|
From the comments Mercs are getting a big old rework as well, to fix them being basically free troops that don't even use manpower.
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 14:50
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:22 |
|
|
PittTheElder posted:From the comments Mercs are getting a big old rework as well, to fix them being basically free troops that don't even use manpower. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 14:52
|
|
|
quote:Having some buttons for just a few possible options for taxes or expenses, like in Imperator, is not really fitting for a GSG with deep economical gameplay.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 15:02
|
|
|
Lmao sliders in 2024, April fools was last week folks
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 15:05
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:... I wonder if they had some, uhm, creative disagreements, with the Vicky 3 team. The Victoria 3 team is definitely on the right side of this one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 15:19
|
|
|
“A game is a series of meaningless fiddles to sliders” - Sid Meiers, probably
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 15:26
|
|
|
inside you there are two paradox devs (Johan and Wiz)
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 15:44
|
|
|
The return of sliders brings up an interesting question: how did things work in EU3? like, I'm about a hundred years into my Vanilla EU4 game as Portugal, and I feel like I have some grasp of how the game works, and particularly how the mana points drive pretty much everything: you bank them for the research, except when something more important comes up, like hiring a new general, or boosting your stability, or unlocking the next part of an idea group, or coring a province, or engaging in development [but only to get development to a multiple of 10 so you can unlock a new building slot]. and the interesting decisions come in the form of what you want to prioritize, because there's never enough mana for everything if I recall correctly, in EU3, the sliders controlled how much of your income was getting pushed into a particular sector, and stuff unlocked once enough ducats had been pushed into it via sliders. So instead of "stop spending admin points on everything that costs admin points because you need to unlock the next level of admin tech", you would... zero out the diplo and mil sliders, and max out the admin slider (because those three are locked together) until you unlock the next admin tech level? in which case, how did you "develop" provinces?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:05
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:in which case, how did you "develop" provinces? Building buildings with ducats. Pretty much everything that changed the "effectiveness" of provinces was a building. There were admin buildings, military buildings, economy buildings - and those had levels, so you could build a level 1 military building, then you unlock the level 2 military building with tech, which is better but more expensive and requires the level 1 building, and that goes on until about level 6 I think?
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:09
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:The return of sliders brings up an interesting question: how did things work in EU3? Research worked via sliders too, if you wanna push the next government tech, you remove all the research (i.e. ducats invested into) the other categories and push it all into government. It's alll more of a long-term thing in most cases, you don't make gamechanging decisions what to do with your mana every 3 months Also there aren't diplo or admin sliders
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:11
|
|
|
In EU3, provinces had a "base tax" value that was pretty set in stone and only sometimes could be modified by events. And they each had a trade good that couldn't be changed either. The two of these together determined a province's value, and you could only enhance that value via buildings. If you had a province with low base tax and a lovely trade good, it would be a lovely province forever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:19
|
|
|
TheMcD posted:Building buildings with ducats. Pretty much everything that changed the "effectiveness" of provinces was a building. There were admin buildings, military buildings, economy buildings - and those had levels, so you could build a level 1 military building, then you unlock the level 2 military building with tech, which is better but more expensive and requires the level 1 building, and that goes on until about level 6 I think? EU3 provinces also had population, which was a number that affected taxation, manpower, goods, etc, and would grow or decrease according to it's conditions. Usually the number would balloon to improbable heights by 1800.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:23
|
|
|
The main slider was minting, and you would use it to decide how much inflation you were happy with relative to how much money you were getting.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:25
|
|
|
The "slider but it's only the 3/4 positions that are actually meaningful" buttons work way better than actual sliders imo. Big step back.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:27
|
|
|
Looking back at EU3 (i found an instructional LP while looking for pictures), i completely forgot that some of the art is still used in EU4. The advisors and buildings, and the icon for the army tab for example. The trade goods too. 
Frionnel fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Apr 10, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:28
|
|
|
yeah eu 4 was very much eu 3 take 2
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:29
|
|
|
Yeah I'm very unsold on the idea of minutely adjustable sliders for taxation. I just don't see what that would add over a handful of buttons for each taxation class like what Vicky 3 does. that level of fine control may add the illusion of additional depth, but it's not really going to give you more meaningful options, and it'll just waste your time as you fiddle with the sliders to find the perfect balance.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:31
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Yeah I'm very unsold on the idea of minutely adjustable sliders for taxation. I just don't see what that would add over a handful of buttons for each taxation class like what Vicky 3 does. that level of fine control may add the illusion of additional depth, but it's not really going to give you more meaningful options, and it'll just waste your time as you fiddle with the sliders to find the perfect balance. wasting time fiddling with sliders sounds like more time in game, ez design win
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:33
|
|
|
Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:yeah eu 4 was very much eu 3 take 2 Until development, at least.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:34
|
|
|
Yeah, Institutions and Development are imo the two big changes that turned EU4 into the game we know.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:39
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Yeah I'm very unsold on the idea of minutely adjustable sliders for taxation. I just don't see what that would add over a handful of buttons for each taxation class like what Vicky 3 does. that level of fine control may add the illusion of additional depth, but it's not really going to give you more meaningful options, and it'll just waste your time as you fiddle with the sliders to find the perfect balance. Hard agree. We'll see of course but currently I don't recall any EU4 slider that I would ever use more than 2 positions for. In case of army maintenance it's max and close to 0 but so that random wandering rebel wouldn't annihilate my armies. In every other Paradox games I get meaningful choices about paying my army extra to get something out of them, but in EU4 it's literally a switch between feeling safe and not feeling safe. Every other slider is "am I really short for money now or not". Paradox gets metrics from these games, have they ever observed a player to move, say, missionary maintenance slider to any position between min and max?
