(Thread IKs:
OwlFancier, crispix)
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Mesopotamia posted:I have a question for people here who probably know more, and it’s a genuine question because it’s not an area I am particularly in - have read and heard stuff from UK media on Cass report and it _seems_ reasonable, but seeing strong opinions against it. The report rejects dozens of verified studies about the benefit of puberty blockers for spurious reasons and hints at denying gender-affirming care to anyone with neurodiversity, anxiety or depression (and lol we're trans, we all have depression)
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Apr 11, 2024 19:34
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| # ? May 25, 2024 06:03 |
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The point of the media is to make things sound reasonable as well. As is the point of the report. Because the actual people behind the push against trans people are all far right lunatics, christian theocratic fascists, actual neo nazis, and insane people on twitter. And if you actually paid attention to what they were saying they'd come off like the raving lunatics they are. So that's the function of the ones in the press, they're there to put together milder sounding articles that just raise very legitimate concerns about the children to make you think "well I'm a sensible person who cares about the children, clearly we need more caution" while ignoring that kids who don't get the help they want end up utterly miserable if not dead. It hides the cost by trying to abstract away the urgent and immediate pain that people are in right this second to appeal to people who aren't seeing that pain, or who don't want to see it, so they can appeal for ever more delays and restrictions in the name of moderation and being sensible. The thin end of the wedge. Same function they serve for stuff like poverty, war etc. If you aren't directly seeing the effects of those things you can just read about the nice little sanitized versions in the paper and feel like you know what's happening but disconnected from the visceral reality of it. And anyone who isn't disconnected from that and so feels and speaks in a very raw and emotional fashion about those things, they then look like the irrational ones to you. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 19:39
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This is why I still think that the best counterattack is to discuss the benefits of delaying puberty in lots of different cases, because the anti-trans front have managed to portray them as simultaneously useless and extremely dangerous, and the vast majority of people aren't going to know any better because gender affirming care is deliberately hidden away in a corner.Guavanaut posted:What has surprised me (okay, nothing surprises me any more about the state of anti-trans panic in the UK) is that there hasn't been more public discussion of the benefits of delaying puberty even for cis kids without precocious puberty, as Elsimar Coutinho did in the 80s and 90s. Lowered lifetime risk of breast and generative organ cancers, lowered antisocial behaviour, increased likelihood of staying in school, that sort of thing ought to have impressed the Guardian and Times set and shut the terfs up (okay, nothing will shut the terfs up in the UK). Making people associate anyone who'd oppose that with the antivaxxers and lizardman conspiracy theorists shouldn't be too difficult (because they're all the same people).
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Apr 11, 2024 19:46
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OwlFancier posted:Owl: Eyes of a cold blooded murderer. Dead jealous, want one.
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Apr 11, 2024 19:47
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I'm quite attached to that owl because I got it from a little family run tea room out in the countryside, the grandmother of the family had a little case on the wall with things she'd knitted that you could buy. The place isn't there any more so it's not something I could ever replace.
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Apr 11, 2024 19:49
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Mesopotamia posted:I have a question for people here who probably know more, and it’s a genuine question because it’s not an area I am particularly in - have read and heard stuff from UK media on Cass report and it _seems_ reasonable, but seeing strong opinions against it. https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1777755823743054120
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Apr 11, 2024 19:53
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https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 Randomized controlled trials suggest little benefit to use of parachutes when jumping out of a plane.
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Apr 11, 2024 19:57
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There are valid reasons for excluding studies from your review because of x reason, but if you're dealing with an area of research that hasn't attracted a ton of funding (for some reason, hmm) then drawing a line in the sand that rules out the majority of available research and refusing to budge is arbitrary at best and incredibly suss the rest of the time.
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Apr 11, 2024 19:58
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Rarity posted:The report rejects dozens of verified studies about the benefit of puberty blockers for spurious reasons and hints at denying gender-affirming care to anyone with neurodiversity, anxiety or depression (and lol we're trans, we all have depression) Ah, so it's like with all the covidiots - they don't count because they have a pre-existing condition. Also I am not exactly surprised to see that they are now moving on to wanting to stop treatment for adults, it's almost like they don't actually care about kids...
