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It's kind of funny that role-playing game mostly means "video game with stats"
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Apr 13, 2024 20:28
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MJBuddy posted:ARPGs don't have to be looters. It's a subgenre. Borderlands isn't an ARPG (or an AFPS or whatever nonsense). most people in the context we're talking are using arpg as diablo-like and not the very useless broader definition. if u want ill just say diablo-like from now on. i dont care what blizzard corporate defines genres as for customer surveys, at all.
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Apr 13, 2024 20:32
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Bisse posted:Well that would be dumb, but it IS possible that ARPGs could rework their loot to be a lot less clutter and cumbersome to deal with while simultaneously being more fun to engage with and scoring dopamine hits more successfully. i genuinely hope they figure it out MJBuddy posted:In Blizzard's surveys for Diablo, they consider Skyrim and Dragon's Dogma ARPGs, and they're right! lol
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Apr 13, 2024 20:43
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Super Metroid is also an arpg
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Apr 13, 2024 20:51
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picturing rod fergusson playing through dragons dogma and skyrim to figure out what kind of game he's meant to be making and suddenly a lot more makes sense
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Apr 13, 2024 20:52
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Forza Horizon 5, the newest ARPG from Microsoft
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Apr 13, 2024 21:44
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They should. Make the loot more like other successful. Arpgs, such as world of Warcraft
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Apr 13, 2024 21:55
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Bisse posted:Aha ok it is Turn Based and therefore it contains no loot, no wait ok but it does not have any similarities at all and the loot does not fill the same purpose at all, oh ok BG3 loot also ’feel good’ to get but we are talking about a completely different type of reward system, oh ok that was also dopamine but it is literally impossible to learn ANYTHING AT ALL from bro wtf are you yapping about. i like bg3 but i dont want bg3 loot in an arpg, thats extremely stupid. you sound like you have no idea on even a surface level why completely different games make different design choices at all. bg3 loot is about providing a large toolkit of active abilities and specific triggers, and it works because the gameplay is turn and party based. because you can prep for each encounter and can deliberate choices during combat it means your hotbar can look like this  and it isnt a downside. and because you take four characters into fights, with other characters you can swap in for specific encounters or when another character leaves or dies, it means a much broader range of loot is immediately relevant. also the reason bg3 loot is "right" vs even other games from larian is because all of the interesting loot is hand made and hand placed! which is a luxury you have in a linear narrative focused game where rewards can be put in specific places. its like comparing chalk and cheese. you also dont seem to understand why people want a loot filter, because you think its objectively a drawback. a loot filter is preferable to loot being more "relevant" because its more interesting for me as the player to decide what is relevant or not for my build, and a game will never be able to make that choice for me better than i can for myself. this means there can be a wide variety of loot with lots of edge cases or niches for people to exploit. arpg loot that is designed to be "relevant" generally means that build diversity is lessened and it takes away agency from the player. its much less interesting to me personally to have stuff dropping that i know will be usuable because theres 5 stats in the game and it will only let me drop the 1 stat that does something for the character im playing. a loot filter isnt newbie hostile unless you assume every single person playing a given game has the intellect of a 5 year old. i have no idea how its immersion breaking over any other choice made int eh genre, at all, feels like you just said that to have a third thing to put. and it isnt bad game design its game design you personally do not enjoy, and while its fine to not enjoy things and say why it doesnt work for you it makes you look completely deranged when you get to the point where yuo are now saying the game thats generally regarded as the best in the entire genre is actually completely wrong without taking a second to consider if the things youre saying are wrong are what other people are looking for.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:10
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like u dont even understand that the video of poe crashing is sick lol. when i had to rebind the show all loot button last league because pressing it was crashing my maps, i wasnt upset about it, i was happy.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:12
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MJBuddy posted:ARPGs don't have to be looters. It's a subgenre. Borderlands isn't an ARPG (or an AFPS or whatever nonsense). If I can climb all over big enemies and pick up then throw NPCs and party members I'll take back everything negative I've ever said about this game.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:19
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yes?
