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Bisse posted:Loot filters ARE a bandaid fix for core design issues. Right off the bat I can think of 10+ RPGs ive played that had wildly varied builds with varied drops and had no need for loot filters. I do actually like that D4 is trying to fix the core issues instead of adding loot filters. rpgs or arpgs
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Apr 13, 2024 17:52
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Herstory Begins Now posted:color me skeptical that blizzard has actually fixed both arpg itemization and the need for a loot filter Bisse fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 17:52
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Herstory Begins Now posted:rpgs or arpgs Scotsman or True Scotsman?
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Apr 13, 2024 17:53
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Node posted:okay I'll be that guy: what exactly is a loot filter? I haven't played other arpgs besides Diablo. Is it something like where you enter "if item=gloves, and critchance less than 5, then autosell?" In PoE it's implemented mostly by using a fan made website that links directly to your account to store a file on your cloud account. The file itself sets which loot you see that falls. Not an auto sell, just you don't see the junk. Most of the stuff that falls on the ground has zero reason to exist, so you just never see it. If you didn't have the filter, you'd have to stare at piles of things to find the few good ones. Now, now, why is there piles of crap no one would ever want for any reason? In Diablo I think it's there to make enemies feel like pinatas. In PoE you never see the drops with a filter on, so it...doesn't? I'm also sure there's some edge case where you might want some of that garbage loot, but I'm in camp "bad design to drop things that have no reason to exist" but I'm also not a designer.
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Apr 13, 2024 17:54
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That’s not what people use PoE filters for
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Apr 13, 2024 17:55
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Bisse posted:On the PTR they mostly did imho, the only thing missing is highlight items with Greater Affixes which they said they are going to look at, if they do that it will take very very long, far into lv100 with maxed out items, until you reach the point where the built in color and highlights are no longer enough to help you discard the non-useful items in less than 10s. i hope they did because lord knows the genre needs it but I will wait and see how the playerbase responds before declaring arpg loot fixed Bisse posted:Scotsman or True Scotsman?  you know as well as I do that it's a significant difference and there's a reason why a game where you kill x mobs an hour might have different loot-sorting needs than a game where you kill x^5 mobs an hourBisse posted:Like the only thing left to do would be to use AI to highlight the best item for your build which would take the last remaining ounces of brainpower out of the game entirely, which like, would not be my preference personally. little green arrows pointing up perhaps?
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Apr 13, 2024 17:57
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I just want incinerate to not suck in the new season. I miss being a dungeon janitor like diablo 3 disintegrate wizard.
unattended spaghetti fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 18:00
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Herstory Begins Now posted:rpgs or arpgs Great RPG's like Baldurs Gate 3. No filter there!
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Apr 13, 2024 18:01
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bamhand posted:Great RPG's like Baldurs Gate 3. No filter there! No no no even though that is topdown and click mobs to kill and had loot pinatas and stats etc it doesnt qualify as an A R P G because!!!!!!! And therefore there is nothing we can learn from it and its solutions completely do not apply because Bisse fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 18:05
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Downside to Baldur's Gate 3 is that they had the stupid rarity colors on them. That blue you found in the first area of the first act was just as good at that purple you found in Act 3. Heckin' good itemization in that game.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:12
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I don't see why we need loot drops at all. Final Fantasy Tactics had like 30 classes and you just buy your loot from the store. Maybe just have each uber boss drop a single piece of loot and everything else drops gold.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:16
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I'd be happy to see a game pull off no filters successfully in the modern gaming sphere, but the reality is that these games are glorified slot machines and without that dopamine hit, people just log off. the money dictates that these companies must play it safe in regards of their dopamine hits, and safe dictates that you start high and either work your way down to find the sweet spot, or allow your players to walk it down themselves via a filter. you can't start at the low end, because then you have a defective slot machine. people can call loot filters a bandaid fix all they want, but there is no straightforward solution to loot that satisfies everybody. some people want to hype fixate on one character, some like making 20 alts and never reach the endgame. some don't want to see "lesser" loot at all, and some want "twink" poo poo. the best solution is always going to be a filter to let player choose their own interests, but (afaik) only last epoch makes the filter accessible enough that the average player will make use of them to achieve this goal. I can't really comment on the ptr changes aside saying they look better, as I didn't bother testing. I'm sure they'll continue to make passes at it until enough players stop complaining about it.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:20
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I'm pretty sure loot filters in PoE are specifically to prevent your computer from melting. See for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xox-VIKszKk Why exactly it needs to be this way is left as an exercise to the reader.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:21