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Apr 11, 2024 20:20
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Trans healthcare issues aren’t my forte, but I can understand the issues around the fact this is someone rather young, it’s a big decision and unfortunately in a lot of cases parents aren’t supportive makes it a big decision. As said this is something where we would need to understand a lot more in research, information on taking T after taking blocking medicine after changing their mind. I think at the moment the safest thing considering the mental health issues of those unable to get care is to make it available. Hope anyone who has been affected by the report and news is able to get some support if they need it.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:34
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https://twitter.com/SoupTransphobes/status/1777830992935301166 Randomized controlled trial where everyone gets a random genital adjustment and isn't allowed to look until after the study is over.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:38
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There's an unspoken assumption underneath all the "oh young kids shoudn't be making these decisions" which is that the decisions are being fabricated by the nefarious gay agenda and if that wasn't happening then nobody would have to make the decision. Because yeah, kids shouldn't have to make decisions that might affect the whole course of their lives. But they do, and they will keep having to do it whether or not you make the treatment available and whether or not you push them into the margins of society. Kids shouldn't have to do a lot of things, they shouldn't have to come forward about abuse and denounce the people who were supposed to look after them, but the solution to them doing that shouldn't be to gut child support services so that they can't report the abuse they suffer. They shouldn't have to seek help for suicidal impulses, but the solution there isn't to beat them more in school so they don't talk about it. A lot of people seem to think that kids only have bad things happen to them if it's either them doing it deliberately in which case they deserve it, or if there's some nefarious conspiracy to corrupt the youth. Like people seem to imagine that childhood is naturally idyllic and anything that suggests hosed up poo poo just happens to some kids and they have to deal with it using the imperfect tools they have access to and an imperfect understanding of the world, that thing must be stamped out and suppressed because maintaining that illusion is somehow vital to their understanding of the world. And if you want to help kids make it through the poo poo they experience as best they can, you are in fact encouraging bad poo poo to happen to them. That's at the core of the push against giliick competence, the idea that kids should not have any ability to control their own medical care because kids shouldn't need medical care and if they do their parents should be the ones to decide if they get it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 20:46
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If anyone wants a good overview of the science on the topic from a pro-trans perspective, I'd highly recommend the episode of the podcast Science Vs entitled "The Science Of Being Transgender" (Dec 13, 2018). I haven't listened to it in a while, but I remember it being really straightforward in its approach to the science but discussing the whole topic from an empathetic perspective. Basically, yes, high quality research does need to be done on the long-term effects of puberty blockers or hormone therapy on children, but so far the only real health risk that has been highlighted by scientists is (I believe) the chance of diminished bone density later in life. With that in mind, the body of research that we do have suggests that the benefits for transgender teens of puberty blockers and hormone therapy far outweigh the possible side effects.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:48
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OwlFancier posted:That's at the core of the push against giliick competence, the idea that kids should not have any ability to control their own medical care because kids shouldn't need medical care and if they do their parents should be the ones to decide if they get it. I was having this discussion with a university student earlier today. If a child wants to work on X but parents think that X isn't a priority but Y is, what do you do? And the answer is honestly that if I was working with parents who were completely opposed to me taking their child's views seriously, I'd be speaking to my local safeguarding team very soon. You can work with parents to help them understand the child's views, you can try to come to a compromise, you can do a bit of X and a bit o Y... but ultimately, if parents refuse to engage with what their child wants, I'm considering that a form of emotional abuse and carrying out my statutory responsibilities.
