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Blood Boils posted:Eh I dunno about that, he could have the guild keep them on arrakis and rule from Caladan if he wanted to Presumably Alia would still go do her huntress of a billion worlds thing.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:14
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Gaius Marius posted:That's right
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Apr 11, 2024 21:07
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Simply Simon posted:He already told the Fremen that they can have the galaxy by its balls by threatening to withhold spice from it. The guild would fold immediately to the Fremen doing this and ferry them wherever, perhaps first to Caladan for some stern words with their Messiah who must have just gotten confused a little, right? "The messiah is just badly advised, probably by the offworlder Gurney, as soon as we blackmail the guild to get to caladan and then kill gurney he'll properly tell us to do our holy war"
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Apr 11, 2024 21:33
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Blood Boils posted:Eh I dunno about that, he could have the guild keep them on arrakis and rule from Caladan if he wanted to this is less clear cut in the movie but in the book it is explicit text that after a certain tipping point the jihad is inevitable, no matter what Paul does, he even explicitly says that Feyd killing him would not be enough to stop it quote:This is the climax, Paul Thought. From here, the future will open, the clouds part onto a kind of glory. And if I die here, they'll say I sacrificed myself that my spirit might lead them. And if I live, they'll say nothing can oppose Muad'dib
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Apr 11, 2024 21:45
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YggdrasilTM posted:Sure, a display of authority and large scale violence that were unthinkable for him at the start of the first movie. Does he go "full mask-off tyrant", though? He literally usurps an imperial throne and launches a holy war he knows will decimate whole planets worth of people, it doesn't really matter if he privately feels conflicting emotions, he still is what he is Edit: AnEdgelord posted:this is less clear cut in the movie but in the book it is explicit text that after a certain tipping point the jihad is inevitable, no matter what Paul does, he even explicitly says that Feyd killing him would not be enough to stop it Yah that's what he believes, but he's not infallible just because he's the main character Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 22:20
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He's literally prescient
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Apr 11, 2024 22:30
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Blood Boils posted:Yah that's what he believes, but he's not infallible just because he's the main character no hes infallible because hes basically omniscient there are points in the book where he discusses that he could stop the Jihad but it would require the death of him, his mother, his sister and every single fremen that had interacted with him up until that point including Stilgar and Chani, he can't bear to make that level of sacrifice and talks himself into waiting for a less painful point to break it off until it is too late
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Apr 11, 2024 22:30
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Simply Simon posted:He already told the Fremen that they can have the galaxy by its balls by threatening to withhold spice from it. The guild would fold immediately to the Fremen doing this and ferry them wherever, perhaps first to Caladan for some stern words with their Messiah who must have just gotten confused a little, right? Depends on whether the skeptics could get thru all the loyalists, not be manipulated or distracted by Paul who in addition to being their divine monarch is also a super witch with mentat training, etc All I'm saying is the golden path is chosen deliberately by Paul, and his rationalization that he has no other choice is a self-comforting falsehood. He never had to manipulate the firemen at all, he could have been content to just be one of them. Or become a smuggler or whatever. Taken the Sartre path and committed suicide immediately lol, many different options! Gaius Marius posted:He's literally prescient Admittedly I've never actually looked up the definition of infallibility, but my impression was that it means never being wrong. Being able to see the future doesn't mean he's incapable of making mistakes or choosing other paths. Leto 2 has to step up once dad loses his nerve and goes full native after all
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Apr 11, 2024 22:51
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this is just getting the basic facts of the book wrong, not only does Paul explicitly reject the Golden Path (Children of Dune spoilers) ,something that Leto II chides him over when he reveals to Paul that his prescience extends even further and that the Golden Path is the ONLY path of survival for humanity and that Paul's preferred path of destroying Spice forever through turning Arrakis into a green paradise would result in the final extinction of humanity by stranding them in one place, but even in the first book it is EXTREMELY clear on the point that the Fremen will raise him up as Messiah whether he wills it or not and even killing himself will just force that role on either his mother or sister. He would have to intentionally kill not only himself but his whole family, Chani, Stilgar, every single Fremen he ever met and accept the final destruction of his entire family line
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Apr 11, 2024 23:04
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AnEdgelord posted:this is just getting the basic facts of the book wrong, not only does Paul explicitly reject the Golden Path (Children of Dune spoilers) ,something that Leto II chides him over when he reveals to Paul that his prescience extends even further and that the Golden Path is the ONLY path of survival for humanity and that Paul's preferred path of destroying Spice forever through turning Arrakis into a green paradise would result in the final extinction of humanity by stranding them in one place, but even in the first book it is EXTREMELY clear on the point that the Fremen will raise him up as Messiah whether he wills it or not and even killing himself will just force that role on either his mother or sister. He would have to intentionally kill not only himself but his whole family, Chani, Stilgar, every single Fremen he ever met and accept the final destruction of his entire family line Even if he did that in 4000 years the previously thought defeated AI apocalypse will wipe out humanity.
