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haveblue posted:If you are willing to believe that Trump will take a hard stance against Israel based on absolutely nothing but your desire for someone to do it no matter how implausible, why not extend the same courtesy to Biden? If you believe Trump will depart from everything he’s ever said and done, you can also believe Biden is just trying not to rough the Jewish vote in November. And then you can vote for the guy with the better domestic agenda and not a professed desire to exterminate our own minorities Because we've seen 6 months of Biden and it's clear where he stands? Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. A wildcard vs. a guaranteed outcome is a bet a lot of people are willing to take when it's clear what that outcome will be if Biden stays in power.. I don't think most people are saying Trump is definitively going to be better on the issue, but he's certainly far more likely. Also, there's something deeply humorous about the argument that Biden is doing this to secure the Jewish vote while also arguing we need Biden to protect minorities, like said Jewish voters. One would think these voters would be far easier to influence by pointing out the other guy is Orange Hitler but apparently they don't believe that. Why should I? koolkal fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 19:29
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zoux posted:Double good news: Looks like Ukraine aid is going to pass and it's going to mean another speakership crisis for the House GOP. I'm struggling to remember. Is that "any one R can call a no confidence vote" rule still active?
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Apr 17, 2024 19:33
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koolkal posted:Because we've seen 6 months of Biden and it's clear where he stands? Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. Trump's a wildcard because he does things like bomb beloved Iranian generals, he's not fully random he randomly does something much worse than what any other president would have done, not things that are much better
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Apr 17, 2024 19:36
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I'm struggling to remember. Is that "any one R can call a no confidence vote" rule still active? It is, and MTG filed one right before the most recent recess. Some procedural reason it didn't come up, though. But I think that Mr. Johnson's days are numbered. https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1780664984072028573 Gaetz did say in that same interview I posted about last page that he doesn't support ousting Johnson because he thinks it'll result in a Democratic speaker. So we'll just have to see if the entire House GOP caucus can pass the marshmallow test. e: oh and apparently Massie has joined the Gentlelady from Crossfit in her motion  lol
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Apr 17, 2024 19:37
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Combed Thunderclap posted:It feels deeply perverse to read this and experience a wave of nostalgia for the summer of 2016, of all years, but here we are, eight years later… socialsecurity posted:So we should ignore everything Trump has ever said he will do and has done in the past in regards to Israel to pretend he will be better? Is there any reason we should believe this fanfiction? Queering Wheel posted:I'm trans as well. I don't think that Palestinians are less real and less human, but they're half a world away and I would like for my existence to not be made illegal. I'd like to not be forcibly detransitioned/thrown into prison for simply existing/whatever other vile poo poo a Trump administration would do to me. So, I'm voting Biden. I have to look out for myself and those I care about. It looks to me like activism at the state and local level is way more meaningful to trans rights than the choice between Biden and Trump. The good news is that if the centrist argument is true, you can not vote for Biden on Tuesday and on Wednesday go right back to protesting whatever cornfed lunatic is trying to outlaw our existence. The Mattybee posted:This is not the first time this has come up and every single time people put together a litany of quotes from Trump about supporting Israel just killing all of them, it goes unaddressed or handwaved away with "Well that's just Trump saying things he just says whatever". Do I think Trump will be better? Probably not. What do you think Trump will do for Israel that Biden isn't already doing? If it's vocal support, Biden's already doing that. Will he send more weapons? Deploy American troops? Setting aside that Trump does care about his approval rating beyond the diehard base, how much does the magachudbase really want to send troops to Gaza, or incur visible economic impacts for Israel's sake?
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Apr 17, 2024 19:38
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koolkal posted:I don't think most people are saying Trump is definitively going to be better on the issue, but he's certainly far more likely. When has Trump ever been better on an issue than expected? He was in office for four years, if it was "far more likely" that should be easy to find.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:39
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GlyphGryph posted:When has Trump ever been better on an issue than expected?
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Apr 17, 2024 19:41
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zoux posted:It is, and MTG filed one right before the most recent recess. Some procedural reason it didn't come up, though. I would die laughing. But who the gently caress do they even have who'd WANT the job, at this point?
