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MeinPanzer posted:Actually, the more that I think about, the less that I understand the whole situation with Ishido, Mariko, and the hostages. Maybe I missed some subtle dialogue along the way or something. Mariko didn't come to deliver a message though, her orders were to bring the toranaga hostages at the castle back to toranaga. Even if ishido let mariko leave alone, mariko would still protest that she couldn't carry out her lord's orders (because ishido is keeping the others hostage) and the same events would probably play out No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 22:21
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MeinPanzer posted:This was a fantastic episode. The one thing that I found a bit unconvincing, though, is that Mariko could ever think that her standing in front of the explosives would do much to shield everyone else, given her size.
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Apr 16, 2024 22:21
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MeinPanzer posted:Actually, the more that I think about, the less that I understand the whole situation with Ishido, Mariko, and the hostages. Maybe I missed some subtle dialogue along the way or something. It was delicate balance and nobody wanted to be the first to upset it. Everybody knew that they were hostages as much as guests, but everybody also knew that Ishido didn't truly have the clout to stop them all if they all decided at once to leave. Ishido's power is based in legalism and precedent more than raw military might, and trying to imprison everyone by force would just lead to a civil war with him losing in the end. However, nobody wanted to be the first one to actually raise or even force the issue, because that would be painting a huge target on their backs. They might be allowed to leave, but Ishido would still be able to severely gently caress with whoever he considered guilty after the fact. After all, everyone is expecting Toranaga to lose and Ishido to remain in power, so it would seem safer to just sit the whole thing out in Osaka rather than risk anything. But Mariko was able to make that first move, and escalated it to the maximum, because she had nothing to lose. And once she had raised that precedent that it was possible to leave, the balance of power tipped. At that point Ishido had no more legal pretense to even try to keep anybody in, and any attempt to say otherwise would be so obviously tyrannical that the remaining nobles would feel forced to revolt.
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Apr 16, 2024 22:27
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Also, I fully admit that I ate crow watching that last ep. I didn't think the writers could convey the delicate balance Toranaga was maintaining with his plan (somewhere between master strategist and sad daimyo) but for me, they did it. The way it played out, Toranaga didn't even need Yabu to betray him. The plan to turn the other lords against Ishido and Ochiba would likely have succeeded, but with Mariko murdered, Toranaga now reaps all the benefits of his plan, with the added outrage of the death that Ishido can't play off as some random bandit bullshit. E: I swear I did not steal "delicate balance" from the previous poster (I was typing while they were apparently) but I think both of us using that phrase is pretty indicative of what the writers were trying to convey. Toranaga's plan wasn't perfect. It could have failed if Ishido had been a little more savvy (insisted on a private audience with Mariko, cut her off when the conversation started to shift etc) but it did play out to his advantage. It was high risk. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 22:46
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Mariko’s husband has been through a lot.
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Apr 16, 2024 22:55
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Jerusalem posted:I think Ishido's plan was effectively a variation of the "lotta "bandits" around Osaka all of a sudden, eh?" strategy where everybody knows it is bullshit but decorum dictates you can't openly call it out. By having Mariko captured by Shinobi, he could claim it was a sign of the dangers outside the castle and the "unfortunate" necessity of insisting the remaining "guests" remain in the castle with a tripled guard for their "protection", probably blaming Toranaga for causing dissension that had emboldened "bandits". Also not a great plan because the shinobi attack happened inside the castle.
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Apr 16, 2024 22:59
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I like to think it was the peasant barb that drove Ishido over the edge.
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Apr 16, 2024 23:16
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drat good episode.
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Apr 16, 2024 23:51
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God drat that was an episode of television. The whole season has been great but that tension for the entire episode oh my god.
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Apr 16, 2024 23:58
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McNally posted:Also not a great plan because the shinobi attack happened inside the castle. Yeah, he killed a regent earlier. He just let him leave the castle and then had him murked on the road. I dunno I probably woulda gone with that plan again.
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Apr 17, 2024 00:11
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Osaka is an incredibly dangerous city to be near it would seem.
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Apr 17, 2024 00:53
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Burns posted:drat good episode.  Show started good and has just gotten better and better.
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Apr 17, 2024 01:38
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counterfeitsaint posted:Osaka is an incredibly dangerous city to be near it would seem. Someone should probably confiscate all these swords or something.
