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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Yes but it’s like, of the 7% caused by infantry weapons, 90% are by their crew served. have mortars entirely replaced "infantry guns"? I assume yes, and it's because anything that a mortar can't reach/destroy, they should be calling dedicated artillery for, and infantry guns only existed at a time when mortars were limited enough in caliber that there was still a niche for the former?
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Apr 22, 2024 11:55
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gradenko_2000 posted:have mortars entirely replaced "infantry guns"? I assume yes, and it's because anything that a mortar can't reach/destroy, they should be calling dedicated artillery for, and infantry guns only existed at a time when mortars were limited enough in caliber that there was still a niche for the former? Well recoilless rifles did, but then when they replaced the anti-tank part of that with ATGMs, mortars had to pick up the slack. The Russians make fragmentation and FAE missiles for their ATGMs, so they’ve retained a bit more of the infantry gun capability, the SPG-9 has also begun to show up again in Ukraine.
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Apr 22, 2024 12:03
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Yes but it’s like, of the 7% caused by infantry weapons, 90% are by their crew served. Oh you will get no argument from me that it's a bad idea, I merely suggest it as a possible reason under a techno war style analysis.
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Apr 22, 2024 12:22
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I find it interesting that many chickenhawk liberals seem to believe we aren't in a cold war, but an actual hot ww3 against Iran, China, and Russia.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:10
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Mr Hootington posted:I find it interesting that many chickenhawk liberals seem to believe we aren't in a cold war, but an actual hot ww3 against Iran, China, and Russia. The interesting part is when they figured out how f'ed up both the American MIC and the DoD are at this point, much less other Western militaries. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 13:32 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 13:12
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Ardennes posted:The interesting part is when they figured out how f'ed up both the American MIC and the DoD are at this point much less other Western militaries. That is why they are starting to use secondary sanctions and tariffs.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:20
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We're also seeing the revival of "well if they really step out of line we'll unveil our secret technologies" because our "conventional" cutting edge poo poo is barely functional there is no nation out there trembling at the might of the F-35
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Apr 22, 2024 13:22
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Mr Hootington posted:That is why they are starting to use secondary sanctions and tariffs. If tariffs didn't work in 2019, they aren't going to work now. Secondary sanctions are just going to force those countries to work more closely with Russia and Iran.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:34
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This may be an extremely dumb question, but Wikipedia tells me the m224 mortar is 47lbs. Surely we are at a point in materials technology where it could be made out of some super lightweight composite or ceramic or something that would at least cut the weight in half or more and maybe even allow for shrinking down so it's easier for troops to carry and also not require 3 people. You could have twice as many in a platoon instead of even less than we use to have?
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Apr 22, 2024 13:39
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Apr 22, 2024 13:46
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Even in WW2 the Japanese had the pretty deadly 50mm mortar that only weighed 10lb that could start laying down 25 rounds per minute within seconds of contact, it had a short range but seems like it was definitely worth carrying around. It is a little strange something like that wasn't more widely adopted and developed upon into the modern day
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Apr 22, 2024 13:47
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I would not be surprised at all if the Americans misinterpreting how the Japanese used their mortars had something to do with that.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:58
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The two inch mortar was in service until the 80’s. The book on light mortars says American (and German) ones were almost uniquely overbuilt and sophisticated given their role and weight of fire.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:59
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I think the problem is that at some point you want the thing to be durable, and also cheap. Modern Western howitzers are sold as being light, and then the idea of firing 100 rounds through them is seen as absurd (see: Bundeswehr comment on PzH2000 throwing an error code after 100 rounds). Mortars don't really need to be light, but they do need to be durable and able to fire many shots. Would an infantryman prefer a lighter mortar? Definitely! And one could definitely try to engineer them to be lighter without compromising function, but that requires an attitude that prioritizes function over vibes. Otherwise you do it wrong and end up with something lighter but unusable. There is a wider point here where it's actually kind of interesting how the West, and especially the US, is obsessed about lightness in certain things (howitzers, brigades), but loves weight in others (SIG rifle, tanks, aircraft). Their "light" thing that they say is definitely not a tank weighs about the same as a T-90.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:01
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Well there’s a problem insofar as “light mortar” can mean two things: miniature artillery pieces, like the American one, which was and is a shrunk down 81mm, or “tube with a line painted on it to aim”, the Japanese and British ones. This means that light mortar designs swing all over the place between trying to be fire support weapons, which as you say requires durability, complex gearing for elevation, aiming devices, versus something intended to augment, and work like, a rifle grenade or underbarrel grenade launcher, to lay smoke and fire flares.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:06