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Apr 17, 2024 19:42
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Halloween Jack posted:Trump does, in fact, talk a lot of poo poo. He likes to say he did, is doing, or will do things that he didn't and doesn't do. He also likes to point at any perceived weakness in his opponents and claim that he did, would have, or will do better on the issue. The usual natsec bugmen are already crawling out of the woodwork to lament that he didn't start a war with Iran when he had the chance. He tried to start a war. He literally assassinated an Iranian general, which was loving crazy
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Apr 17, 2024 19:43
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Halloween Jack posted:I really envy that you didn't have to spend Wednesday, November 9th, 2016 explaining to your friends that the President doesn't actually have a big red button in the Oval Office that launches all of the nukes. I really do. Trump being better than expected and and Trump being less capable than expected are very different things when discussing stuff that is definitely within his capacity. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2024 19:45
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GlyphGryph posted:When has Trump ever been better on an issue than expected? He was in office for four years, if it was "far more likely" that should be easy to find. trump gave me money. didnt expect that
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Apr 17, 2024 19:45
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Lemming posted:He tried to start a war. He literally assassinated an Iranian general, which was loving crazy He also tried to launch a coup in Venezuela in a plan I can only describe as "Stupid Bay of Pigs" to go along with every other stupid version of a debacle or scandal that Donald Trump inflicted on the world. luv2shit posted:trump gave me money. didnt expect that Trump didn't give you loving poo poo. The Democratic-controlled congress did and Trump held it up because he wanted to put his loving name on all the checks.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:45
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GlyphGryph posted:When has Trump ever been better on an issue than expected? He was in office for four years, if it was "far more likely" that should be easy to find. He did not start any new wars. He tried with Iran, but thankfully the Iranians were the adults in the room and did not take his bait beyond a relatively minor reprisal.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:47
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luv2shit posted:trump gave me money. didnt expect that Wrote the bill all by himself and didn't try to get it reduced or anything, 100% credit to Trump there, as long as you don't pay attention to what actually happened or are pretending to support Trump to own the libs.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:47
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koolkal posted:Because we've seen 6 months of Biden and it's clear where he stands? Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. Can you give an actual example of where Trump's actions have substantially differed from the Republican party line? He was actually president for a full term, the whole "you never know how he's going to act!" argument doesn't work when we have four years of his actions. Keeping in mind as well that every single person in Trump's orbit are full-throated supporters of Israel. This includes his friend Netanyahu himself, whose only criticism from Trump is that he isn't hawkish enough.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:47
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GlyphGryph posted:Trump being better than expected and and Trump being less capable than expected are very different things when discussing stuff that is definitely within his capacity. That's an issue with the way you originally framed the question, though (ie: what did you mean by "better than expected?"), not the answers that people gave you in response.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:49
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koolkal posted:Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. Trump's actions on policy are extremely predictable and don't deviate significantly from the positions of the Republican party. The unpredictable part is him finding new and interesting ways to break the law, but that's not relevant here. There were some journalists in 2016 who thought he was coming up with some new syncretic blend of left and right wing policy, but since he was famously president from 2017-21 we know that those journalists were wrong (and would probably chase a laser pointer like a cat does).
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Apr 17, 2024 19:49
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koolkal posted:Because we've seen 6 months of Biden and it's clear where he stands? Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. This is like "Look how sweet and statesmanlike George W Bush is!" level of rebranding. We had four years of Trump. We know what he did. We know how he was stopped from doing worse. Why are you giving Trump so much benefit of the doubt? What did he do to earn it? For gently caress's sake, he is not unpredictable. He is going to do whatever gets him more power and whatever hurts his opponents worse. We saw this happen with our own eyes and it's comical that there are people who, after eight years of him, are like "Gee whiz! Who knows what Trump's going to do!? He's so random! 'Purple monkey dishwasher', am I right?" Majorian posted:He did not start any new wars. He tried with Iran, but thankfully the Iranians were the adults in the room and did not take his bait beyond a relatively minor reprisal. I guess people just really want to memory hole/whitewash Trump. *cough* DRONE STRIKES *cough* (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2024 19:50