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Apr 11, 2024 23:38
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Paul's not perfect or infallible, he's just better than any real life "great man" could be and yet he's basically at the mercy of historical forces to the point where he can see there's a holy war killing billions even if he dies before it happens. Hell, I think Leto II even had doubts, and he's a double super psychic
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Apr 11, 2024 23:38
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Blood Boils posted:All I'm saying is the golden path is chosen deliberately by Paul Once he has drunk the water of life, he can literally go through every "what if I did this instead" scenario in his head and realizes that oops, his vision of a terrible future was correct after all because no matter what he does, it will happen, but - and that's the paltry good news about this - it's in fact one of the best possible outcomes from the poo poo he set in motion already. That's the path he chooses. You are proposing that there might in fact be another way that leads to a less terrible outcome but I think we just have to take the text of book and film at face value here: Paul has already played through all the other ways and discarded them as even worse, unfeasible etc. - like, killing himself immediately would let the Fremen rampage across the galaxy uncontrollably because Paul's no longer around to give any guidance. So he chooses to stick around and prevent them from going too crazy. That's one of the main decisions here - staying alive - but everything else he does must be treated the same way. Now, I haven't read further than half of Messiah and what's been posted in this thread, so it's entirely possible that in the end it turns out he's wrong and there was another way, or he finally manages to prove to himself that oh gently caress I could have broken out of this golden fate prison I made for myself all along, but that's irrelevant because Paul ultimately being fallible and maybe interpreting his visions wrong is not incongruent with him thinking as of the events of Dune 2 that he is right and there's no other way.
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Apr 11, 2024 23:41
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sean10mm posted:Paul's not perfect or infallible, he's just better than any real life "great man" could be and yet he's basically at the mercy of historical forces to the point where he can see there's a holy war killing billions even if he dies before it happens. the goal of the golden path was to give humanity a chance. FTL computers meant computer prescient which meant humanity was doomed without Siona’s genes
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Apr 11, 2024 23:46
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hobbesmaster posted:the goal of the golden path was to give humanity a chance. FTL computers meant computer prescient which meant humanity was doomed without Siona’s genes I think that's heavily exaggerating things. The one time it's mentioned, Leto 2 immediately dismisses it as a solved problem.
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Apr 12, 2024 01:00
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Schwarzwald posted:I think that's heavily exaggerating things. The one time it's mentioned, Leto 2 immediately dismisses it as a solved problem. Since I will never argue against completely disregarding Brian’s (realistically, Kevin J Anderson’s) writing and only weakly defend heretics and Chapterhouse: sure.
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Apr 12, 2024 01:05
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Failed Imagineer posted:...BJJ masters... I should call her
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Apr 12, 2024 01:13
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AnEdgelord posted:this is just getting the basic facts of the book wrong, not only does Paul explicitly reject the Golden Path (Children of Dune spoilers) ,something that Leto II chides him over when he reveals to Paul that his prescience extends even further and that the Golden Path is the ONLY path of survival for humanity and that Paul's preferred path of destroying Spice forever through turning Arrakis into a green paradise would result in the final extinction of humanity by stranding them in one place, but even in the first book it is EXTREMELY clear on the point that the Fremen will raise him up as Messiah whether he wills it or not and even killing himself will just force that role on either his mother or sister. He would have to intentionally kill not only himself but his whole family, Chani, Stilgar, every single Fremen he ever met and accept the final destruction of his entire family line Right that's what I'm saying; there's more than one good option! sean10mm posted:Paul's not perfect or infallible, he's just better than any real life "great man" could be and yet he's basically at the mercy of historical forces to the point where he can see there's a holy war killing billions even if he dies before it happens. For dudes who allegedly can see all the futures they could have avoided a lot of internal family drama & murder if they just warned Alia "so yea at some point Ol' Rapey Grandpa is gonna try to possess you which will, amongst other things, force your nephew to become the Immortal Dickless Worm King at way too young an age which in turn means his whole reign and pinnacle of human civilization is just him goading everyone else into putting him out of his misery" Like, why not let Leto 2 grow up and live a little first before he becomes a post-human monster? Surely him being miserable isn't essential to the plan! Prescience seems wasted on feudal people, no imagination at all
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Apr 12, 2024 01:30
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Blood Boils posted:For dudes who allegedly can see all the futures they could have avoided a lot of internal family drama & murder if they just warned Alia Oracles cannot see each other…. except for when they can. The only sense I can make of it is that there’s some sort of tier system
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Apr 12, 2024 01:43
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Blood Boils posted:Right that's what I'm saying; there's more than one good option! I mean no that would avoid the jihad (by effectively running his own smaller jihad) but it would still lead to the death of all humanity in the not too distant future.