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PoE players use filters to highlight items for builds but also for the market and whatever mechanics they want to play in the end game. I’m not sure there are actually any pointless items in the game, just ones that come into and out of use depending on where you are in the game and what you’re doing.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:34
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PoE smartly designs to a niche and has become the king of it. Holding PoE up as "hmmm questionable game design here" is a self-own. Sure they could probably improve, dropping 10+ whites on the off chance one is useful is clunky even if you embrace the PoE madness. Diablo 4 is fixing a lot of problems loot filters could help with, such as normal items in WT3/4 and sacred in WT4. That's the most basic useful functionality of a loot filter. Why have more useless information to parse? Not "bad for my build" or "might be useful on an alt" or "might be good if run through the crafting system." No, it's literally useless and can't actually possess better numbers. Likewise I'd enjoy the option to filter by important gear passives I can't change, such as boots with more dash charges. If a pair of boots doesn't have that I might as well not see it. I can toggle this off and on if I need to pick up trash for the various recycling programs ARPGs have for crafting. Pair with other basic functionality like Grim Dawn, where I can turn off whites after Act 1 and turn off/on yellows as needed, they're good for bulk selling for gold. If my character is so optimized at end game that I only want to see potential legendaries/set items then yeah I can turn off blues(or the rare equivalent) too. It's a quality of life request, not proof that the poster is terminally ARPG-brained. It's optional so even if you have no use for or have a reason to reject a QoL option it doesn't impact your game that other people have it.
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Apr 13, 2024 18:35
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Bisse posted:Loot filters ARE a bandaid fix for core design issues. Right off the bat I can think of 10+ RPGs ive played that had wildly varied builds with varied drops and had no need for loot filters. I do actually like that D4 is trying to fix the core issues instead of adding loot filters. they arent arpgs. the point of arpgs is loot. why do you all want to "fix" things that are core to the genre and the entire reason ppl play the games lol
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Apr 13, 2024 18:59
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Bisse posted:No no no even though that is topdown and click mobs to kill and had loot pinatas and stats etc it doesnt qualify as an A R P G because!!!!!!! And therefore there is nothing we can learn from it and its solutions completely do not apply because bg3 is turn based. even if you wanted to do the moron sementic "action rpg  " thing it would make absolutely zero sense. its specifically the type of rpg diablo defined itself as different from to garner the genre name of an Action rpg.
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Apr 13, 2024 19:02
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bamhand posted:I don't see why we need loot drops at all. Final Fantasy Tactics had like 30 classes and you just buy your loot from the store. Maybe just have each uber boss drop a single piece of loot and everything else drops gold. This is one of those posts where I can't tell if this is very dry humor or just dumb.
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Apr 13, 2024 19:07
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as donald rumsfeld famously said of game development, you design a game with the team of mmorpg designers you have not the team of arpg designers you wish you had
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Apr 13, 2024 19:10
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Tonetta posted:I'd be happy to see a game pull off no filters successfully in the modern gaming sphere, but the reality is that these games are glorified slot machines and without that dopamine hit, people just log off. the money dictates that these companies must play it safe in regards of their dopamine hits, and safe dictates that you start high and either work your way down to find the sweet spot, or allow your players to walk it down themselves via a filter. you can't start at the low end, because then you have a defective slot machine. what modern gaming sphere wtf are you all talking about. this is a genre thats so niche and underserved its considered a golden age when two new titles that have serious flaws come out with a third release still not out due to endless delays. its a genre from 20 years ago thats completely archaic. feel like everyone is permanently befuddled because some of the design language got absorbed into mmos and live service games
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Apr 13, 2024 19:12
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Stux posted:what modern gaming sphere wtf are you all talking about. this is a genre thats so niche and underserved its considered a golden age when two new titles that have serious flaws come out with a third release still not out due to endless delays. its a genre from 20 years ago thats completely archaic. feel like everyone is permanently befuddled because some of the design language got absorbed into mmos and live service games what's the game that's being endlessly delayed?
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Apr 13, 2024 19:23
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Peachfart posted:This is one of those posts where I can't tell if this is very dry humor or just dumb. Bisse posted:
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Apr 13, 2024 19:33
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Pick up everything I don’t need a loot filter
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Apr 13, 2024 19:38
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An Actual Princess posted:what's the game that's being endlessly delayed? poe2 lol
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Apr 13, 2024 19:41
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What's gonna be the default currencu for trading?
