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Vorenus: Jul 14, 2013

CapnAndy posted:

I never understood why Crimson Sky was a tenable plan in the first place. The entire reason Toranaga thanks Omi for slaughtering those dudes with the cannon was "marching on Osaka would be suicide, but now you've provoked them to march on us, which means we get the defender's advantage and that might be enough", and then the next episode he's like "okay so let's do Plan: March On Osaka, it's our only hope".

Crimson Sky was never anything more than an all-out suicide assault. This is part of why all of the generals and retainers are furious - they expected that if Toranaga couldn't pull off a victory, they would at least all die honorably fighting the daimyo who opposed him. Now they're being told to bow meekly to some upstart peasant who happened to be useful to the previous swinging dick of Japan.

grobbo posted:

However, it seems increasingly as if for the plot to work out, we're also going to have to accept the fact that these same spies simply aren't listening in - and Toranaga is somehow fully confident in that - when he tells Mariko in his chambers that he's manoeuvring the Edo Bros to his advantage, or when she goes to join up with them and tells everyone Toranaga sent her (on a dock! In front of Omi and a whole bunch of other random people!), or when Father Martin comes to visit.

There's no reason to be suspicious of sending Mariko to Osaka. On the face of it, she's a useful hostage for Ishido to have in his control. After all, why would Toranaga send all the cannons, and Yabu, and Mariko if he isn't serious about surrendering?

# ? Apr 11, 2024 02:05

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# ? May 20, 2024 10:43

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

No Mods No Masters posted:

What kind of books about sengoku jidai do all of you all recommend. I fear my collection is very much the collection of a noob (and I guess musashi doesn't even really count)

If you're looking for a general overview of samurai history, Stephen Turnbull has pretty much the best work for a western source.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 02:18

No Mods No Masters: Oct 3, 2004

Yeah I have read some random turnbulls but as ebooks. They probably would look pretty nice on a shelf though. It's been a long time since I've read this but I remember it being pretty decent also.

My japanese is absolutely meh but honestly if you have recs for like the canon japanese sources I would be interested in those too

No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Apr 11, 2024

# ? Apr 11, 2024 02:32

C-Euro: Mar 20, 2010; Soiled Meat

Nice Tuckpointing! posted:

The tea ceremony scene was a "we did our homework" flex.

Yeah that was straight out of the book and is just as tense there. In the book it's spelled out as the moment that Buntaro finally understands that Mariko and Blackthorne have been sleeping together (which tbf is implied by the book to have happened a lot more).

Great ep.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 02:41

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

No Mods No Masters posted:

Yeah I have read some random turnbulls but as ebooks. They probably would look pretty nice on a shelf though. It's been a long time since I've read this but I remember it being pretty decent also.

My japanese is absolutely meh but honestly if you have recs for like the canon japanese sources I would be interested in those too

Can say I read too much in Japanese either. Some other fictional/semi-fictional works I've liked though are Drunk as a Lord by Ryotaro Shiba and Legends of the Samurai by Hiroaki Sato. Both should have English translations because I found my copies in the English section of a bookstore in Tokyo.

The tale of the Heike is also a classic but not Sengoku era at all, Eiji Yoshikawa has his own telling of that one as well and his work was always fun to read imo. I saw you had Taiko and his book on Musashi already. It's about the civil war between two powerful clans that led to the development of the first shogunate in the late 1100s.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 02:59

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Vorenus posted:

Crimson Sky was never anything more than an all-out suicide assault. This is part of why all of the generals and retainers are furious - they expected that if Toranaga couldn't pull off a victory, they would at least all die honorably fighting the daimyo who opposed him. Now they're being told to bow meekly to some upstart peasant who happened to be useful to the previous swinging dick of Japan.

I guess so, but it�s framed, at least before his brother�s betrayal, as a desperate plan that still might work, if they�re lucky. And I�m sitting there going ��no? You couldn�t assault those walls with the men you had before, why is it gonna work now that you have less of them?�, but after the latest episode (I caught up!), I�m appreciating more and more just how vast a gulf there is between my mental framework and theirs.