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Apr 12, 2024 01:44
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Paul didn't care about the survival of all humanity, and why should he? Why should that be the one true objective for which any means necessary is acceptable? Species come and go, who cares? Paul's father did the right and noble thing by dying. Also who said that humanity is at risk of being wiped out? Oh right, the worm emperor guy who claims he's also the only hope to prevent it. Sure let's trust that guy.
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Apr 12, 2024 01:56
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Buttchocks posted:Also who said that humanity is at risk of being wiped out? Oh right, the worm emperor guy who claims he's also the only hope to prevent it. Sure let's trust that guy. Paul knew. I tried to pick a quote but just go back and read chapter 54 in Children after reading GEoD. Ghanima knew too. Chapter 13
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Apr 12, 2024 02:30
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“Just let humanity die bro! Subscribe to r/childfree!” Is not the great rhetorical smackdown you think it is.
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Apr 12, 2024 02:48
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Simply Simon posted:Yeah, it absolutely is. The thing is, before he takes the water of life, he sees some broad strokes - going into the South is going to lead to bad things is a big one - but he cannot see everything. That's why he's blindsided by the attack on Sietch Tabr, and why he thinks a) he needs to drink the water to prevent bad things from surprising him and his loved ones again and b) obviously his precogniction isn't perfect so maybe there's a way to avoid the terrible consequences of going South. Bah, Fremenphobic imperial propaganda! They're not animals or robots, they don't jihad for no reason - the Atreides manipulate (or guide, if you prefer) them into doing it, as a means for achieving kanly and the throne. It makes perfect sense why this particular inbred mutant would believe he genuinely has the mandate of heaven, it fits neatly into all 3 of his belief systems; but I don't think we can totally dismiss the possibility that he's wrong.
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Apr 12, 2024 02:52
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Future vision being wrong defeats the entire purpose of the story. And also relies on an essentially willful misreading of it’s themes. It stinks of that kind of media illiteracy so prevalent today that wants more to “win” on the internet rather than engage with the movie that says everything is actually a coma fantasy.
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Apr 12, 2024 03:08
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I dunno about all that other weird stuff, but how would the character being fallible defeat the purpose of the story?
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Apr 12, 2024 03:11
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any error in Leto 2's logic, and by extension the book's, is an error inherent to herbert's philosophy. as much as people like to discern hidden meanings or satire or irony, writers write what they believe, not necessarily what they know
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Apr 12, 2024 03:13
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Blood Boils posted:Right that's what I'm saying; there's more than one good option! I think you misread my post, Paul commits to the Jihad for completely rational reasons (not wanting to kill his whole family and everyone who ever showed him kindness after his father's death), not because he's a dick. That's Herbert's whole point, that even a good person put in the situation Paul is in would enact monstrous evil. Also that whole Paul vs Leto II thing doesn't take place until the third book and Paul isn't thinking about that poo poo by the end of the first book, he's bending his prescience entirely to find ANY wiggle room in the galactic genocide that's going to take place and isn't trying to look that far ahead. Also to complicate things more a big part of book 1 is that the Jihad isn't just a potential future but something that the 'race consciousness' (as in human race) is itself trying to bring about. This whole concept is rooted in jungian psychoanalysis and it basically can't appear in the movie because it would take WAY too long to explain and is very out there even by the standards of the rest of the novel but the collective consciousness of humanity is deliberately working itself up for a mass convulsion due to the "stagnancy of the genes" (possibly related to the BG breeding program) and it's desire to enact the "wild mixing of genes". Paul as the Kwizats Haderach can actually see the 'race consciousness' of humanity gearing itself up for this where no one else can. So not only is he fighting the BG implanted prophecies but the collective consciousness of humanity itself.