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Mr Hootington posted:That is why they are starting to use secondary sanctions and tariffs. The overreliance on sanctions is actively backfiring. It's a one trick pony and the US hasn't caught on yet that sanctioned countries are working together to overcome them. As time goes on and US hegemony continues to decline, sanctions will be even less effective as a tool to wreck economies.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:07
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VoicesCanBe posted:The overreliance on sanctions is actively backfiring. It's a one trick pony and the US hasn't caught on yet that sanctioned countries are working together to overcome them. the idea that a globally interconnected world prevents wars because no one would ever want to cut themselves off from global trade stops working the moment that principle gets weaponized: if nations actively start getting cut off from trade as a punishment, then they (and those that recognize the danger of such sanctions) will begin to circumvent the global system, and once secondary or even tertiary networks of trade begin to exist, then suddenly you don't have a globally interconnected world anymore and instead have gone back to competing blocs of power and spheres of influence.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:10
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Isn't the whole use case for that Sig rifle supposed to be one per fire team or something and not general issue to every single grunt? Cheap effective body armor in the form of SAPIs and whatever the foreign equivalents are called is one of the biggest innovations in ground warfare in decades and I personally don't think having the ability to defeat them at the squad or platoon level is a bad or nonsensical decision as far as MIC procurement goes.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:13
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gradenko_2000 posted:the idea that a globally interconnected world prevents wars because no one would ever want to cut themselves off from global trade stops working the moment that principle gets weaponized: if nations actively start getting cut off from trade as a punishment, then they (and those that recognize the danger of such sanctions) will begin to circumvent the global system, and once secondary or even tertiary networks of trade begin to exist, then suddenly you don't have a globally interconnected world anymore and instead have gone back to competing blocs of power and spheres of influence. The west not making anything but spreadsheets has made this way easier. Wait you don't want 25 year old DND posters running your economy?
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Apr 22, 2024 14:26
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The west used to offer access to advanced tech and manufacturing and know how. We've gutted that for number go up
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Apr 22, 2024 14:39
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Isentropy posted:The west used to offer access to advanced tech and manufacturing and know how. We've gutted that for number go up I know it's Sorkinesque slop, but there's that scene from Charlie Wilson's War where Gust Avrakotos decries the CIA's policy of dismissing a bunch of first-generation hyphenated-American agents over suspicions of insufficient national loyalty because "they're barely Americans themselves" and that sort of contradiction undergirds this particular aspect of imperialism where America is supposed to extract the brains of their colonial holdings and create legions of compradors raised on American culture that will ensure pro-USA politics in their home countries... but it's constantly tugging against the latent xenophobia. You can't plant native-speaking saboteurs inside China (or wherever) if you refuse to let them attend your universities for fear of them being spies for the other side.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:45
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gradenko_2000 posted:I know it's Sorkinesque slop, but there's that scene from Charlie Wilson's War where Gust Avrakotos decries the CIA's policy of dismissing a bunch of first-generation hyphenated-American agents over suspicions of insufficient national loyalty because "they're barely Americans themselves" and that sort of contradiction undergirds this particular aspect of imperialism where America is supposed to extract the brains of their colonial holdings and create legions of compradors raised on American culture that will ensure pro-USA politics in their home countries... but it's constantly tugging against the latent xenophobia. You can't plant native-speaking saboteurs inside China (or wherever) if you refuse to let them attend your universities for fear of them being spies for the other side. That's right though. Remember that even Ho himself wanted to be an American and believed in it until the racism and bigotry turned him away. Like he couldn't even get them to agree Vietnam could be an independent suzerain
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Apr 22, 2024 15:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:the idea that a globally interconnected world prevents wars because no one would ever want to cut themselves off from global trade stops working the moment that principle gets weaponized: if nations actively start getting cut off from trade as a punishment, then they (and those that recognize the danger of such sanctions) will begin to circumvent the global system, and once secondary or even tertiary networks of trade begin to exist, then suddenly you don't have a globally interconnected world anymore and instead have gone back to competing blocs of power and spheres of influence. The collapse of US unipolarity was inevitable due to TRPF, but boy has the US made a lot of decisions since 1991 to accelerate that collapse. The weaponization of sanctions might be one of their worst mistakes, not just because of the aforementioned development of alternate trade blocs but the sanctions rarely even lead to the desired regime change. It just causes a lot of suffering in the targeted country (a feature, not a bug). And while that suffering serves a purpose - a warning for other countries not to deviate from the Washington consensus - long term its probably lead to more countries, on net, leaving that consensus. VoicesCanBe has issued a correction as of 15:40 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 15:38
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The question is also now when the "pain" even to targeted populations is relatively minimal and there is often immediately blow back from it. The button is both not working and also heating up and burning off their fingerprints.