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Apr 13, 2024 19:47
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Time
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Apr 13, 2024 19:52
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Having been playing Diablo since the day the first game was released in stores, so sorry thread, but Stux is right and this conversation is super stupid. Play something else, please. This genre isn't for some of you, and that's totally fine.
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Apr 13, 2024 19:55
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I said come in! posted:Having been playing Diablo since the day the first game was released in stores, so sorry thread, but Stux is right and this conversation is super stupid. Play something else, please. This genre isn't for some of you, and that's totally fine. 
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Apr 13, 2024 20:00
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flashman posted:What's gonna be the default currencu for trading? SoJs like Anu intended.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:02
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Stux posted:bg3 is turn based. even if you wanted to do the moron sementic "action rpg Or to put it another way whenever loot filter comes up I feel like it is a hammer looking for a nail to hammer in, problem is there are much better solutions to the problem. For example, D4 has this problem and people have been screaming ”loot filter, idiot blizztards” for since game release. Blizz did a MUCH BETTER THING in the PTR which is (hopefully) solve the basic loot problem. If they had added a loot filter instead, that may never have happened. The reason it matters is because loot filters have massive drawbacks. Just for starters, they are newbie hostile, immersion breaking, and encourage bad game design patterns like the PoE computer crashing video. So it is much better if they simply are not needed. ”But this genre isn’t for the people who” actually it is lol, killing 10mil demons an hour is fun even to the 99% of players who don’t want to crawl community pages for optimal loot filters for the game to even be playable. And BG3 is a fantastic loving example because it gets this a lot more right than most ARPGs. Bisse fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 20:04
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Stux posted:poe2 lol oh lmfao
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Apr 13, 2024 20:04
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Bisse posted:Aha ok it is Turn Based and therefore it contains no loot, no wait ok but it does not have any similarities at all and the loot does not fill the same purpose at all, oh ok BG3 loot also ’feel good’ to get but we are talking about a completely different type of reward system, oh ok that was also dopamine but it is literally impossible to learn ANYTHING AT ALL from idk what ur even saying anymore but bg3 and diablo have nothing to learn from each other because they're wildly different games that aren't trying to do the same thing in any single respect. Good luck with the rest of ur bullshit though
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Apr 13, 2024 20:07
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Why do these games insist on having inputs, Progress Quest solved that issue like 25 years ago
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Apr 13, 2024 20:09
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I said come in! posted:Having been playing Diablo since the day the first game was released in stores, so sorry thread, but Stux is right and this conversation is super stupid. Play something else, please. This genre isn't for some of you, and that's totally fine. but they got my three favorite things, shroud kfc and emgan fox, to market it
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Apr 13, 2024 20:09
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True, just like I can’t learn anything about cinematography from Stanley Kubrick because he did scifi stuff and I shoot kung fu movies.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:10
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oh you were serious about the bg3 comparison? I suppose it is possible that d4 could pivot to being an RPG instead of an arpg, but imo that would both be pissing away the main strength of the game and also d4 is probably going to struggle a lot more in comparisons to rpgs than it does to the casino buffet that is the arpg genre
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Apr 13, 2024 20:13
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I suppose it is possible that d4 could pivot to being an RPG instead of an arpg
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Apr 13, 2024 20:15
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ARPGs don't have to be looters. It's a subgenre. Borderlands isn't an ARPG (or an AFPS or whatever nonsense). In Blizzard's surveys for Diablo, they consider Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma ARPGs, and they're right!
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Apr 13, 2024 20:16
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tbh d2 with a basic base+rarity loot filter is even nicer, highlight runeword bases you want, key unique bases or rare bases that 'could' be good i could agree that d4 doesn't need it due to basically making gear so locked to a class as well as rares being useless (more so in s4) nonetheless a filter/highlight that just highlights the things you are looking for, so you can just junk everything else is a great idea. the reason the poe filter is a great idea is because it fixes the issue where the dopamine hits from dropped gear will diminish as you get better and better gear. By filtering out stuff that isn't an upgrade, or by highlighting good stuff, you allow the player to keep getting that dopamine hit when an item drops The 'this is an upgrade because numbers' style of marking items in inv sucks because it doesn't actually let the player influence what is an upgrade for them and having the game lie to you about an upgrade sucks rear end. Plus it only occurs after you pick up the item not at drop
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Apr 13, 2024 20:17
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MJBuddy posted:Borderlands isn't an ARPG (or an AFPS or whatever nonsense). 
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Apr 13, 2024 20:19
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