The US will lose WW3

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

AmyL posted:

Gradenko, here we go again.

https://mcoecbamcoepwprd01.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/library/ebooks/Soldier%27s%20Load_dated%201980.pdf

Edit: I can cut to the chase regarding the author's research thanks to Grad.

What I find interesting when reading about WW2 actions is how there's always a few vehicles/guns that do most of the damage while the rest achieve little. Like the kills are basically clumped and not distributed evenly.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:11

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# ? May 25, 2024 21:43

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Seems pretty obvious. Like, imagine you and your buddies are holding a line. Most of the killing is going to happen at the point where the enemy attacks that line, and not so much at the points where the enemy doesn't.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:12

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Orange Devil posted:

Seems pretty obvious. Like, imagine you and your buddies are holding a line. Most of the killing is going to happen at the point where the enemy attacks that line, and not so much at the points where the enemy doesn't.

Yep. If you read war diaries, often it's a single machine gun or anti tank gun that holds up an attack.

I have my copy of Canadians Under Fire: Infantry Effectiveness in the Second World War, just let me see if I also have a pdf so I don't need to make scans.

e: Yeah, this section ties together the artillery/infantry/fire/movement thing we've been talking about, page 110,

The questionnaires indicate that many Canadian units had substantial experience fighting their own way forward on the attack, rather than relying exclusively on the steady creeping barrage advance as a �crutch.�

There is no question that Canadian set-piece attacks depended more upon a creeping barrage to seize an objective than upon infantrymen having to fight their own way forward using their own organic firepower. However, the evidence demonstrates that fire-and-movement was still employed regularly by Canadian soldiers in battle: in lieu of a barrage, during patrol actions, and when things went awry during an advance. The advance to the objective was also only the first phase of the battle and, according to most sources, the easy part: it was much more difficult to rapidly consolidate a new position and secure it against enemy counter- attacks. While artillery could be pivotal in breaking up a counterattacking enemy force, such actions hinged upon the infantrymen being able to make effective, successful use of their own weapons and skills.

There were almost endless permutations and variations on how Canadian operations were structured and executed in the field: securing a bridgehead over the Leopold Canal was not fighting in Ortona or assaulting the Hitler Line. Given that Canadians were constantly on the strategic offensive and possessed the initiative of when, where, and how to attack, it is not surprising to find that their officers wrote that they employed a range of techniques in overcoming the enemy. Every situation presented new tactical challenges and demanded the application of more than just one tactic. While it appears to be true that Canadian sub-units did not enjoy the same degree of independence and decentralized control as German ones did, they were not chained to the creeping barrage and were typically capable of fighting forward without it, as local conditions and the German opposition allowed. Canadian success on the offensive varied, but it rested upon the effectiveness of its infantry rifle companies, and, generally speaking, they did not disappoint in this regard.

...

Too much has been made of the supposition that this artillery-based tactical doctrine crippled infantry initiative and shackled all movement to the rain of shellfire that constituted the creeping barrage. Such accounts suggest that Canadian soldiers only ever encountered their enemies during rigid set-piece assaults against German defensive lines. Although many major offensives of the Canadian Army were indeed characterized by firepower-intensive actions, these did not represent the entire scope of Canadian tactical experiences. Along relatively static fronts � which characterized most of the Canadian war experience � smaller actions were being undertaken constantly. A variety of different types of patrols, from simple reconnaissance and raiding to full-on fighting patrols, were mounted regularly by Canadian rifle companies in the line. These patrols, reminiscent of the trench raiding of the First World War, were highly fluid, often improvised affairs that demanded tremendous initiative from soldiers at the platoon and section levels. While the proclivity of Canadian soldiers for trench raiding in the First World War has been well established in the historiography, less attention has been paid to the patrols and raids carried out in the Second World War, where the lines could become almost as static as those of 1914 to 1918, if not as elaborately entrenched. The evidence from the battle experience questionnaires shows that Canadians in all theatres participated actively in patrols, and that much of the time they succeeded in dominating the Germans at close quarters and controlling the ground between static positions.

...

The author continues at length, but I'll frame it to tie these threads together: A single Bren gun was not hugely important in a large allied offensive, where the Canadian attack was largely going to go through (or not) based on the plan, and the barrage. However in a patrol, a single Bren gun could significantly multiply the firepower of a file of men, and are often credited for enabling them to break contact. In a battle, obviously, a Bren gun is not going to break the German line, but when it comes to patrolling, having automatic firepower available means that one LMG team can determine the whole action on the smaller scale.