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Apr 22, 2024 15:51
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That depends on the country. Russia pretty much shrugged them off but countries like Venezuela, Iran, Nicaragua, Cuba etc haven't been so lucky. They're able to get by but sanctions cause them major problems.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:02
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The US deploying them against Russia, and increasingly China, weakens sanctions as a system, which will hopefully give some respite to the countries that were crippled by them.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:05
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:The US deploying them against Russia, and increasingly China, weakens sanctions as a system, which will hopefully give some respite to the countries that were crippled by them. north korea specifically seems to already be pulling in some casual Ws off of all this sanctioning, you love to see it
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Apr 22, 2024 16:06
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D-Pad posted:This may be an extremely dumb question, but Wikipedia tells me the m224 mortar is 47lbs. Surely we are at a point in materials technology where it could be made out of some super lightweight composite or ceramic or something that would at least cut the weight in half or more and maybe even allow for shrinking down so it's easier for troops to carry and also not require 3 people. You could have twice as many in a platoon instead of even less than we use to have? Livo posted:https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/14/10lb-60mm-ultra-light-mortar-adopted-polish-special-forces-group/ There are compromises in range & barrel life for sure, but you could argue it's a good trade-off, especially if you're expecting to be fighting a near peer force and currently just have light machineguns/under barrel grenade launchers. You could have the heavier, longer ranged 81mm & 120mm mortars in vehicles for greater fire support, but have several smaller units carrying a lightweight mortar to complement your firearms. I am just a mere armchair general however, As for the Sig round, I would argue that most infantry casualties outside the GWOT are because of artillery & other explosives, small arms fire doesn't make up a big part of that. One could also argue that if your opponent has the equivalent of Type 4 plates, then they'll probably be fairly effective at stopping the new Sig round as well, so uh, outside of longer effective range than the 5.56, why not simply develop the 7.62mm further, or just issue the 6.8mm in a DMR weapon to one trained person per squad? There's a conspiracy theory that the advanced body armour argument was actually a sneaky political back-door excuse for a better & longer ranged round to deal with future autonomous/semi-autonomous scouting or surveillance ground drones. Sure, you can just armour the drones, but that'll make them heavier & less able to navigate awkward terrain, and/or more expensive if you use exotic materials for light-weight armour capable of resisting 6.8mm. Plus the hardware scanning devices & software needed for full autonomous ground navigation in tricky terrain are still fairly fragile to shock & vibrations (without costly hardening of key systems), so a heavier round would be more effective. The fancy Sig optic will help identify & allow engagements of such drones at a longer range than 5.56mm.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:06
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Livo posted:The fancy Sig optic will help identify & allow engagements of such drones at a longer range than 5.56mm. Individual marksmanship has so far never made a difference in US wars, but maybe this time it will give our boys an edge.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:09
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Real hurthling! posted:why doesnt america just build an orbital launching giant mortar and shoot its enemies across the globe from the alaskan tundra? Where is Gerald Bull when we need him?