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:40
|
|
|
I highly doubt they are logging what position people put the slider on
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:42
|
|
|
I often put "root out corruption" at 1/3, and often I use middle-tier army maint when I'm short on cash but I expect some rebellions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:54
|
|
|
Luckily I still have a copy of EU3 with all the expansions/patches installed.  The treasury slider was the minting slider. There was an advisor that gave you inflation reduction that you pretty much always wanted, so effectively you almost always just moved the slider to whatever position gave neutral inflation gain. Or sometimes you gave yourself a little bit of inflation when you needed more cash.  The population tooltip claims that population affects tax income, but I can't see any evidence of this actually happening. (14 + 2 + 0.5) * 1.1 = 18.15 (the final tax income listed). And from what I recall, the base tax figure here is defined in the province data and only changes via event? Or is it actually based on population? Frionnel posted:Yeah, Institutions and Development are imo the two big changes that turned EU4 into the game we know. And Monarch Points and the trade system. EU3 beta patches (that were never made official) were used as a testbed for new ideas for EU4 for a while, so they weren't too different at first. But Monarch Points was probably the biggest differentiator at launch. It completely changed the game's economy and progression of growth. And the trade system that actually tried to simulate the flow of wealth was a big deal too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:56
|
|
|
I usually put the corruption slider at whatever i need to get a -0.1% corruption at minimum, more if i can spare the cash. I sometimes fiddle with missionary and colonial maintenance but only out of desperation. Like "i can't pay for this colony but i still want it to block a rival's landgrab" Frionnel fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Apr 10, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 16:58
|
|
|
CommonShore posted:I often put "root out corruption" at 1/3, and often I use middle-tier army maint when I'm short on cash but I expect some rebellions. Corruption is another one that a sensible position somewhere in the middle that would stop corruption from growing, and I never put it lower. I guess you make the case for sliders cause you seem to be 3 positions on that slider.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 17:00
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:
In the earlier version population played a role but it was never balanced. In the late game all the provinces get 999999 population and it looks silly, so it was removed from all the formulas but was left on the UI. You can also remember that in earlier versions of EU3 province screen had a 3d view of the city with all the buildings. But later they reworked building system and removed this screen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 17:04
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:Corruption is another one that a sensible position somewhere in the middle that would stop corruption from growing, and I never put it lower. Well what that middle position is depends on the context, and sometimes it's also "how much corruption growth am I willing to accept to save some money now," which to support your point from a different direction really only applies to very specific in-game challenges.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 17:04
|
|
|
It makes sense as a way to represent situations where you're making a tradeoff between one thing or another, and anybody who is going to fret about the exact position of the slider to find the exact right number is already far enough gone that they'll be willing to dig through whatever kind of UI you give them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 17:09
|
|
|
I'm gonna say that between sliders and buttons i prefer sliders just because they give a little more flexibility for what seems like little cost on the devs' time, but i don't understand why Johan feels the need to throw some shade there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 17:10
|
|
|
Speaking of EU3 I remember one of the things that really hosed with my friend's head getting into it was how annual census taxes worked vs monthly taxes and having to budget a year in advance and how you could really screw yourself if you spent everything in January. Neat system but I don't know if I miss it exactly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 17:12
|
|
|
The only thing I use the sliders for is setting the 'remove corruption' slider so I'm not gaining corruption and no further. I do not like sliders this much.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 19:18
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:The only thing I use the sliders for is setting the 'remove corruption' slider so I'm not gaining corruption and no further. I do not like sliders this much. But moving a slider pixel by pixel till you hit this point is true hardcore experience.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 19:28
|
|
|
Synthesis: sliders with sticky notches.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 19:54
|
|
|
I think you should have to manually enter all the numbers, maybe in some sort of spreadsheet
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 19:58
|
|
|
Farecoal posted:I think you should have to manually enter all the numbers, maybe in some sort of spreadsheet Yeah but you have to enter the number in each cell using a slider that goes from 0 to 99999.
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 20:04
|
|
|
it doens't matter what eu5 starts off as, in the end there will be 50 extra kinds of mana to spend which vaguely interact with each other, mainly as a way to sell new dlc
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 20:55
|
|
|
i'll take the 50 extra kinds of mana if they follow the general thrust of eu5 so far and are less abstract than eu4. gently caress innovation give me Road Mana
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 22:28
|
|
|
it will be road capacity and we'll all call it genius
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 22:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:22 |
|
|
Sliders in EU. Darkest Hour getting a major patch. Nature is healing. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/darkest-hour-dev-diary-35-patch-1-06-part-1.1662620/
|
|
#
?
Apr 10, 2024 23:00
|
|
