10:09
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snoremac posted:Buntaro is written and acted well because he is a piece of poo poo as a husband and all around vicious man but his inner turmoil is palpable and I feel sorry for him. Same. I really didn't expect to sympathise with the rear end in a top hat drunken domestic abuser but drat I kinda felt for him there.
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Apr 10, 2024 11:18
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Can someone help me understand the scenes with Ochiba in this last ep? The taiko's wife having a stroke and being yet another person to tell her not to get with Ishido cause he's weak is fine, but then it almost seems implied that Ochiba killed the taiko's wife? Perhaps via poison? I know she has resting betrayal face so that might be coloring my perception here. Then she goes and .. again it seems implied, submits to marriage with Ishido? Why? There's no hint at all for her long game here, and literally everyone is telling her that Ishido sucks, and I'm sure she can put two and two together and realize her son is in danger. idgi Also I felt in the first few eps that they were hinting the boy was Toranaga's but there's not been a peep of that for like 6 episodes.
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Apr 10, 2024 12:21
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Kaedric posted:Can someone help me understand the scenes with Ochiba in this last ep? The taiko's wife having a stroke and being yet another person to tell her not to get with Ishido cause he's weak is fine, but then it almost seems implied that Ochiba killed the taiko's wife? Perhaps via poison? I know she has resting betrayal face so that might be coloring my perception here. Then she goes and .. again it seems implied, submits to marriage with Ishido? Why? There's no hint at all for her long game here, and literally everyone is telling her that Ishido sucks, and I'm sure she can put two and two together and realize her son is in danger. idgi I think she basically assisted her suicide since she was gravely ill and old. As for why she would not ally with T-sama I am pretty sure it is because she can manipulate Ishido, whereas she knows all too well who would be in the driver's seat with Toranaga and that threatens her son as well
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Apr 10, 2024 13:27
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I hope we get more Fuji reactions in the remaining episodes.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:49
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I think it coming off as murder is just a side effect of converting just how relieved Ochiba was to be rid of her. The show has been drawing the parallels between Mariko and Ochiba. The Taiko was Ochiba's Buntaro, and the wife was the one who trapped her in that life.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:51
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Very good episode, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed by the 3d chess ending.Mauser posted:I think she basically assisted her suicide since she was gravely ill and old. Something I am confused by, that kid is heir to the title of Taiko, which is a fake-rear end title no one else has ever held. Is this kid a threat to Toranaga taking control? Is Toranaga gonna toss Ochiba and the kid off the parapets or something when this is all said and done? It doesn't seem feasible to have this kid hanging around court, probably having plots hatched left and right to put him on the "throne" No one talks about the heir except to say they all love him and have his best interest at heart. Is it just that Shogun is a higher title so if Toranaga takes it, the kid doesn't remotely matter anymore? PostNouveau fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 15:41
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Yeah this last episode was really good, but I don't like that the last three episodes have basically been toronaga pretending to be defeated. I'm guessing that at least most of the next episode will still have the ruse going, and that's just too much build up for a reveal that's kind of obvious. Also it seems like the entire ruse is just to fool yabushige. Surely there's a better way to launch a coup than to bank everything and everyone on tricking one guy into betrayal?
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Apr 10, 2024 15:48
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PostNouveau posted:Something I am confused by, that kid is heir to the title of Taiko, which is a fake-rear end title no one else has ever held. Is this kid a threat to Toranaga taking control? Is Toranaga gonna toss Ochiba and the kid off the parapets or something when this is all said and done? It doesn't seem feasible to have this kid hanging around court, probably having plots hatched left and right to put him on the "throne" The council of regents is supposed to keep each other in check until the time the kid comes of age and takes over (the Taiko title might not have any tradition behind it, but all of them are nominally still loyal servants to the father). If any one of them were to seize power over the council, Ochiba and the kid become liabilities that need to be taken care of, which is pretty much what happened in real history (although it took another 15 years until the deed was fully completed). Edit: Also, Taiko is not really a "fake-rear end" title, it is still an office bestowed by the Emperor and thus a position of unquestionable authority (well, technically Taiko is the retired form of it, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sessh%C5%8D_and_Kampaku). There's just less precedent behind it being the title of the de-facto ruler than with the Shogun. fezball fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Apr 10, 2024 |
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Apr 10, 2024 16:05
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fezball posted:If any one of them were to seize power over the council, Ochiba and the kid become liabilities that need to be taken care of, which is pretty much what happened in real history (although it took another 15 years until the deed was fully completed). OK, yeah that is not super surprising. That poo poo happened all the time in Europe during succession crises, so I don't see why Japan would be any different. I think Mariko has alluded to this a couple of times, but they seem determined to make Ochiba a moustache-twirling villain who hates Toranaga because she's got a grudge from decades ago rather than someone who's backed into a corner and has a very good reason to ally with the guy she knows she can completely control.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:20
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M_Gargantua posted:The show has only been implying stakes rather than stating them. A lot of the implication is also based around some base concepts of clan government and medieval war that would be absolutely counterintuitive to a modern person. Ishido mustering his army to march on Edo isn’t something Ishido would want to do because that would be ruinously expensive. Ishido also can’t order the heirs army to muster and march on Edo. The army’s we’ve seen so far are just the 1-2k cadres that follow these lords around, not the thousands of trained samurai and tens of thousands of peasants with sharp sticks that sengoku period warfare was famous for depopulating the countryside with for nearly 150 years. The whole point of Kyoto and Edo is that thanks to the current situation this is the first time in decades things are improving and construction is booming and the population is recovering. Nobody wants to be the one to stop the economic gravy train of having nearly 25 years of civil war free investment. The entire country was still on a fully committed war footing. When the taiko reigned they tried to invade Korea in 1592 and 1598 just to figure out what to do with a “unified” Japan and 150k soldiers now without an ongoing fight. This is further implied with the way things are framed in terms of concessions made -- the tea house and church in that flat open land and the shots of the palace being built in the last episode, and in a few other places. It's also hinted at in a way by Mariko's explanation about their houses being quick to fall and quick to put up. The militaristic culture changed into one more focused on peaceful mercantilism is very much within living memory, and all the important people are the ones that won during the times of militarism, Toranaga and Yabushige even discuss the Korean wars as the foundation of their alliance at one point and Mariko still lives under the cloud of what her father did, and the way it changed things from what was to what is -- which is sort of further emphasis on her role as a translator. She's a character that operates as a fulcrum to represent or assist things changing on a lot of levels. It's very much showing rather than telling how the populace at large views this as an unstable peace, and is anxious about current events and what they could mean for that peace.
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Apr 10, 2024 16:52
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I don't really see the point of this complicated seppuku-ruse plot they've spent one third of the show on, but I hope the pay-off is worth it.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:29
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So are we thinking Toranaga is the father of the heir? It was plainly obvious that Ochiba went to someone else to get pregnant, just not sure who.
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Apr 10, 2024 17:33
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I'm constantly astonished by the scale of conflicts that took place in East Asia at the time when Europe was still building up to fielding armies of even somewhat comparable sizes during the upcoming and devastating 30 years war. The contemporary intertwined conflicts of religion or otherwise in Europe leading up to that war were miniscule by comparison, while simultaneously the age of sail is underway making Europeans everyone's problem from this point forward (as we're seeing a bit of during the show).
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Apr 10, 2024 17:36
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