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yippee cahier posted:I’m using Caseta dimmers without temperature control for my lights, so nothing I can directly recommend. I’m sure there’s a home automation thread or esphome reddit sub where they can give a heads up about sales on easy to flash lights. After doing a bit of googling, it does look like it’s a bit annoying to try to locate compatible ones and flash them (if you’re not into electronics), so hopefully I didn’t get your hopes up for nothing. If you’re ok with zigbee, Ikea bulbs are standard and can be used without their hub. I did ask on the r/homeautomation subreddit and they were uniformly useless. Afaict if you're unwilling to use google home or alexa about 95% of the sub is straight out. At this point I've basically resolved to just use Home Assistant and I've been using their forums to guide purchasing decisions. I bought a Home Assistant Green after messing with an install on a lovely computer. Then, through the HA forums I found some lights that people were able to finagle into working for <$1 apiece as long as you bought a pack of 20 from the wholesaler. So I've plunked down a couple bucks on all that and I'm pretty sure I can get what I want going that way. I'll be back for a trip report one way or another. Methylethylaldehyde posted:Doing the networking properly via the wall is trivial. I've basically resolved to bring him over one of these weekends so we can experiment with the process using he RJ-11 jack in the master bedroom. I figure worst case scenario I break the RJ-11 jack. Who gives a gently caress.
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Apr 14, 2024 08:14
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Coolguye posted:Yeah I started talking with my dad on the topic and he was pretty confident we could do something close to what you are suggesting. He's a little more skittish about the wire fishing portion of the process, he seemed to think that would be an enormous pain in the rear end and might involve me loving up my freshly-painted walls. But last time we were at the house to replace some of the loving chandeliers I pointed out the RJ-11 phone jacks and asked if we could use those worthless things to help with that process. He reluctantly admitted we probably could. Ehhhhhh. RJ-11 jacks are usually just CAT3 cable. So you're only getting three pair. If you're just looking to run basic analogue signals over POTS lines, it might work. But if you're looking for any sort of bandwidth above that, you'll need to rip those out anyway for some CAT5 or better. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 13:01
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I thought the idea was to use the existing telephone cable as a pull wire?
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Apr 14, 2024 14:58
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SpeedFreek posted:I thought the idea was to use the existing telephone cable as a pull wire? Phone wiring is typically daisy chained around a house from jack to jack. Ethernet needs to be home runs. There's little that phone jacks are likely to "help" other than already having a hole in the wall - potentially with a low volt ring but even more likely with a full bax that's going to to be in the way.
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Apr 14, 2024 15:04
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If you get lucky it might be pulled into a rats nest in the attic!
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Apr 14, 2024 15:18
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AlternateNu posted:Ehhhhhh. RJ-11 jacks are usually just CAT3 cable. So you're only getting three pair. If you're just looking to run basic analogue signals over POTS lines, it might work. But if you're looking for any sort of bandwidth above that, you'll need to rip those out anyway for some CAT5 or better. 4 pair CAT3 exists. Best it can do is 10 Mbit though.