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socialsecurity posted:Wrote the bill all by himself and didn't try to get it reduced or anything, 100% credit to Trump there, as long as you don't pay attention to what actually happened or are pretending to support Trump to own the libs. The fact that he signed it into law and had the political cunning to take credit for it was genuinely unexpected, at least for me. I didn't think he would do it. The fact that the Dems actually did most of the work to make it happen is immaterial; the question was, "How was Trump better than expected?" volts5000 posted:I guess people just really want to memory hole/whitewash Trump. *cough* DRONE STRIKES *cough* Uh, no they don't. The question that was asked was, "How was Trump better than expected?" I gave an answer: he did not start any new wars. That does not mean that I view his foreign policy as anti-interventionist or anything else like that. That is simply an area in which I expected him to be much worse than he turned out to be.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:51
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Angry_Ed posted:Trump didn't give you loving poo poo. The Democratic-controlled congress did and Trump held it up because he wanted to put his loving name on all the checks. opps, sorry. didnt know that. thank u for the info.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:52
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GlyphGryph posted:No one here has argued in favour of "voting for genocide" more than you have by any metric I can identify. The argument has been made that Trump voters are directly responsible for the things he does, something I agree with; you are responsible for the actions of the people you put in power. If that is true, why doesn't the same extend to Biden voters, especially if they are doubling down this November? I don't believe there is any debate about Biden's role in the genocide. He has gone around congress to rearm Israel, he has pushed for funding, he has defunded aid agencies and pressured our allies to do the same, he attacked Yemen to protect Israel from the Houthis, he recently sold Israel more jets, and his administration has denied Israeli wrongdoing.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:53
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koolkal posted:Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. Trump is extremely predictable because you can count on him to do the dumbest and worst thing possible at any given time
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Apr 17, 2024 19:54
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Trump is extremely predictable because you can count on him to do the dumbest and worst thing possible at any given time But you see he signed his name on a bill that he (probably) believed would win him 2020 because he "gave" people money without doing any actual work himself. That is totally unexpected...if you forget literally everything about Donald Trump, walking avatar of narcissism. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2024 19:55
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Majorian posted:The fact that he signed it into law and had the political cunning to take credit for it was genuinely unexpected, at least for me. I didn't think he would do it. The fact that the Dems actually did most of the work to make it happen is immaterial; the question was, "How was Trump better than expected?" To be fair, the fact that Trump didn't start a new war in that specific case is more a result of Iran showing a pretty unexpected amount of restraint in not responding to the assassination. I would say that Trump probably actually tried to start a war more than I thought he would, I didn't think he'd just randomly assassinate higher ups (of course he did all the droning you'd expect him to have done). I don't think it's fully reasonable to give him points when he did all the steps he could to provoke a war
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Apr 17, 2024 19:56
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Majorian posted:The fact that he signed it into law and had the political cunning to take credit for it was genuinely unexpected, at least for me. I didn't think he would do it. The fact that the Dems actually did most of the work to make it happen is immaterial; the question was, "How was Trump better than expected?" Donald Trump taking credit for something he didn't do after he failed to stop it and it turns out to be popular is "genuinely unexpected"?
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Apr 17, 2024 19:56
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Angry_Ed posted:But you see he signed his name on a bill that he believed would win him 2020 because he "gave" people money without doing any actual work himself. That is totally unexpected (if you forget literally everything about Donald Trump, walking avatar of narcissism). Given that the usual Republican MO is austerity at all times, no money to the people even in times of crisis, and given how much of a dullard Trump often is, it was surprising to me that he decided to do something politically smart for a change, yes. If you weren't surprised, good for you. Xombie posted:Donald Trump taking credit for something he didn't do after he failed to stop it and it turns out to be popular is "genuinely unexpected"? He signed it into law instead of vetoing it. That shows that he had more political sense than your usual Republican elected official, which I admit is a low bar. But we're talking about things that surprised us. I'm relating something that surprised me.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:57
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Majorian posted:That's an issue with the way you originally framed the question, though (ie: what did you mean by "better than expected?"), not the answers that people gave you in response. It's not an issue for anyone actually following the conversation. The point of contention was Trump's unpredictability in regards to to responding to public pressure meaning he is "far more likely" to be better on the issue. They aren't arguing he'd be easier to stop or that he'd somehow bungle it, but that he'd actively choose to take a better path. Trump approving the COVID aid would qualify (the extent is arguable, but I think it qualifies), "Trump didn't detonate a nuke in the planet's center" would not. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 19:58
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Fart Amplifier posted:This seems to be the content free comment that baited everyone into the same old flame war that turns this thread into the same unreadable mess every single time it happens. Yeah, I think it is good to point these out and I wish people would eventually recognize these and learn not to take that bait.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:59