Two things: Mariko is an absolutely poo poo translator, isn�t she? She�s frequently editorializing in both directions, and you�re not supposed to do that. Say what you want about Martin, but at least he knows his job. Also, does anyone know enough Japanese to explain this �-suru� I hear them frequently ending their sentences with? I hear �-gozaimasu� sometimes too, but that one I know because it still comes attached sometimes to one of the like six Japanese words I know.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 05:42

No Mods No Masters: Oct 3, 2004

Suru is just the verb "to do". It attaches to countless different nouns for different things to do. Benkyou-suru, to study, kitai-suru, to expect, renraku-suru, to contact, etc

# ? Apr 11, 2024 05:46

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

No Mods No Masters posted:

Suru is just the verb "to do". It attaches to countless different nouns for different things to do. Benkyou-suru, to study, kitai-suru, to expect, renraku-suru, to contact, etc

Oh, that's cool too! Verb comes last in the sentence, then? It's neat learning things about the language just by observation. Like, I can tell that Japanese doesn't use its pronouns as much as English does, because I catch them saying each other's names a lot when the subtitles have "you" or "he" or "she".

# ? Apr 11, 2024 05:52

Nice Tuckpointing!: Nov 3, 2005

Other tenses are just variations on "suru" -- "shimasu", "shimashita" etc. You tack it on to stuff to verbify as you please. In episode 4 at the hot spring, Mariko and Blackthorne talk about London and how they will "sanpo suru". Essentially, "have a walk", or if we want to be clunky with literal translation, "do a stroll".

edit; beat-saremashita

Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Apr 11, 2024

# ? Apr 11, 2024 05:57

MrMojok: Jan 28, 2011

�gozaimas� is something they append to the end of many sentences, as a form of politeness, I guess?

# ? Apr 11, 2024 06:13

Nice Tuckpointing!: Nov 3, 2005

MrMojok posted:

�gozaimas� is something they append to the end of many sentences, as a form of politeness, I guess?

Pretty much. It's old-timey/polite "desu". (Well, not exactly, but close enough for this convo.)

# ? Apr 11, 2024 06:20

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Nice Tuckpointing! posted:

Pretty much. It's old-timey/polite "desu". (Well, not exactly, but close enough for this convo.)

I figured that one, since like I said, I do know "arigato" and I also know that you say "arigato gozaimasu" to be really really polite/thankful. It made sense that that's a holdover from a time when you said it in a lot more situations.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 06:22

Kaedric: Sep 5, 2000

Justin Credible posted:

That threw me too. I just think he is very fair complexioned and light on traditional/typical Japanese facial features.

edit to be clear I was talking about and assumed you were talking about this guy and not just making a joke on goons being terrible at watching media

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 06:25

Nice Tuckpointing!: Nov 3, 2005

CapnAndy posted:

I figured that one, since like I said, I do know "arigato" and I also know that you say "arigato gozaimasu" to be really really polite/thankful. It made sense that that's a holdover from a time when you said it in a lot more situations.

If you ever go to a store or restaurant and the employees need to politely let you down, you will hear "moshi wake gozaimasen" (the "sen" makes it negative/can't), which is a set phrase for "no can do", except phrased in the politest way possible.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 06:28

Popoto: Oct 21, 2012; miaow

Kaedric posted:

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

lmao

# ? Apr 11, 2024 09:56

Jerusalem: May 20, 2004; Would you be my new best friends?

Mac: So anyway, I've made the decision that I will no longer put on a wig and make-up and pretend to be a Japanese samurai.
The Gang: ...
Mac: ...
The Gang: ...and?
Mac: Oh, I thought you might give me a round of applause...

# ? Apr 11, 2024 09:58

snoremac: Jul 27, 2012; I LOVE SEEING DEAD BABIES ON 𝕏, THE EVERYTHING APP. IT'S WORTH IT FOR THE FOLLOWING TAB.

"Toranaga is going to fight."