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Apr 14, 2024 16:26
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Motronic posted:Phone wiring is typically daisy chained around a house from jack to jack. Ethernet needs to be home runs. There's little that phone jacks are likely to "help" other than already having a hole in the wall - potentially with a low volt ring but even more likely with a full bax that's going to to be in the way. the hole in the wall (and the baseboards) is really the only thing i'm hoping to get out of them so that's basically right in my mind. really the overall goal of the initial exploration is to pop off the RJ-11 jack and see if there are existing holes down to the first floor that we could use. in an ideal world it already goes downstairs somehow and we just throw an ethernet cable right alongside the telephone cable. in a terrible one i gently caress everything up and somehow break either the RJ-11 outlet or the telephone cable, at which point i quietly replace the faceplate and never speak of it again. i never intend to use a land-line telephone and most likely whoever buys the house from me won't either because even as forgotten and obsolete technology it still manages to engender more harassment and interruptions than cell phones. so on the whole there's relatively little to lose. just to be clear in the case where i do use the same holes, i would be running plain old gigabit ethernet cable/cat6. i'd just feed it the extra 3 feet to one side so i could make an entirely new outlet near the telephone jack. all this is assuming a LOT of course so how far i go with this plan depends on what i see when i peer past the RJ-11 jack; if it looks awful there's definitely always the option of replacing the faceplate without really touching anything. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 16:28
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I was helping my brother out at his house with some hosed up wiring and when I popped open his GE panel I saw this, among other things. Was this to code back in the late 70's?  I should also mention the stuff I was there to fix. A PO had previously build out some lovely closet in the garage which was taking up a large amount of space and not useful at all, so he wanted to rip it out. It's purely superficial walls came down easily, except the PO had also added some wiring over the years and instead of running it up the wall cavity with the panel, had just kind of strung it loosely around the inside of the closet and then stabbed holes in the ceiling to run it up into the attic and to the rest of the house. Wiring must have been cheap back in the day because the majority of it was 10 gauge. Including a huge strand of 10/3 being used for a single 120v 20amp circuit. It's also worth pointing out that they used the wrong brand of breaker for this circuit, and instead of actually screwing the 10 gauge conductor into the breaker, they just wedged it between the screw and the housing of the breaker   I wish I had thought to get a picture of the one junction box where 5 different 10 gauge wires were nutted together. I don't think box fill was ever a concern for the PO. I ran the circuits through the wall cavity properly, and set him up with proper breakers that are AFCI/GFCI protected. The mystery 10/3 wire circuit keeps tripping the GFCI. I followed it to a floating junction box deep within the attic that has 4 more wires coming out of it, but I couldn't get to it without building out a crawl way. I suspect the neutrals are crossed with another circuit, and the GFCI doesn't like that. We didn't have time to do all that so we're just going to leave it off, but we don't know what it powers, so we went to every outlet, light, and appliance we could find and tested them and nothing seems to be off. So god knows what that junction box is even doing. SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 15:54
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First picture seems fine to me, other than some lazy pushing wires through too far on the neutral bar. This, however, terrifies me. Like, not as an issue today, but at some unspecified time in the future. There's a possibility that the breaker is approved for use in the panel. I don't know for sure, but investigation may prove that it's a valid installation. I have hesitations given the spacing between the add-on new breaker and the older existing ones. My real issue is that wire termination. Looks like poor contact that works for now, but if that circuit is ever stressed, that connection is probably getting worse and a ticket to Fire Town. I think the wire is sitting on top of the cage clamp it's supposed to be resting inside? It's hard to tell from the one picture. Luckily, this should be solvable in a minute or two with a screwdriver and some appropriate caution.
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Apr 15, 2024 16:37
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Explosionface posted:First picture seems fine to me, other than some lazy pushing wires through too far on the neutral bar. This has already all been taken care of. My concern in the first picture is the like 15 ground wires all being shoved into one big lug.
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Apr 15, 2024 16:48
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SpartanIvy posted:This has already all been taken care of. My concern in the first picture is the like 15 ground wires all being shoved into one big lug. That's "fine". I don't know if it was to code and under what code, but it's very common. Spend $6 on a new ground bar and re-wire if it bothers you. I wouldn't unless I was doing extensive amounts of other work in the panel.
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Apr 15, 2024 17:11
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Motronic posted:That's "fine". I don't know if it was to code and under what code, but it's very common. Spend $6 on a new ground bar and re-wire if it bothers you. I wouldn't unless I was doing extensive amounts of other work in the panel. That was my thinking. Everything was nice and tight and it's obviously been fine for 50+ years so I didn't touch that at all. Just curious if that was code/common back in the day.
