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Capfalcon posted:Just finished last night, and after sleeping on the ending, I'm in the "Well, let's see how they pull it together in part 3" camp, as I am just as confused at this point of the story as I was in the original. Worse yet, it's not that he just designed it, isn't it implied he beat it? The Middle Manager is a force to be reckoned with.
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Apr 11, 2024 23:40
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NikkolasKing posted:He did make Vincent which I don't think had anything to do with Jenova. He just turned some random guy he shot into an immortal monster. He also made Vincent what he is by seducing his
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Apr 11, 2024 23:45
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Augus posted:in the original the only Sephiroth clone that made it to the Reunion was one that Hojo considered a reject and when he realized this he threw a temper tantrum That's not true, actually. It's something I always saw as weird. We explicitly see before the Jenova DEATH fight two black robed men with "Sephiroth" and he proceeds to kill them. But they got there, brain-scrambled normies that they were, they still climbed a mountain and got through a maze full of monsters and poo poo. He just killed them for it. Hojo wouldn't know this, of course. It's just...I felt bad for those two. They made it despite the overwhelming odds and Seph still killed them. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 23:46
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ZiegeDame posted:He also made Vincent what he is by seducing his People talk about all this weird stretches of logic and unable to buy into all these things. I just shake my head at them, pitying them for their cynicism. But that point? It stretches my incredulity to Pluto.
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Apr 11, 2024 23:50
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I thought I was closer to the ending than I was so I ended up doing like. 7 hours in a row or something insane. anyway I’m confused as gently caress. I guess it’s time travel multiverse stuff
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Apr 11, 2024 23:55
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:I thought I was closer to the ending than I was so I ended up doing like. 7 hours in a row or something insane. Kinda like climbing Shinra Tower, yeah?
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Apr 12, 2024 00:05
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We're gonna get a scene in part 3 where Barret complains about taking the stairs at Shinra HQ and Tifa is like "No we took the elevator you're insane"
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Apr 12, 2024 00:07
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Ok so all the flashbacks of aerith dying cloud has are different timelines where she always dies? And the one she wakes up and he saves her, that’s the aerith that comes to help you with sephiroth ? Is it somehow implied maybe she is as a different aerith all along? I remember in remake it was clear she knew something would happen
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Apr 12, 2024 00:08
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She talks about getting saved in third person ("I saw what you did back there, thank you") so....probably
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Apr 12, 2024 00:14
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I have no clue, but I understood that Aerith to be the transcendent lifestream ghost Aerith that knows the future and presumably saved Zack and Biggs in another possible world. She dissolves into lifestream after the fight and talks about being saved in the third person, so I don’t think she’s the Aerith Cloud saved (assuming Cloud actually saved a possible Aerith). I have no idea which Aerith Cloud is talking to at the very end of the game.
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Apr 12, 2024 03:32
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Jetrauben posted:Worse yet, it's not that he just designed it, isn't it implied he beat it? Man, why even bother making SOLDIERS? Just gotta have people be depressed desk jockeys who finally snap and realize Real Ultimate Power.
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Apr 12, 2024 04:04
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The UPA is extremely powerful and has my utmost respect. He's one of a kind.
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Apr 12, 2024 04:14
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ZiegeDame posted:He also made Vincent what he is by seducing his you'd think that would kill any attraction dead right there. who would want to be eskimo brothers with hojo
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Apr 12, 2024 04:17
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I think Aerith is bigger than 'alive or dead' now, a bit like in the original where she is the last thing you see before the credits roll. It's like the white materia itself, there is only one but it transcends realms and multiverses and is having a clear effect.
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Apr 12, 2024 04:47
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Jimbot posted:People talk about all this weird stretches of logic and unable to buy into all these things. I just shake my head at them, pitying them for their cynicism. But that point? It stretches my incredulity to Pluto. I mean, almost everything we know about Lucrecia is from her emo crush/stalker, right? Maybe she was a total freak that was down with Hojo's stupid plans, and Vincent was just pining right outside of view of her doctorate in Crimes Against Nature?
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Apr 12, 2024 04:56
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She's in Dirge of Cerberus so we do know more than that. I haven't played it though. My understanding is that she is, in fact, a freak.