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Apr 17, 2024 01:44
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Osaka would not be so rowdy again for more than 400 years, until the night the hanshin tigers broke the curse of the colonel
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Apr 17, 2024 01:57
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I haven’t read the book but my wife and I are convinced that this whole thing is Toranaga’s idea. Yeah it’s brutal to put his people in danger, but he’s brutal when necessary, and it would work more to his advantage to start a revolt against Ishido and Ochiba by making it look like they turned on Mariko after freeing her. The first reason we thought of it was that the shinobi notably avoid killing Toranaga’s sleeping concubine and infant son. Yes, then they’re all trapped in that room and about to die, but I can see Toranaga’s original orders being “try to get them out if you can, but your top priority is inciting this rebellion.” I will say that we had a hard time figuring out who was who in the dark rooms and we haven’t rewatched those scenes, so we might be reading it incorrectly. But I don’t see how sending shinobi after Mariko benefits Ishido, and I do see how it benefits Toranaga. I’m not asking for spoilers from folks who know for sure how it shakes out, just wondering if anybody else saw it the same way? I’ve read reviews and everyone seems to be blaming it on Ishido, and that never occurred to either of us as a real possibility. So now I wonder if I, too, have been 5D chessed.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:03
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Dikkfor posted:Someone should probably confiscate all these swords or something.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:04
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Blue Scream posted:The first reason we thought of it was that the shinobi notably avoid killing Toranaga’s sleeping concubine and infant son. That could simply be down to not wanting to give Toranaga ANOTHER 49 days of mourning to plan further mischief!
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Apr 17, 2024 02:12
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One really great moment was the sudden blast from Blackthorne's gun when people are fighting in the dark.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:13
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Dikkfor posted:Someone should probably confiscate all these swords or something. As we all know, the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a sword is
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Apr 17, 2024 02:14
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Will do a more in depth writeup later but this was one of the best episodes of television I've ever seen. Anna Sawai owned every scene. That's kinda been the standard since the beginning.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:30
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If they nail the finale, Shogun might be my favorite season of TV ever. Andor before it, but Shogun has done so much with just 10 episodes.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:42
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Based on his track record so far, Toranaga is gonna show up next episode in the coolest loving outfit anybody has ever seen and everybody agrees he can take over Japan because holy poo poo look at that outfit!
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Apr 17, 2024 02:42
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I'd love toranaga to prove me wrong but I think mariko stole the best drip award from him at the last moment, perhaps one of the all time TV twists. I mean she had like 5 perfect outfits back to back in this
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Apr 17, 2024 02:57
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Nybble posted:If they nail the finale, Shogun might be my favorite season of TV ever. Andor before it, but Shogun has done so much with just 10 episodes. Yabu would have exactly the same vibe if he were an ISB officer
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Apr 17, 2024 03:13
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PostNouveau posted:Yeah, he killed a regent earlier. He just let him leave the castle and then had him murked on the road. I dunno I probably woulda gone with that plan again. But the whole point is that Mariko couldn't leave the castle. After she left, what happened to her was irrelevant. The original argument as to why Ishido was keeping everyone hostage was because there was a Toranaga plot against the heir. If Mariko is permitted to leave, then every other hostage will ask to leave. Ishido can probably pressure people one on one to stay, but Mariko leaving precipitates everyone to ask to leave. So "killing her on the road" does nothing for him: it's not her death that he is interested in. It's not losing his grip on the other regents by losing the hostages.
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Apr 17, 2024 03:16
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Dikkfor posted:Someone should probably confiscate all these swords or something. I'm so sick of all these shoguns
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Apr 17, 2024 03:18
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i guess it was finally time for blackthorne to show the guns, whole series makes sense now
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Apr 17, 2024 03:22
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Blackthorne reaching through the wall to grab a ninja to shoot him through the wall was a badass move. That was a brutal episode, drat near Breaking Bad s4 finale levels of tension. RIP Mariko, you were too hot for the 17th century.
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Apr 17, 2024 03:51
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obi_ant posted:The assassins were Toranaga’s men? The reactor thought Yabu was a loyal Toranaga boy all along and this was the thousands-storming-the-castle moment of Crimson Sky. Bit of a Marvel brain moment. Also, they were too busy mugging to the camera to pay attention to all the hints earlier in the episode about Yabu.
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Apr 17, 2024 03:55
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Stegosnaurlax posted:That's kinda been the standard since the beginning. I was nervous at the start, given I had just watched her in Monarch. But I guess that's almost entirely down to the writing than the acting.
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Apr 17, 2024 04:06
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Blue Scream posted:I haven’t read the book but my wife and I are convinced that this whole thing is Toranaga’s idea. Yeah it’s brutal to put his people in danger, but he’s brutal when necessary, and it would work more to his advantage to start a revolt against Ishido and Ochiba by making it look like they turned on Mariko after freeing her. The key element you and your wife are missing is Yabushige. Earlier in the episode he receives a message from Ishido saying that his life will be spared... if he does one favor for him. Then later in the episode Yabu starts killing his own men unprovoked so he could go down sight unseen to unlock a side entrance that allowed the shinobi inside. So the favor Ishido had asked of Yabu was allowing the shinobi into the castle to do their thing and he not interfere. Edit: For the record I'm not a book reader, that's just my analysis of what I saw in the episode. I don't know how similar or different things shake out in the book.