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Lemming posted:To be fair, the fact that Trump didn't start a new war in that specific case is more a result of Iran showing a pretty unexpected amount of restraint in not responding to the assassination. I would say that Trump probably actually tried to start a war more than I thought he would, I didn't think he'd just randomly assassinate higher ups (of course he did all the droning you'd expect him to have done). I don't think it's fully reasonable to give him points when he did all the steps he could to provoke a war Oh, I agree 100%. This isn't in praise of Trump himself. It's just an area where I expected him to be worse than he turned out to be. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 20:02
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Majorian posted:Oh, I agree 100%. This isn't in praise of Trump himself. It's just an area where I expected him to be worse than he turned out to be. That's 200%.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:03
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Majorian posted:Given that the usual Republican MO is austerity at all times, no money to the people even in times of crisis, and given how much of a dullard Trump often is, it was surprising to me that he decided to do something politically smart for a change, yes. If you weren't surprised, good for you. All direct payments so far have been under the last two GOP presidents. The CARES Act is one of the largest handouts to private business in a century. Trump personally grifted from it. quote:He signed it into law instead of vetoing it. That shows that he had more political sense than your usual Republican elected official, which I admit is a low bar. But we're talking about things that surprised us. I'm relating something that surprised me. The CARES Act passed the senate 96-0.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:04
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Lemming posted:He tried to start a war. He literally assassinated an Iranian general, which was loving crazy To be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone vote for Trump as a harm reduction candidate. My claim is that there's no moral or strategic imperative to vote for Biden and you aren't doing your part to make a better place by supporting an enthusiastic purveyor of genocide, regardless of his stance on any other issue.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:05
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Nenonen posted:That's 200%. Ahahaha, not sure what happened there. Xombie posted:All direct payments so far have been under the last two GOP presidents. The CARES Act is one of the largest handouts to private business in a century. Trump personally grifted from it. That's great. I wasn't paying close attention to it at the time (foreign policy is more my beat), so it was a surprise to me. Again, if it wasn't a surprise for you, good for you.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:08
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Halloween Jack posted:I really envy that you didn't have to spend Wednesday, November 9th, 2016 explaining to your friends that the President doesn't actually have a big red button in the Oval Office that launches all of the nukes. I really do. That had to explained to Trump too though. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/milley-acted-prevent-trump-misusing-nuclear-weapons-war-china-book-n1279187
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Apr 17, 2024 20:09
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I yearn for a return of the days of Maureen Dowd writing about Donald the Dove.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:09
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Halloween Jack posted:I have no interest in fanfiction about Donald the Dove, just as I don't care for fanfiction about how he's going to declare himself the Emperor Fuhrer. Did you have a bridge game or something on Jan 6, 2021?
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Apr 17, 2024 20:11
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Angry_Ed posted:But you see he signed his name on a bill that he (probably) believed would win him 2020 because he "gave" people money without doing any actual work himself. That is totally unexpected...if you forget literally everything about Donald Trump, walking avatar of narcissism. He still signed the bill instead of vetoing it. The material conditions of many people were improved by the free money. You're mad because trump did something good for people and you think the reasons matter. The people who got free money when they needed it most didn't care that he signed the bill out of narcissism. Those same people are also mad at Biden for not following up on the extra money he promised them during his campaign I loathe trump as much as anyone else but please stop pretending that his reasons for signing the bill to give people free money actually matter. And if you insist on doing so then you also need to explain why Biden's reasons for not sending people even more free money are valid somehow
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Apr 17, 2024 20:12
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Riptor posted:Did you have a bridge game or something on Jan 6, 2021? Or miss any of the Republicans very public policies about how they want to handle things soon as he's re-elected.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:13
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Jimbozig posted:"First they came for the Gazans, and I voted for that poo poo because the other guy was
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Apr 17, 2024 20:13
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Elephant Ambush posted:He still signed the bill instead of vetoing it. The material conditions of many people were improved by the free money. You're mad because trump did something good for people and you think the reasons matter. The people who got free money when they needed it most didn't care that he signed the bill out of narcissism. Those same people are also mad at Biden for not following up on the extra money he promised them during his campaign I forgot, why was the government giving out free money?
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Apr 17, 2024 20:16
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