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Apr 15, 2024 17:22
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SpartanIvy posted:That was my thinking. Everything was nice and tight and it's obviously been fine for 50+ years so I didn't touch that at all. Just curious if that was code/common back in the day. It definitely was very common in the days of rag wire insulation and the little 18 or 20 gauge undersized ground conductors. After that too, because I've seen a lof of fuse panel to breaker panel replacements done that way.
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Apr 15, 2024 17:37
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I have seen lugs listed with crazy wire ranges. like: 10-19 #18 6-16 #16 6-14 #14 4-10 #12 2-8 #10 1-4 #8 1-4 #6 1-2 #4 1 #2 1 #1 1 #0 1 #00 Not for sale recently, though. Pretty sure they were Westinghouse lugs.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:15
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I don't know if this is an optical illusion or what but this looks like a jiggle away from contact. I know it's been fine for 50 years or whatever and none of those wires are touched or easy to move but whew boy.
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Apr 16, 2024 02:01
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H110Hawk posted:I don't know if this is an optical illusion or what but this looks like a jiggle away from contact. I know it's been fine for 50 years or whatever and none of those wires are touched or easy to move but whew boy. That's the neutral lug so it is actually very important that they are touching! 
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Apr 16, 2024 04:43
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SpartanIvy posted:That's the neutral lug so it is actually very important that they are touching! I definitely did not miss that the first time I looked. Nope.
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Apr 16, 2024 06:37
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Qwijib0 posted:This is a basic switch loop: Right, so took me a while to figure out the multimeter and find time to play with what I now know is called the "ceiling rose". Thanks to this video, I was able to establish which pair is in continuity when the light switch is flipped on. But just bundling those together still leaves all the sockets in the room and adjoining room without power. What's the next step? Should I flip the breaker on and figure out which wires are supplying power? Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 17:54
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We recently got a house to stash my mom that was built in 1961 . . . right before ground was required. So it has a fuse box and no ground. It's using nylon-braided wiring. Some of the fuses are 30A. I'm not on-site there right now so I wasn't able to verify the circuits that were fused with 30A, but I have bad feeling they're 20A circuits that got the 30A fuse treatment. I think the rule of thumb there is to doubt the integrity of any wiring "upgraded" like that. We went in with a notion of completely rewiring in the first place and thought we adjusted ourselves accordingly, but all the quotes are coming up wild. Well, it's more like I don't think we understood post-Covid pricing for anything and they're coming in normal. So we're torn on doing it anyways. We're suspecting it'll come back in the resale since the house was sitting for a long time on the market (presumably because of this and something that the inspector missed that's going to turn into a war). A major problem with rewiring is that the roof angle is really acute, so it's very much a crawl-on-your-belly affair. Most of the rest is accessible from underneath in the basement, but some of it is in a crawl space instead. We're considering some alternatives (in order of severity): 1. Apparently there are retrofits for fuses to convert them to breakers? We just do that and call it a day. 2. We install a new panel and put in GFCI breakers. Presumably, we later can work off of this to add or modify circuits. 3. Some or all of the circuits get replaced with Romex with a ground up to their receptacles. Anything in the ceiling runs without a ground. I think this would be DIY since I'm not sure an electrician could/would do it. That's probably a hint to its suitability. 4. Anything beyond that is going into a full rewire. We were also getting quotes assuming drywall was mostly retained, and we're now reviewing what would happen if we got into different levels of drywall busting. Is there anything else we should be considering?