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Apr 22, 2024 16:13
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Cookie Cutter posted:Even in WW2 the Japanese had the pretty deadly 50mm mortar that only weighed 10lb that could start laying down 25 rounds per minute within seconds of contact, it had a short range but seems like it was definitely worth carrying around. It is a little strange something like that wasn't more widely adopted and developed upon into the modern day Being able to rain down death within seconds seems pretty useful but what do I know? Again, basing this on playing Americas Army and everyone eventually figuring out that the maps had very high ceilings and the way the Unreal engine worked with how they programmed 40mm grenades and RPG-7 rockets, they would eventually come back down. So we spent a hell of a lot of time learning how to line up what were called "dropshots", where you used underslung M203s and sometimes even RPG-7s as mortars, to great effect. Usually you'd only win a game with it once and everyone would wise up, but the area denial value was still immense.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:23
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Orange Devil posted:Being able to rain down death within seconds seems pretty useful but what do I know? Don't RPG-7 rockets self destruct at 400m?
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Apr 22, 2024 16:24
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Not in that game they don't. Though most maps are pretty small so they probably barely ever travel that distance. I think only some of the dropshots we did on SF Recon (aligning it on some stars lmao) might actually travel somewhere near that distance. Even the SF Oasis ones that went crossmap didn't come close I think.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:27
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Livo posted:There are compromises in range & barrel life for sure, but you could argue it's a good trade-off, especially if you're expecting to be fighting a near peer force and currently just have light machineguns/under barrel grenade launchers. You could have the heavier, longer ranged 81mm & 120mm mortars in vehicles for greater fire support, but have several smaller units carrying a lightweight mortar to complement your firearms. I am just a mere armchair general however, That is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of a 3 man team with one mortar give all three of those guys one each. Greatly increased firepower with the same 3 people instead of 9 if you wanted three of the m224s.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:42
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VoicesCanBe posted:That depends on the country. Russia pretty much shrugged them off but countries like Venezuela, Iran, Nicaragua, Cuba etc haven't been so lucky. They're able to get by but sanctions cause them major problems. Arguably, it is about timing at a certain point, the more countries that get sanctioned, the more they have little reason not work with each other and in essence, form a greater and greater bloc. Arguably, the US trying to sanction China is probably good news to Venezuela and Iran. North Korea has only gained as well. Also, China in particular is such a heavyweight that a lot of countries on the sidelines are just going to try to ignore sanctions as much as possible because, at a certain point, losing trade and investment from China is just more scary.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:43
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D-Pad posted:That is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of a 3 man team with one mortar give all three of those guys one each. Greatly increased firepower with the same 3 people instead of 9 if you wanted three of the m224s. The whole point of all of this, going back to the French rifle grenades in WW1, is that you need fire and manoeuvre elements, you can't just shoot the enemy off their position.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:44
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:The whole point of all of this, going back to the French rifle grenades in WW1, is that you need fire and manoeuvre elements, you can't just shoot the enemy off their position. Sure but if they did this they get more fire with the same 3 people instead of reducing their manoeuvre elements to get more fire. It eliminates the tradeoff.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:49
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D-Pad posted:Sure but if they did this they get more fire with the same 3 people instead of reducing their manoeuvre elements to get more fire. It eliminates the tradeoff. The other part of this is the extra hands carry ammo, swabbing, screwing in fuzes etc. More weapons fewer men, I think it's pretty clear by now, just overworks people. You could probably argue for the 5th crewman in MBTs to be brought back, not because a mechanic/radio operator is needed, but because it makes life easier.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:54
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D-Pad posted:That is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of a 3 man team with one mortar give all three of those guys one each. Greatly increased firepower with the same 3 people instead of 9 if you wanted three of the m224s. You know mortars aren't laser guns right, the ammo weighs a lot and takes up a lot of ruck space DJJIB-DJDCT posted:The other part of this is the extra hands carry ammo, swabbing, screwing in fuzes etc. The fifth guy can man the anti-drone radar/turret system! Justin Tyme has issued a correction as of 17:14 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 17:11
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Justin Tyme posted:You know mortars aren't laser guns right, the ammo weighs a lot and takes up a lot of ruck space
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Apr 22, 2024 17:11
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