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Apr 12, 2024 03:16
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Blood Boils posted:I dunno about all that other weird stuff, but how would the character being fallible defeat the purpose of the story? Because the point of that part of the story is "The prescience trap", a theme that goes all throughout the series about how knowing the future is actually kind of horrible in how it basically locks you onto a path ironically "limiting" your choices. And that the ability to see the "greater good" at such a timescale also makes you an evil monster who kills billions because you're no longer seeing things like a person. Without all that it's just "lol Paul sure is stupid spilling his Jihad all over the floor."
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Apr 12, 2024 03:18
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I hope the Book of the New Sun never gets adapted so I never have to see the discourse around it degrade as much as it has with Dune.
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Apr 12, 2024 03:25
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https://twitter.com/quibvs/status/1778478473339699533?t=uw_k7O6ya67vL9dNe05oKg&s=19
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Apr 12, 2024 03:36
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Blood Boils posted:I dunno about all that other weird stuff, but how would the character being fallible defeat the purpose of the story? In the later books it becomes an essential plot point that the know it all guy knows it all
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Apr 12, 2024 03:52
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Doltos posted:In the later books it becomes an essential plot point that the know it all guy knows it all IIRC that guy explicitly says he's not actually all knowing, and his successful assassination hinges on this. Sorry friends but the more I think about this golden path the more it reminds me of the gang's scheme to create a self sustaining economy of Paddy's Dollars - in order to breed tyranny and stagnation out of humanity we will breed a king so tyrannical to reign over a period of unprecedented stagnation and this will, uh motivate everyone to not ever want that again! *push that king off a bridge and fast forward to Heretics* hmm seems like civilization is still fairly despotic and listless, ah well nevermind, pobody's nerfect (except Duncan Idaho, again)! galagazombie posted:Because the point of that part of the story is "The prescience trap", a theme that goes all throughout the series about how knowing the future is actually kind of horrible in how it basically locks you onto a path ironically "limiting" your choices. And that the ability to see the "greater good" at such a timescale also makes you an evil monster who kills billions because you're no longer seeing things like a person. Without all that it's just "lol Paul sure is stupid spilling his Jihad all over the floor." Ok but again my question isn't 'what does Paul (or Leto or Miles Teg or whoever) believe', we have access to all their relevant internal thoughts, I already know, there's no dispute there. My question is how would Paul et al being fallible defeat the story, or even be a problem at all? Idgi  Fwiw I'm not saying "he's right" isn't a possibility, I just can't help but entertain the alternative as well.
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Apr 12, 2024 06:10
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Blood Boils posted:IIRC that guy explicitly says he's not actually all knowing, and his successful assassination hinges on this. From what I remember he specifically lets people who fall out his prescience to be bred and eventually assassinate him to spur the golden path forward.
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Apr 12, 2024 06:29
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Mat Cauthon posted:https://twitter.com/quibvs/status/1778478473339699533?t=uw_k7O6ya67vL9dNe05oKg&s=19 kinda slaps ngl
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Apr 12, 2024 06:37
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The ending of Jet Li’s The One but it’s all Jason Mamoa’s. “I’m nobodies bitch! You… are mine! I WILL BE THE DUNC!” *Last Resort by Papa Roach starts playing*
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Apr 12, 2024 07:50
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Doltos posted:From what I remember he specifically lets people who fall out his prescience to be bred and eventually assassinate him to spur the golden path forward. It's that and enacting a tyranny so unbearably prolonged and despotic that Ix is driven to develop non-spice based FTL to get away, iirc. It's true that the later Dune books fall off in coherence and quality but even then they remain loopy interesting
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Apr 12, 2024 08:19
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Mat Cauthon posted:https://twitter.com/quibvs/status/1778478473339699533?t=uw_k7O6ya67vL9dNe05oKg&s=19 lol at the needle drop at the DUNE title card
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Apr 12, 2024 08:45
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I’m watching this right now. poo poo rules. I like the part where they make out and their nose tubes rub against each other - so romantic. edit: oh gently caress me the arena scene ahhhhh Red Rox fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 10:39
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People are so hypocritical. No one complained about the spinal nutrient conduit ports in the sweaty sex scene in the later worse Matrix movie- but now a little nose tube upsets them!
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Apr 12, 2024 11:18
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Dune chat in the style of cunty Marvel/DC discourse is something we can all do without IMO Just like psychic messiah figures 
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Apr 12, 2024 11:43
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