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Apr 13, 2024 22:20
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Stux posted:bro wtf are you yapping about. i like bg3 but i dont want bg3 loot in an arpg, thats extremely stupid. you sound like you have no idea on even a surface level why completely different games make different design choices at all. bg3 loot is about providing a large toolkit of active abilities and specific triggers, and it works because the gameplay is turn and party based. because you can prep for each encounter and can deliberate choices during combat it means your hotbar can look like this Good post. And that's from the perspective of a person that thinks the need of a loot filter is silly. But I appreciate your articulation of the other side of it. I personally like finding the synergy itself, not so much the optimization bit. I think the difference of degree has a lot to do with whether you like or love ARPGs. Obviously I'm in the like category. Guess I find them cool as hell up front and dull as dish water pretty quickly.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:25
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stux I think you have a very fixed idea of what an ARPG has to be and an even more fixed idea of what it needs to be to be good etc. Saying anyone who doesnt immediately understand your favourite solution to the problem has the intellect of a five year old is kind of unimpressive. You seem unreasonably worked up that some people on the internet see things differently than you and enjoy the same game but in different ways than you. Lets disagree on agreeing and move on and discuss the WASD movement in PoE2 or something instead, that sure looks cool. Bisse fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 22:37
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can I just say I've worked on two Diablo style arpgs and stux is 100% right and we all just move the gently caress on
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Apr 13, 2024 22:44
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bg3 is an amazing game but its philosophy of loot is incomparable to diablo's. you'd have more grounds for comparison between it and demon's souls.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:45
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Loot should be cool for the things I'm doing "wow +5 to SMASH AREA on my barbarian smash build!" and encourage you with a sneaky elbow to the ribs to try other stuff. "+10 to fire wizard explosions?!" For all the ragging people do on it I love the way Nioh does this as I'm starting the game as Fight Spear Man and then it introduces me to the idea that not only can I super buff ninjutsu but I can do so as my primary way of combat and synergize it with whatever Asian fight sticks I'm using, stuff like that. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 22:50
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Figuring out my own loot filter in Last Epoch was fun and also pretty easy. I think the part that makes POE filter daunting is because the game is daunting. It's got more complicated weirder systems. D4 has even simpler systems as far as I understand. Stux posted:its more interesting for me as the player to decide what is relevant or not for my build That's what I think is most fun about a loot filter. It makes you think about the game.
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Apr 13, 2024 22:53
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Bisse posted:stux I think you have a very fixed idea of what an ARPG has to be and an even more fixed idea of what it needs to be to be good etc. Saying anyone who doesnt immediately understand your favourite solution to the problem has the intellect of a five year old is kind of unimpressive. You seem unreasonably worked up that some people on the internet see things differently than you and enjoy the same game but in different ways than you. your post was very obviously upset but ok. we'll just take this as a W for me bcos you are unable to articulate yourself 
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Apr 13, 2024 22:55
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doomfunk posted:stux is 100% right *gasps from the audience*
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Apr 13, 2024 22:56
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also i didnt say ppl had the intellect of a 5 year old, i said if you think this is too daunting then you must believe the average player is stupid
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Apr 13, 2024 22:57
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victrix posted:*gasps from the audience* This is the first time I have 100% agreed with him.
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Apr 13, 2024 23:01
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I'll say I'm unlikely to personally use a loot filter but it's an important accessibility tool for a significant cohort of players. the issue is a loot filter needs to be prioritized against other UI/UX needs and that's always a matter of horse trading. Whether and if a loot filter makes it in is always going to be judged against other features. but I agree they're important, fairly normal in the subgenre, and not hard to use. e: in case anyone asks I'm unlikely to use one because I'm a hoarder who saves everything then eventually panics and blows up their whole stash and repeats the cycle ad infinitum. this is a me problem that could be helped by using the loot filter but I simply will not because I am an idiot.