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Apr 12, 2024 04:59
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I have no clue, but I understood that Aerith to be the transcendent lifestream ghost Aerith that knows the future and presumably saved Zack and Biggs in another possible world. She dissolves into lifestream after the fight and talks about being saved in the third person, so I don’t think she’s the Aerith Cloud saved (assuming Cloud actually saved a possible Aerith). I have no idea which Aerith Cloud is talking to at the very end of the game. the Aerith at the end of the game is the same Aerith that died and Cloud is seeing her spirit. The sad “goodbye” at the end doesn’t make much sense otherwise.
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Apr 12, 2024 05:00
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Aerith is gonna come back Gandalf style
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Apr 12, 2024 05:15
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Clarste posted:She's in Dirge of Cerberus so we do know more than that. I haven't played it though. My understanding is that she is, in fact, a freak. Yeah, to be clear, Lucretia was an incredibly bad person. She worked alongside Gast and Hojo but where Gast went "oh my god this poo poo gotta go" Lucretia basically was all-in on the Jenova project and perfectly fine with using her own unborn child as a test subject. The only time she actually showed regret was when Vincent was killed and even then she tried to solve it by shoving a monster materia inside of him. She did eventually feel guilty and try to kill herself (which failed because she injected herself with Jenova Juice) and now is going to spend eternity in crystal stasis as a It's something I like and I hope R3 sticks to. Vincent's true love interest was genuinely a pretty bad person and their relationship was fairly toxic. They had feelings for each other that were genuine but that doesn't actually change the fact that Vincent was worse off for knowing Lucretia in almost every sense and there's no real indication that a 'happy ending' would involve her being freed and hooking up with him. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 05:32
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Augus posted:the Aerith at the end of the game is the same Aerith that died and Cloud is seeing her spirit. The sad “goodbye” at the end doesn’t make much sense otherwise. If that were just her ghost from the same timeline then everyone else in the party should be able to see her too; nothing about Cloud gives him extra-special ghost affinity, but he did cross through timelines. The Goodbye could just be because she's stuck in a doomed timeline with the apocalypse sky, and hanging around the crew while only Cloud can see her is probably not good for either of their sanity.
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Apr 12, 2024 06:29
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And it looks like only cloud sees the doomed sky right? Oh poo poo callback to the steel sky line in remake. I just realized More that I think about it I do like the twist of “cloud regained his sanity now don’t worry guys” JUST IN TIME for him to literally be split between worlds and have a valid reason to lose his grip on reality. Ties In nicely with FF7 reunion being jenova cells > sephiroth > meteor, rebirth reunion being timelines > sephiroth. Cloud’s split personalities this time aren’t just being Zack, he’s literally remembering timelines thst did really “happen”
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Apr 12, 2024 09:18
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If there's one significant change that I'm kind of bummed about, it's with Nibelheim. Having an entire town gaslighting Cloud and Tifa about their respective backstories while they're both struggling with each others' version of events made the whole place incredibly creepy and interesting, and I feel like Rebirth abandoning that thread was a mistake.
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Apr 12, 2024 17:27
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Ace Transmuter posted:If there's one significant change that I'm kind of bummed about, it's with Nibelheim. Having an entire town gaslighting Cloud and Tifa about their respective backstories while they're both struggling with each others' version of events made the whole place incredibly creepy and interesting, and I feel like Rebirth abandoning that thread was a mistake. It would certainly have been creepier, but I think it's kind of core to Rebirth's way of doing things that you can't just throw the same mysteries at people that they now know the answers to, and expect the same reaction. They've been pretty consistent in throwing a twist in every time something like that comes up. Rand Brittain fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 17:50
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Rand Brittain posted:It would certainly have been creepier, but I think it's kind of core to Rebirth's way of doing things that you can't just throw the same mysteries at people that they now know the answers to, and expect the same reaction. They've been pretty consistent in throwing a twist in every time something like that comes up. It's honestly kinda more sinister, too. "Yeah, you used to live here, but you don't anymore. Buy some potions and hit the road, we're busy with all these black robes that you've been tracking across the planet."