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Apr 22, 2024 18:59
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Fruits of the sea posted:Right, so took me a while to figure out the multimeter and find time to play with what I now know is called the "ceiling rose". Thanks to this video, I was able to establish which pair is in continuity when the light switch is flipped on. But just bundling those together still leaves all the sockets in the room and adjoining room without power. You found the two wires that go down to the switch. the power and the switch leg. In the ceiling those two should not be tied together. One of those is tied to the power from the panel's breaker and the switch leg connects to your light. I'm seeing sheathing around every set of two wires in your photos so we can presume there's no ground wires. Four sets in total, one set go to the switch, one from the panel, one to a receptacle in the next room. You have to find out what that fourth set goes to. Knowing which wires are from the panel's breaker will be useful to prevent damage to equipment. You mentioned there's only one breaker off right now: If all the wires are disconnected you can check in voltage mode with your multimeter between every combination of wires with the breaker off. If there is a wire that has a difference of about 230v with the breaker off then there's a second breaker in the on position. Meaning, there could be damage to equipment and further troubleshooting is needed. If there is a difference of 0v then there is only one breaker powering the lights and receptacles which is probably what's happened here. I'm seeing this picture again and seeing the two possible neutrals disconnected here. If there really is just one breaker in this situation then go back to this situation and connect the two common neutrals together to complete the circuit
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Apr 23, 2024 01:27
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:We recently got a house to stash my mom that was built in 1961 . . . right before ground was required. So it has a fuse box and no ground. It's using nylon-braided wiring. Some of the fuses are 30A. I'm not on-site there right now so I wasn't able to verify the circuits that were fused with 30A, but I have bad feeling they're 20A circuits that got the 30A fuse treatment. I think the rule of thumb there is to doubt the integrity of any wiring "upgraded" like that. A panel swap would be the safest option. You can buy a circuit breaker tracer and map the layout of your home to identify how many receptacles and/or lights are on each breaker. Our NEC recommends no more than 8 receptacles per breaker on 15amp breaker and 10 receptacles on 20 amp breaker. Your breaker size will be limited to the existing wire guage. 14g will be for a 15A breaker and 12g will be for 20A breaker. AFCI breakers can be supplied to the bedroom receptacles. My local teaches us to have no more than 5 devices on a GFCI load side if you want to save money on new devices. Those downstream devices are to be labelled "GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground." Any GFCI device installed with no ground will simply be marked with “No Equipment Ground." Some continuous loads like refrigerators are not recommend to be protected by GFCI since there can be nuisance tripping. Increasing the fuse size is the previous owner overloading the circuit and finding a bad solution. Most common way that happens is an electric heater. The most likely causes of electrical fires are arcing at device terminations. If you inspect for any existing burn marks or melting plastic it should be replaced.
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Apr 23, 2024 02:02
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Hey, thanks for the response, but I got fixated on something here for unrelated reasons:Jabronie posted:AFCI breakers can be supplied to the bedroom receptacles. My local teaches us to have no more than 5 devices on a GFCI load side if you want to save money on new devices. Is there some similar limit to AFCI breakers? In our previous house, we had it completely rewired and they had installed AFCI breakers as part of the updated code. Those original AFCI breakers were very grouchy. I think the breakers themselves were just bad because I had better luck with replacements later, but I wonder if there were some constraints that weren't followed like that GFCI limit and it encouraged nuisance tripping. ...I mean, we could also just assume the completely rewired circuits all had problems in them or something too...
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Apr 23, 2024 08:29
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Hey, thanks for the response, but I got fixated on something here for unrelated reasons: Adding devices introduces more opportunities for arcing and triggering the afci but no, there is no nec limit to those breakers other than the rated amperage. 15a - 8, 20a - 10. Also, if you’re upgrading your panel you may as well go to 200a service for any future upgrades.
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Apr 23, 2024 11:41
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Hey, thanks for the response, but I got fixated on something here for unrelated reasons: I would say that you should still, in 2024, be prepared for AFCIs to be pretty grouchy. This is just based on my personal experience of switching my house entirely to (edit: COMBINATION GFCI)/AFCIs - 21 SquareD QO (the most recent kind I think PAF? with the green/purple buttons) and another 12 Homeline. The Homelines have been fine, but of the QOs we had two that essentially just had issues and kept nuisance tripping, and we know it was the breakers because we replaced a bunch of other stuff on the circuits before replacing the breakers (with the same type) and the trips went away. The only thing that trips now is our 40 amp oven GFCI when the oven is set above 400 degrees  (may also be when using convection, i.e. fan motor, we haven't tested that yet).Obviously I'm not saying it's still like 2014 when electricians got their hatred of AFCIs because half of them would nuisance trip for no actual reason, and there is also a benefit to having the breaker trip for an actual issue. We had a smart dimmer switch that was broken and letting current through to ground, and the combination GFCI/AFCI tripped, properly, when the old 1970s breaker hadn't done a drat thing. Replaced the switch and all was well. So you should absolutely go to AFCIs, just be aware they're still more prone to having problems than standard breakers. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 23, 2024 20:24
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Weren't AFCI's added to the code something like 20 years ago? We still haven't figured out how to make them? Edit: Yes I bet for 5x the price that they'd work fine. I'm just venting.