The Gang Commits Seppuku

# ? Apr 11, 2024 12:17

RandomHodge: Jul 5, 2007

Kaedric posted:

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

lol I thought this too, to the point that it took me out of the episode for a second

# ? Apr 11, 2024 12:19

Mauser: Dec 16, 2003; How did I even get here, son?!

Kaedric posted:

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 13:54

Macdeo Lurjtux: Jul 5, 2011; BRRREADSTOOORRM!

Jamwad Hilder posted:

I dunno where you're getting this from but Nobunaga's body was never found, not smuggled out anywhere. It probably burned up. He probably did commit seppuku though.

Hideyoshi was involved in a war against the Mori clan. They were the most powerful clan in the western provinces with a large number of subordinate clans. I don't think it's accurate to portray them as some minor hold out lord opposed to unification. We're talking about like a third or more of the country.

Everyone knew that the Akechi clan had killed Nobunaga, there wasn't any doubt about that, and most of the retainers were racing to see who could get revenge for Nobunaga first (and thus place themselves in an important position). Akechi also did not surrender. He got crushed by Hideyoshi and some of the other loyalist lords in the battle of Yamazaki and died less than two weeks after his attempted coup.

I never called then a minor clan, just one of the few remaining hold outs.

https://jbpress.ismedia.jp/articles/-/79367

This article goes into why not being able to recover the body doomed Akechi's rebellion and talks about some of the legends of Nobunaga's body being smuggled out and some of the gravesites that claim to be his final resting place.

It also mentions how Hideyoshi lied about Nobunaga still being alive to keep several clans loyal until after the rebellion was put down.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 14:26

Zanna: Oct 9, 2012

No Mods No Masters posted:

What kind of books about sengoku jidai do all of you all recommend. I fear my collection is very much the collection of a noob (and I guess musashi doesn't even really count)

Turnbull's the obvious choice to check out for English language stuff, as has been mentioned, but I have a soft spot for a couple of books written by Anthony J. Bryant for Osprey Publishing; I'm particularly fond of his book on the battle of Sekigahara, and if you have an interest in period armor, that was something of his specialty. Though at least some of my appreciation is because he took the time to answer an off the cuff email question a burgeoning Sengoku nerd sent him asking about the historicity of the final fate of a particular figure of the time, and how it compared to their counterpart in Clavell's novel.

...gently caress, that was nearly twenty years ago.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 14:33

Seluin: Jan 4, 2004

Kaedric posted:

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

You�re not alone.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5mMsKjyw3a/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

# ? Apr 11, 2024 15:35

kiimo: Jul 24, 2003

Kaedric posted:

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

You keep using this word jabroni-suru

and it's...awesome

# ? Apr 11, 2024 15:38

Kaedric: Sep 5, 2000

Seluin posted:

You�re not alone.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5mMsKjyw3a/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Guest star appearance when

# ? Apr 11, 2024 16:31

Cojawfee: May 31, 2006; I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Lol I like how he's just posting because the guy looks like him and then the actual actor is in the comments.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 16:39

CatstropheWaitress: Nov 26, 2017

CapnAndy posted:

Two things: Mariko is an absolutely poo poo translator, isn�t she? She�s frequently editorializing in both directions, and you�re not supposed to do that.

idk, there's something to translating intentions / letting one party know "hey, if you say that in such blunt words these guys are gonna cut your head off".

# ? Apr 11, 2024 20:40

counterfeitsaint: Feb 26, 2010; I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

Mariko needs to start translating all of Blackthorne's sailorisms verbatim. Everyone needs to know that the Portuguese are poo poo stained fucksmears.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 20:48

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

She is interpreting.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 21:15

Nybble: Jun 28, 2008; praise chuck, raise heck

At least she hasn�t stolen all of Blackthorne�s rice and gambled it away.

(go look up the recent info around Ohtani�s interpreter who seems to have siphoned off millions from the star player and acted as his sole English speaking liaison)

To get this post back to the show, I like how it�s slowly shown him learning Japanese over time. Feels very accurate to the �immerse and learn� method.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 21:21

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Nybble posted:

To get this post back to the show, I like how it�s slowly shown him learning Japanese over time. Feels very accurate to the �immerse and learn� method.