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Apr 11, 2024 20:57
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Mesopotamia posted:Feel hesitant asking this, but genuinely asking and interested to know. People here seem to be much closer to this discussion than I am. The demand for the studies to be double blind is kind of inhuman in that it relies on taking thousands of trans kids and secretly giving them placebos instead of blockers which is an absolutely hosed idea - the blind side of the study would then be celebrating 'yeah more of those kids killed themselves because of what we did' just to confirm something the study opens by acknowledging is true. They're not messing with abstract proofs here, these are human lives. If I found myself writing a study that began something like "The evidence shows that trans kids are more likely to kill themselves if they don't transition early or get puberty blockers: however..." I think I'd put my pen down, take a long look at myself in the mirror, and then hurl myself off a pier. It also gives a very weaselly summary statement that 'trans kids are being let down by the healthcare system': It's true in the sense that trans kids are being let down by horrifyingly long wait times, gatekeeping and now the prohibition of puberty blockers; but what the report means is they're being 'let down' because doctors aren't assuming mental illness as the 'cause.' The wording leans on the transphobic trope that trans people are just confused or that being trans is a mental illness that needs to be cured. It's also going to enable the smarmiest cunts on twitter to reply to everything with "I thought you wanted better care for trans kids, why are you disagreeing with this report I'm visibly holding upside down." It's poo poo science being used to back up poo poo views for poo poo people.
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Apr 11, 2024 21:06
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Look, doctor, I just think that this "wanting to repair my broken leg" thing is just a phase she's going through. Can't we just try getting her to properly give a go to walking around on it and adjusting. I've looked and there's no double-blind controlled trials for getting your leg fixed. There's no evidence. What's happened is she's seen all these tick-tocks about people with broken legs having them treated and painting rosy pictures of the end result, but this is a serious procedure with risks and wide-ranging implications and I don't think her brain is Developed enough to consider these properly. I mean, she's only twenty-four years old
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Apr 11, 2024 21:10
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The minute that article came out about the woman 'grieving' her transitioned child we should have invited the entire UK media corps down the cellar to look at this very special bottle of wine.
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Apr 11, 2024 21:13
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Was that before or after the one with the journo grieving her son because he got a tattoo?
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Apr 11, 2024 21:14
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OwlFancier posted:Was that before or after the one with the journo grieving her son because he got a tattoo? God that was the best non-Chiles Guardian article
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Apr 11, 2024 21:20
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Mesopotamia posted:I have a question for people here who probably know more, and it’s a genuine question because it’s not an area I am particularly in - have read and heard stuff from UK media on Cass report and it _seems_ reasonable, but seeing strong opinions against it. similar thing happened with the Cochrane review on masking last year, give or take, only the outcome of this is far worse
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Apr 11, 2024 21:20
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GBeebies biggest financial backer is pulling out  
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Apr 11, 2024 21:26
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What it all comes down to re: trans rights, puberty blockers for children etc. is that your kids are your private property, by right, and if they want to make decisions you disagree with then it shouldn't be allowed, and the government should help you, the parent, to enforce your property rights, since that is the sole role of government.
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Apr 11, 2024 21:36
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for anyone here who isn't up to reading a 288-page report but want something more substantial than forum posts, there's a 12-page summary linked here which goes through major issues with the Cass review.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:07
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Angepain posted:for anyone here who isn't up to reading a 288-page report but want something more substantial than forum posts, there's a 12-page summary linked here which goes through major issues with the Cass review. quote:[NHS England] has announced that it is appointing Sir Simon Wessely to head up a new research oversight board. Wessely concentrates on psychosocial models for poorly understood conditions such as ME, CFS and Gulf War Syndrome. The concern is that he views trans people in the same light – namely that being trans is not a ‘real’ condition or does not need medication – and will disregard any evidence that counters this view.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:16
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CGI Stardust posted:oh gently caress me they want to get Wessely involved, that's dire CFS/ME peep here... loving hell....