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Apr 23, 2024 20:43
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:Weren't AFCI's added to the code something like 20 years ago? We still haven't figured out how to make them? They do work fine, they just expose bad wiring both in your house and in your appliances. See the thread title. Nuisance trips these days, if they can't be traced to a motor that needs new brushes or an ancient X10 system, effectively don't exist. E: quote:We had a smart dimmer switch that was broken and letting current through to ground or neutral (not sure, didn't go far enough in testing) That's not what AFCIs detect at all, they're detecting RF noise on the line from arcs that happen as faulty/loose wiring heats up. corgski fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 23, 2024 |
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Apr 23, 2024 21:05
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FWIW it's worth while I didn't need to I opted to do AFCI on all my 20amp/120v circuits when I replaced my 40-slot panel last year and have had not 1 single trip in my 1980 built house. This was actually a surprise to me, I had expected at least a few issues, but nothing, nada, they're even tandem AFCI breakers. It definitely seems like they've improved since those early days.
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Apr 23, 2024 21:30
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I also went full AFCI/GFCI with my panel replacement/house rewire about 3 years ago, and haven't had a single nuisance trip, but part of the rewire was also rewiring (or at least inspecting everything where it was traceable in the basement) every run to remove all the bad wiring (original 1920s knob & tube! Yay!). The only thing I've actually had problems with is this ancient squirrel cage blower in the garage, it immediately trips both my AFCI and GFCI circuits in the garage, but if I want ventilation out there I'm probably better off just getting something new in a better physical location anyways.
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Apr 23, 2024 22:52
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corgski posted:
Er, yes, but the GFCI part of the combo AFCI/GFCI sure does detect current going to ground. Point is I previously had breakers that were not detecting anything other than overcurrent (and given they were Federal Pacific, they probably weren't detecting that either ), and moving to modern breakers helped expose bad wiring/devices as you mentioned.Of course maybe it would have been good if I'd actually said combo AFCI/GFCI but I just ASSumed everyone knew what I meant because I would be surprised if people bought non combo ones, assuming they make AFCI-only. That said, previous post edited, thanks for making me clarify as terminology precision is pretty critical in electric wiring endeavors. SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 02:09
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Er, yes, but the GFCI part of the combo AFCI/GFCI sure does detect current going to ground. Point is I previously had breakers that were not detecting anything other than overcurrent (and given they were Federal Pacific, they probably weren't detecting that either FYI, what you're talking about are CAFCI breakers. AFCI breakers do arc fault. GFCI breakers do ground fault. CAFCI breaker do both.
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Apr 24, 2024 03:02
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Motronic posted:FYI, what you're talking about are CAFCI breakers. AFCI breakers do arc fault. GFCI breakers do ground fault. CAFCI breaker do both. Yes. I was under the impression the C was for combination.
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Apr 24, 2024 03:20
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AFCI + GFCI is a dual function breaker. Modern AFCI alone is actually CAFCI because I guess the original AFCI back in the 00's didn't do as much?