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Apr 12, 2024 17:56
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Ace Transmuter posted:If there's one significant change that I'm kind of bummed about, it's with Nibelheim. Having an entire town gaslighting Cloud and Tifa about their respective backstories while they're both struggling with each others' version of events made the whole place incredibly creepy and interesting, and I feel like Rebirth abandoning that thread was a mistake. I thought it was in part due to NO ONE that lived there when Cloud and Tifa were kids live in that rebuilt "hospice" care version of the town. Everyone there that isn't a black robe is a Shinra employee, so it makes sense that those "residents" are like: " Oh you're from THAT time? Yeah please leave, I don't want a Turk death squad to wish me away to a ravine". I'm very curious how Rufus, and the rest of the active Turks try and haphazardly to get redeemed when they are just hollow genocidal people that I would rather see all of them dead. Especially with Rufus creating the terrorist organization, Avalanche, all so he could just usurp daddy. Jiro fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 19:59
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The only Turk who seemed to really show any misgivings about the Sector 7 murder was Reno. Tseng was like "Well if we didn't do it someone else would have" and Rude put his head down and charged at that Kill Everyone button like it was going to sprout boots and run away
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Apr 12, 2024 20:15
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DeathChicken posted:The only Turk who seemed to really show any misgivings about the Sector 7 murder was Reno. Tseng was like "Well if we didn't do it someone else would have" and Rude put his head down and charged at that Kill Everyone button like it was going to sprout boots and run away Did he even show remorse??? He was written off for a huge chunk due to the Japanese voice actor passing away. Even then at the Temple fights he just takes the same line as all the other Turks of cold indifference.
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Apr 12, 2024 20:34
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Reno grumbled and half assed through the whole operation and outright stalled when it came time to hit the button. Cloud outright told him to loving do already and he turned to fight the party instead. Tseng gave him that pep talk and vacation because he was probably dangerously close to the line where Tseng is professionally obligated to bump him off. Edit: Also the Gongaga Protorelic quest line is a set of Turk VR training simulations really strongly implied to directed at Reno, made so recently they include newly minted agent Elena, and culminate in a mission where he is directed to kill traitor agents Rude and Elena with a briefing from Tseng saying that when Turks go rogue the Turks are the ones that deal with it and that sounded really pointed directed at a dude who might be having second thoughts about his career. Caidin fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 21:01
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Caidin posted:Reno grumbled and half assed through the whole operation and outright stalled when it came time to hit the button. Cloud outright told him to loving do already and he turned to fight the party instead. I thought it was directed towards Cissnei since that was the region she was hiding out in and is still sort of a Turk.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:24
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At the time of the game, the Turks are recovering from the majority of their forces seemingly being killed in battle and Scarlet literally holding an axe over their heads to have them all killed if not for Rufus stepping in to stop it. That doesn't excuse what they're doing but canonically they are in a situation where they either play along or they get killed. Elena is probably the exception and Elena is the new dumbass rookie and her sister is one of those who got 'killed' off and she wasn't really involved in the actual plate drop. I presume they are going to get a redemption arc in the Return to Midgar/Meteorfall where they are shown doing everything they can to save people's lives during the evacuation, because that is canonically what they were doing during that time frame. (It's also when all the Turks who are in hiding come out of hiding to assist.)
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Apr 12, 2024 22:33
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Jiro posted:Did he even show remorse??? He was written off for a huge chunk due to the Japanese voice actor passing away. Even then at the Temple fights he just takes the same line as all the other Turks of cold indifference. Even in the Helicopter he's questioning and complaining about his orders. And his response to Tseng's explanation of "someone else would have done it and you have spared them the burden of a guilty conscience. Perhaps that will ease yours" was: "Yeah... No." So, I mean, pretty much the entire time, Reno was shown to be at least upset by the mission.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:36
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ImpAtom posted:I presume they are going to get a redemption arc in the Return to Midgar/Meteorfall where they are shown doing everything they can to save people's lives during the evacuation, because that is canonically what they were doing during that time frame. (It's also when all the Turks who are in hiding come out of hiding to assist.) Wait, do you mean in the original game? If so, was that in some supplement? All we do with them in OG FFVII is fight them or choose not to fight them if you did Wutai. I don't remember anything about them going around saving people.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:47