We're assuming he's playing dumb for Yabushige, right? Bit weird how he can go from understanding Martin's translation, telling him he's wrong, and then explaining that he wants charcoal instead to "...allies".

# ? Apr 11, 2024 21:38

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

he probably knows household words. Decades of watching anime might have told you what Keikaku means but you aren't gonna be reading the tale of heike.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 21:42

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

It's kind of expected Mariko would do more than just translating since she's effectively Blackthorne's handler.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 21:56

CapnAndy: Feb 27, 2004; Some teeth long for ripping, gleaming wet from black dog gums. So you keep your eyes closed at the end. You don't want to see such a mouth up close. before the bite, before its oblivion in the goring of your soft parts, the speckled lips will curl back in a whinny of excitement. You just know it.

Tankbuster posted:

he probably knows household words. Decades of watching anime might have told you what Keikaku means but you aren't gonna be reading the tale of heike.

Yeah, but understanding what Martin said and then formulating his own complete sentences means he's got grammar and at least a base vocabulary. Some of what Yabushige said should've made sense to him.

# ? Apr 11, 2024 21:57

Justin Credible: Aug 27, 2003; happy cat

Kaedric posted:

Hahah, I can't be the only person who feels like the guy pictured above just looks like Mac from Always Sunny with a wig/wigbeard.

Oh my god that's what it was that made him stick out so much to me oh my god

# ? Apr 11, 2024 22:36

Vampire Panties: Apr 18, 2001; nposter; Nap Ghost

Cojawfee posted:

Lol I like how he's just posting because the guy looks like him and then the actual actor is in the comments.

that guy is 100% showing up in Mythic Quest or IASIP now

# ? Apr 11, 2024 23:39

Stegosnaurlax: Apr 30, 2023

I thought mythic quest had been cancelled, i've not heard anyone talk about since the end of season 1

# ? Apr 11, 2024 23:48

Panzeh: Nov 27, 2006; "..The high ground"

Nybble posted:

At least she hasn�t stolen all of Blackthorne�s rice and gambled it away.

(go look up the recent info around Ohtani�s interpreter who seems to have siphoned off millions from the star player and acted as his sole English speaking liaison)

To get this post back to the show, I like how it�s slowly shown him learning Japanese over time. Feels very accurate to the �immerse and learn� method.

Yeah, this is one of the things that gets cut by being more the Toranaga show than the other series- a lot of details as to what Blackthorne is up to over the time period are gone (and some good scenes for him). I'm not sure, in terms of adaptation, these cuts are the same cuts I would've made (the hooker arc is hilarious in how it ends but the rest of it probably didn't need to be there, especially if they're not going to have the scene from the book where it shows how Blackthorne befriends Omi once and for all).

# ? Apr 11, 2024 23:59

Bip Roberts: Mar 29, 2005

You guys should probably also watch Oda Cinnamon Nobunaga to catch up on the history.

# ? Apr 12, 2024 00:04

ADudeWhoAbides: Mar 30, 2010

Stegosnaurlax posted:

I thought mythic quest had been cancelled, i've not heard anyone talk about since the end of season 1

Mythic Quest has had three seasons with a fourth on the way. Not sure how popular it is but it�s been nominated for awards.

To other posts: how much time has passed since the ship arrived in �the Japans�? As someone who hasn�t read the book, it�s been a little hard to tell how much Blackthorne should understand in conversation or not. So far it seems like he�s learned some phrases to say himself but understands almost nothing spoken back to him.

# ? Apr 12, 2024 00:18

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# ? May 20, 2024 10:43

Dr.Radical: Apr 3, 2011

I really appreciate the casting of Father Martin and the other priests. They�re all so loathsome and those horrible haircuts they have is the icing on the cake. The first friar in the fishing village whining in toddler Japanese had me grinding my teeth

# ? Apr 12, 2024 01:36

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