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Apr 24, 2024 03:55
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Elem7 posted:AFCI + GFCI is a dual function breaker. Modern AFCI alone is actually CAFCI because I guess the original AFCI back in the 00's didn't do as much? Yeah.......good point. These terms do vary depnding on whether it's in code or someone's product catalog. Yay? But in any case, there is a distinction and I guess we need to spell it out to make sure we're all talking about the same thing.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:08
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Rewinding the the meat and potatoes of Jabronie's original response:Jabronie posted:A panel swap would be the safest option. You can buy a circuit breaker tracer and map the layout of your home to identify how many receptacles and/or lights are on each breaker. Our NEC recommends no more than 8 receptacles per breaker on 15amp breaker and 10 receptacles on 20 amp breaker. Your breaker size will be limited to the existing wire guage. 14g will be for a 15A breaker and 12g will be for 20A breaker. quote:AFCI breakers can be supplied to the bedroom receptacles. quote:My local teaches us to have no more than 5 devices on a GFCI load side if you want to save money on new devices. Those downstream devices are to be labelled "GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground." Any GFCI device installed with no ground will simply be marked with “No Equipment Ground." Some continuous loads like refrigerators are not recommend to be protected by GFCI since there can be nuisance tripping. quote:Increasing the fuse size is the previous owner overloading the circuit and finding a bad solution. Most common way that happens is an electric heater. The most likely causes of electrical fires are arcing at device terminations. If you inspect for any existing burn marks or melting plastic it should be replaced. Also, yeah 200A service would be the way to go with a panel swap.
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Apr 24, 2024 07:13
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:
No, AFCI/CAFCI breakers do not include any GFCI protection whatsoever. AFCIs only trip on parallel arcs (intermittent shorts to netural/ground with arcing,) CAFCIs trip on parallel and series arcs (loose connections inline in a circuit.) Any modern "AFCI" breaker on the market is going to be a CAFCI. You must use CAFCI+GFCI breakers (sometimes also called DFCI or "Dual Function") if you want protection for both arc faults and ground faults in your panel. This includes on any circuits where you have no equipment ground and you're using the GFCI method of bringing them up to code. E: Motronic posted:FYI, what you're talking about are CAFCI breakers. AFCI breakers do arc fault. GFCI breakers do ground fault. CAFCI breaker do both. You're describing dual function/DFCI, CAFCI has never meant ground fault protection. corgski fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 15:56
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Yes. I was under the impression the C was for combination. It is. Decades ago there were two types of AFCI breakers before they were combined into one. Then on top of that, there are dual function breakers, which add the two types of AFCI to GFCI. Confused yet? kid sinister fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:01
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:
It’s true, insulation will melt or become more brittle if there’s more current flowing than the wire is rated for. That decision can be left to the electrician doing the panel upgrade since we don’t know how long the wires were being overloaded. Obviously he isn’t going to be landing these old cables if they’re falling apart as he’s working with them and would have to recommend a rewire. Also, id recommend commercial grade receptacles for any outlet that’s being plugged into a lot such as spots for vacuums or kitchen appliances. They’ll cost a little more but the springs will last longer.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:05
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Jabronie posted:Also, id recommend commercial grade receptacles for any outlet that’s being plugged into a lot such as spots for vacuums or kitchen appliances. They’ll cost a little more but the springs will last longer. Seconding commercial grade outlets for countertops.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:11
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corgski posted:No, AFCI/CAFCI breakers do not include any GFCI protection whatsoever. AFCIs only trip on parallel arcs (intermittent shorts to netural/ground with arcing,) CAFCIs trip on parallel and series arcs (loose connections inline in a circuit.) Any modern "AFCI" breaker on the market is going to be a CAFCI. I’m just going to use regular breakers lol
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Apr 24, 2024 17:17
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AFCI terminology is very confusing as is combo breaker stuff. I had written up a post about it but everyone else beat me to it.Jabronie posted:Also, id recommend commercial grade receptacles for any outlet that’s being plugged into a lot such as spots for vacuums or kitchen appliances. They’ll cost a little more but the springs will last longer. Strongly agree. I use commercial or industrial grade anywhere it'll be used frequently.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:53
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