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Apr 13, 2024 23:04
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Doomykins posted:Loot should be cool for the things I'm doing "wow +5 to SMASH AREA on my barbarian smash build!" and encourage you with a sneaky elbow to the ribs to try other stuff. "+10 to fire wizard explosions?!" The set bonuses in that game are really good (A shame they didn't do that for Rise of the Ronin - it's one of my issues with that fantastic game) but the 1.7% increments drive me up a wall. Even if it didn't have less loot, having better % increments would be a step in the right direction. For all my issues with the loot stuff in this genre, I found myself not really minding the loot in those games, aside from the low % increments. The nature of being an action game really lends itself well to the whole thing.
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Apr 13, 2024 23:15
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I just realized this thread is the roguelike thread arpg genre and loot filter discourse is the roguelike definition purgatory
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Apr 13, 2024 23:16
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victrix posted:*gasps from the audience* its more likely than u think
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Apr 13, 2024 23:22
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doomfunk posted:I'll say I'm unlikely to personally use a loot filter but it's an important accessibility tool for a significant cohort of players. the issue is a loot filter needs to be prioritized against other UI/UX needs and that's always a matter of horse trading. Whether and if a loot filter makes it in is always going to be judged against other features. Weak excuse because the game made like a billion dollars just make it good Bros, it doesnt have to be choose between zooming out and a loot filter or w.e
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Apr 14, 2024 00:12
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D4 devs with concerns about where they can allocate their manpower. Hmm. Ah, of course. All hands on deck for the Gauntlet, a feature enjoyed by at least 3 digits of players, nearly 4!
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Apr 14, 2024 00:16
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I don't work there anymore. I'm not defending anything. that was a statement of fact about how literally every studio anywhere treats a rare and highly specialized field of design. please jog on.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:31
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We were really gonna add some badass stuff but the people demanded loot filters, a feature that has never been accomplished before in the genre
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Apr 14, 2024 00:37
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Why put a bandaid over healthy skin?
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Apr 14, 2024 00:43
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It never seemed to me like the D4 team was particularly large or that most of the development talent stuck around after launch but I don’t have any way of knowing for sure.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:58
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victrix posted:I just realized this thread is the roguelike thread Roguelike fans have even been having the Great Loot Filter Debate for 20+ years, though they call(ed) it squelching.
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Apr 14, 2024 01:15
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victrix posted:*gasps from the audience* lol
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Apr 14, 2024 01:31
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MJBuddy posted:ARPGs don't have to be looters. It's a subgenre. Borderlands isn't an ARPG (or an AFPS or whatever nonsense). Holy poo poo.
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Apr 14, 2024 01:36
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Kaysette posted:Holy poo poo. It's been 400 posts since the PTS launched arguing semantics poorly and I wanted in since there's nothing else happening here
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Apr 14, 2024 02:05
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Season 4 cant come soon enough.
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Apr 14, 2024 02:08
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doomfunk posted:I'll say I'm unlikely to personally use a loot filter but it's an important accessibility tool for a significant cohort of players. This is a good point as well, games that use colour differences to determine which loot is worth picking up and which isn't are poo poo for me because I often can't tell the colours apart. I'd pick up a primal in D3 and not realise I had until I got back to town.
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Apr 14, 2024 02:13
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d4 shouldve made the legendaries purple or something instead of trying to keep the d3 color. having yellow rares, orange legendary and beige uniques is so awfu l lol
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Apr 14, 2024 02:26
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or perhaps they were trying to teach us your struggle...
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Apr 14, 2024 02:28
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Stux posted:d4 shouldve made the legendaries purple or something instead of trying to keep the d3 color. having yellow rares, orange legendary and beige uniques is so awfu l lol Uniques are sharpie gold.
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Apr 14, 2024 03:04
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