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Apr 17, 2024 04:06
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joepinetree posted:But the whole point is that Mariko couldn't leave the castle. After she left, what happened to her was irrelevant. I figure if he kills her on the road it establishes a different precarious state where everyone knows they could leave if they press the issue, but they will be murdered if they do, so no one does.
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Apr 17, 2024 04:07
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PostNouveau posted:I figure if he kills her on the road it establishes a different precarious state where everyone knows they could leave if they press the issue, but they will be murdered if they do, so no one does. That is the sort of thing you can do one at a time. Not everyone at a time.
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Apr 17, 2024 04:17
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7Es_v1NlM0
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Apr 17, 2024 04:18
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Ballz posted:The key element you and your wife are missing is Yabushige. For all the different directions the previous episodes took from the book, this episode was mostly faithful to the source. Which created an added bonus for me because I genuinely didn't now if a thing would transpire as it does in the book, but I trust the show to know what it's doing even with changed elements. For instance, in episode 8 Hiromatsu actually survives to the end of the book, so that was a shocker. Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 04:22
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Jerusalem posted:Based on his track record so far, Toranaga is gonna show up next episode in the coolest loving outfit anybody has ever seen and everybody agrees he can take over Japan because holy poo poo look at that outfit! The shrine in Nikko dedicated to Tokugawa Ieyasu is notoriously blingy compared with the style of the time, so it fits. It's like his son took all the wrong lessons from daddy's fashion sense. From wiki: 
Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 04:30
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Blue Scream posted:I haven’t read the book but my wife and I are convinced that this whole thing is Toranaga’s idea. Yeah it’s brutal to put his people in danger, but he’s brutal when necessary, and it would work more to his advantage to start a revolt against Ishido and Ochiba by making it look like they turned on Mariko after freeing her. I have not read the books at all but I agree with you on all points but after combing through several previous episodes I cannot find definitive proof either way. The shinobi do explicitly spare anyone they can. As they crept through the room with the guards, they simply checked everyone to see who it was. Only when the guard woke did they kill them. Not only did they spare the consort and the newest child of Toranaga, they spared everyone in that room after checking to see who they were. There is no paper order for Yabushige. Only a verbal message. Yabushige is known to everyone, especially Toranaga, to play both sides and thus the easiest way to get the shinobi in is to offer Yabushige a supposed path out of his situation. It would also seem to be strange for Ishido to sick the shinobi on them. If he was ok with Mariko dying, then why interrupt the Seppuku ritual? Why not just massacre them on the way out in the woods like he did Sugiyama and his entire retinue? Killing her with shinobi seems ridiculously obvious. ------ One thing I don't understand, and the past episodes don't make clear: When Ochiba is sitting in on the council after Mariko declares she will commit suicide since she is not allowed to leave, Ochiba declares that letting Mariko kill herself would result in a revolt from every high family. Why? It is made clear in episode 6 that all the high lords, especially the regents understand they are hostages during the play. Sugiyama openly declares in council that there is no plot against the heir and they are all hostages. The Daiyouin openly talks about the hostages and how they should be released before she has her stroke. So why would Mariko's death change anything? What does being the daughter of Akechi Jinsai, which she openly reminds everyone in episode 9, confer to her death that would outrage the lords enough take risks to revolt openly against Ishido. Would it be exceptionally shameful? I cannot find any real reason and I have combed through all the episodes starting from #5 when Mariko's backstory was first dropped. And it is clear Toranaga did send her to die so her death has some weird meaning above and beyond demonstrating the open secret that Ishido has confined the lords to Osaka. And there is this innuendo about how Akechi specifically spared Mariko for "his plan" all along. Maybe they will clarify this in the last episode. joepinetree posted:But the whole point is that Mariko couldn't leave the castle. After she left, what happened to her was irrelevant. This further illustrates why it is unlikely for Ishido to have called in the Shinobi. He concedes defeat by allowing all families who apply for a permit to leave. MikeC fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 04:35
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While in line for the "what a twist!" thing, I just think a Toranaga false flag has too much potential for failure. But who knows, maybe they'll sell it well if it's that.
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Apr 17, 2024 05:06
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FuriousGeorge posted:Blackthorne reaching through the wall to grab a ninja to shoot him through the wall was a badass move. That was a brutal episode, drat near Breaking Bad s4 finale levels of tension. RIP Mariko, you were too hot for the 17th century. Lessons for gun shooters about cover vs concealment should now until the end of time feature John Blackthorne blasting ninjas on the other side of the wall
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Apr 17, 2024 06:20
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A great episode, but I just want to talk about how much I love when Yabu gets surprised, cocks his head to the side and says "oh?"
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Apr 17, 2024 07:16
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