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Apr 11, 2024 22:17
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CGI Stardust posted:oh gently caress me they want to get Wessely involved, that's dire it does mean we can save vital kilobytes by using the same "shut up wesley" gif for both him and Streeting
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Apr 11, 2024 22:18
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Simon Wessely used bad science to inflict torture on CFS/ME patients, resulting in making people far sicker, and in extreme cases, literally killing them. He was a proponent of Graded Exercise Therapy which forced CFS/ME patients onto an exercise regime that kept increasing in activity. It's literally the worst thing someone with CFS to do. He's a really nasty oval office. I can't stress that enough. I honestly thought he'd been shamed into retirement.... fuctifino fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 11, 2024 |
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Apr 11, 2024 22:26
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One of the few times I've been very glad to see 300 posts overnight and it be a thread fight instead of us going to war with Iran or something (hey the week's not over yet) I'm very glad he's gone because gently caress someone "just asking questions", especially about Wes' poo poo opinions on trans people.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:28
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fuctifino posted:tl;dr: Simon Wessely used bad science to inflict torture on CFS/ME patients, resulting in making people far sicker, and in extreme cases, literally killing them. He was a proponent of Graded Exercise Therapy which forced CFS/ME patients onto an exercise regime that kept increasing in activity. It's literally the worst thing someone with CFS to do. wasn't familiar with the guy but that sounds awful. would love to make myself feel like poo poo by reading more if you have any recommendations.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:34
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Nuclear Spoon posted:wasn't familiar with the guy but that sounds awful. would love to make myself feel like poo poo by reading more if you have any recommendations. There's a good blog post from 2016 that goes into detail, when the bad science was exposed: https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/21/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-pace-trial/ And 2020 when the official medical advice was changed - https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4774/rr-4 For 20 years, these cunts were promoting putting chronically ill people on exercise regimes knowing it would make some bedridden or worse, while also promoting the belief that CFS/ME was a psychological condition. These treatments literally killed friends of mine while making others bedridden. I had to fight really hard back in the day to refuse being forced onto such treatments.... The other treatment he promoted was CBT, which is mostly useless but doesn't kill.
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Apr 11, 2024 22:43
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Guavanaut posted:https://twitter.com/SoupTransphobes/status/1777830992935301166 Yeah for this and a fair few other medical issues, double blind controlled studies aren't just things that haven't been done, they're actually unethical. see: the tuskegee syphilis experiments, which were pretty scientifically rigorous and also crimes against humanity
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Apr 11, 2024 22:58
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WhatEvil posted:What it all comes down to re: trans rights, puberty blockers for children etc. is that your kids are your private property, by right, and if they want to make decisions you disagree with then it shouldn't be allowed, and the government should help you, the parent, to enforce your property rights, since that is the sole role of government. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_cb6ec6UjA
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Apr 11, 2024 22:59
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Josef bugman posted:If I can volunteer to be IK, if only so that I can go mad with power and start probing people over and over for everything. I would happily IK and only go a little bit the full Josef Stalin. Someone has to after all
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Apr 11, 2024 23:05
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The most votes so far have been for Crispix. I just need to point this out. CRISPIX FOR IK!!!!
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Apr 11, 2024 23:06
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Someone in the village has one of those high-pitched noise generators, I assume to scare cats out of the garden rather than annoying young people. I'm just glad that I can still hear it, my old ears still haven't completely degraded. Of course it does mean I hear a loud annoying noise any time I walk down the main street in the village but hey, my ears still work despite a long time of listening to headphones too loud
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Apr 11, 2024 23:06
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I'm here for Crispix being an IK as well. He's a good egg.
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Apr 11, 2024 23:17
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i agree it is a good cereal
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Apr 11, 2024 23:46
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thank you lubbers it is my birthday today, too 
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Apr 12, 2024 00:02
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Mesopotamia posted:I have a question for people here who probably know more, and it’s a genuine question because it’s not an area I am particularly in - have read and heard stuff from UK media on Cass report and it _seems_ reasonable, but seeing strong opinions against it. If you think the report seems reasonable based on what's being said about it, I implore you to actually read it. The document is full of dog whistles and contains huge amounts of transphobia, but even leaving that to one side, the content, arguments, and data from the study that has been chosen to support the arguments are actually laughable and incoherent. Like, it's a bad piece of analysis and scientific communication even if you have no issues with the ethical foundation of it.
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Apr 12, 2024 00:09
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Posted earlier:Piell posted:From the transphobic Cass report, when you know how to make exactly one curve Look at this and tell me that this was made by serious people with anyone's best interests at heart.
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Apr 12, 2024 00:15
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