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Jiro posted:I thought it was directed towards Cissnei since that was the region she was hiding out in and is still sort of a Turk. It probably is but the fact that the holograms always got Rude calling your party "partner" and how they keep bringing up Avalanche I felt like it was going to lead up to a reveal the whole thing was for Reno but that never ended up happening. Anyway, I feel the core Turk trio will be "redeemed" similarly to in the original through being cool funny guys who mostly at a point stop trying to get in your way and seemingly come to like the party a lot more than they like their bosses. I don't think that's the angle they gonna take with Rufus though, I think he's gonna remain an antagonist but in the end he'll mostly be presented as someone you should feel sorry for rather than hate. Because I think Rebirth really leans into the idea that although he's competent and kinda cool deep down Rufus Shinra is mostly deeply pitiable and pathetic.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:51
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Actually I think Vincent's whole deal now was Lucrecia's doing, not Hojo. Hojo killed him, Lucrecia is the one who did the experiments on him to turn him into horror movie villains.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:52
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For what it's worth, Rude and Reno have a lot more going on in their backstory: Like the rough online of Rude's life: Dude joined the The Turks and thought it was a way to be proud of himself. He ended up finding out Shinra was doing a lot of bad poo poo but genuinely believed there were good people in the Turks. He ended up fighting against Genesis alongside the Turks and Zack, marking the first (but not last) time he had to deal with Shinra's bullshit. Fell in love with a girl who turned out to be an Avalanche Spy, who betrayed Avalanche because she loved him but then ghosted without telling him. Was sent on a suicide mission against Avalanche he survived because his boss stepped in. Was assigned to cleanup duty in Nibelheim and had a genuine "this is loving awful' response to that but at that point betraying Shinra gets people he cares about killed. Finds out about Zack, tries to disobey Shinra to go help him despite everything, is too late and Zack is killed. Tries to rescue his boss from Shinra's assassination squads, gets caught out, prepares to go out like Zack did until Tseng seemingly kills their boss to spare their lives. While this is going on the rest of the Turks are fighting a WEAPON and all seemingly loving die in the process while Rude and Reno watch. Then they get brought back to Shinra where they are about to be executed, except Rufus steps in and saves them in exchange for their loyalty (and the protection and treatment of their old boss who was not killed who is basically a hostage.) So as of the start of FF7, Rude has tried to betray Shinra multiple times and each time a bunch of people close to him die in the process and he gets nothing out of it and if he does it again then the few people he cares about left in the world die for it. So, perhaps unsurprisingly, he's willing to act because the alternative is his friends all dying.
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Apr 12, 2024 22:55
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A lot happens in Before Crisis I guess
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Apr 12, 2024 23:01
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SyntheticPolygon posted:It probably is but the fact that the holograms always got Rude calling your party "partner" and how they keep bringing up Avalanche I felt like it was going to lead up to a reveal the whole thing was for Reno but that never ended up happening. I guess I just find them irredeemable since the whole thing was to genocide 7 slums by genociding the people that lived on top of the plate, and all but one are shown to have any shred of remorse, same to a certain extent of "Extremist" Avalanche cell as well. Granted you get really deep and personal motivations for Jesse and Barrett, but not really Biggs or Wedge, Tifa sorta felt like a hostage in Remake. Plus the juxtaposition of how the Turks are fleshed out in these last two games vs Advent Children where they are just semi-incompetent comic relief is just all the more jarring. I would have rather Cloud (possibly possesed) just straight up merked them all in the Temple with Barrett, and Tifa not really being okay with it but not stopping it either due to what they've done. To me it would have been more interesting as far as "what's supposed to happen" getting twisted around by a Sephiroth that can manipulate fate and posses people with Jenova cells or his own genetic material. ImpAtom posted:For what it's worth, Rude and Reno have a lot more going on in their backstory: While really compelling sounding, I was never really one for supplemental material, and I view this like it's the Kingdom Hearts problem where massive chunks of story take place in other things, if having your main game can't be the main presentation of characters' motivations, actions, deeds then what are we doing? Lord knows there was more than enough time to have flashbacks or dialogue allusions to all that stuff you mentioned that could have been put into Remake and Rebirth. It just sounds like the games creators wanting to make popular characters likeable or give enough motivation to be liked and understood more. Rule of cool I guess. Jiro fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Apr 12, 2024 |
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Apr 12, 2024 23:09
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I mean Sephiroth has always basically been able to do that last bit. It's not new.
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Apr 12, 2024 23:11
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Barret not wanting to murder people anymore is kind of central to his character after he encountered his best friend who went whole hog on the murder.
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Apr 12, 2024 23:12
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Jiro posted:I guess I just find them irredeemable since the whole thing was to genocide 7 slums by genociding the people that lived on top of the plate, and all but one are shown to have any shred of remorse, same to a certain extent of "Extremist" Avalanche cell as well. Granted you get really deep and personal motivations for Jesse and Barrett, but not really Biggs or Wedge, Tifa sorta felt like a hostage in Remake. I mean in this case it isn't supplemental. Cissnei is one of the Before Crisis characters, Yuffie mentions allying with them in the DLC. It is genuinely part of the game the same way Crisis Core is
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Apr 12, 2024 23:17
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