It's why Canadian patrols now are trained to do the peel back where the section LMGs and GPMGs are rushed up to the front of the file, enabling the rest of the patrol, the riflemen, to start breaking contact. The machine-guns make up 80% of an 8 man section's firepower, so you can see why they would do the vast majority of the killing, or through the risk of killing, suppression, at that micro level.

ee: Although this has bizarrely led to machine guns being forced on the artillery battery establishment, so that practically every gun crew has a C6, and there are two HK 40mm GMGs issued to the battery... a decision I still don't understand the rationale of. We have the LAVs in RHQ and the different detachments, so what does gun line need tripod mounted GMGs for, that 25mm Bushmasters can't do (LAVs also mount multiple C6s, mind)? Or, what are the grenade launchers shooting at that the M777s aren't? For anti-tank drill, no NATO military has a solution these days, since 155mm guns aren't QF, and don't have AP, HESH, or HEAT projectiles like 105mm did. Of course if 155mm HE PD isn't going to knock out an AFV, 40mm HEDP sure as hell wouldn't either, so that's not a solution.

eee: The more I think about it, the more I think this was because they saw artillery units were requisitioning TOW sights and tripods in Afghanistan, but that was to use the TOW thermal vision devices for observing at night from FOBs. The HK GMGs come with those too, so maybe this was a very expensive way to issue thermals for OPs on the edge of the battery position, and cutting out the loop where the OP would have to get some else to engage what they saw through the TOW sight? Putting the sight on a GMG gives the sentries the ability to shoot what they see? The more I think about it, the more I think this is what happened.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 22:44 on Apr 22, 2024

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:22

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? So a bunch of you just sit there twiddling thumbs while looking alert and really hoping not too many of your friends are getting blown to shreds. Meanwhile the guys being attacked are deep in the poo poo throwing out everything they got keeping the enemy off.

They probably either get blown up by a preparatory barrage or rack up real good K/D ratios due to defenders advantage. Though in real life it turns out you don't care so much for the K part once you do the D part.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:48

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

quote:

You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? So a bunch of you just sit there twiddling thumbs while looking alert and really hoping not too many of your friends are getting blown to shreds. Meanwhile the guys being attacked are deep in the poo poo throwing out everything they got keeping the enemy off.

They probably either get blown up by a preparatory barrage or rack up real good K/D ratios due to defenders advantage. Though in real life it turns out you don't care so much for the K part once you do the D part.

Capping the flags with unlimited spawns on both sides but one side refuse to play to their advantage because it goes against their idea of sportmanship.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:51

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Orange Devil posted:

You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? So a bunch of you just sit there twiddling thumbs while looking alert and really hoping not too many of your friends are getting blown to shreds. Meanwhile the guys being attacked are deep in the poo poo throwing out everything they got keeping the enemy off.

They probably either get blown up by a preparatory barrage or rack up real good K/D ratios due to defenders advantage. Though in real life it turns out you don't care so much for the K part once you do the D part.

Which is why giving units their own firepower, like weapons platoons and companies is non-negotiable, because it's not going to be like Afghanistan where you can freely manoeuvre your little subunits at your leisure to exactly where you want. If a battalion goes into contact they go into contact, there's no waiting for American A-10s loitering over Bagram to arrive on station, or for the LAVs on QRF to drive 10 minutes down the road, unopposed, and bring their Bushmasters to bear on whatever.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:52

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Orange Devil posted:

You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks?

[tank destroyer doctrine has entered the chat]

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:55

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Yeah and from the other side, most attacks you either did good preparation, which means you know where the enemy strongpoints are, and you came up with a solid, realistic plan to knock those out of action at the critical time when your guys are going over the top, so to speak, which means that actually you're going to encounter little resistance as the enemy was already hosed up when you got there and your job is to seize their poo poo before they manage to recover, and then maybe exploit from there. Or you failed at some part of that, and you get a whole lot of guys blown to bits very quickly for no gain whatsoever. There usually isn't a middle ground.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:57

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Orange Devil posted:

There usually isn't a middle ground.

The fabled Cold War meeting engagement / battle of manoeuvre.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:00

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

The Oldest Man posted:

[tank destroyer doctrine has entered the chat]

Funny you bring that up because .................

Hey FF, something something about how effective government can be without government rules and regulations.

AmyL has issued a correction as of 23:05 on Apr 22, 2024

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:01

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Is that The Bear Went Over the Mountain?

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:07

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Is that The Bear Went Over the Mountain?

Charlie Wilson's War, the book that keeps on giving.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:08

Remulak: Jun 8, 2001; I can't count to four.; Yams Fan

This talk about loading down individual soldiers (sorry, Soldiers) reminded me of an apocryphal story.

A newly-minted General Officer was given a critically important new mission to help our badly overloaded Soldiers, the weight limit was 100 lbs and they were ALWAYS right up against or over that limit, and it was taking a toll.

Guy takes a year, millions of dollars, and came back with the solution:

Better conditioning so they can do more while carrying 110lbs.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:11

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

Remulak posted:

This talk about loading down individual soldiers (sorry, Soldiers) reminded me of an apocryphal story.

A newly-minted General Officer was given a critically important new mission to help our badly overloaded Soldiers, the weight limit was 100 lbs and they were ALWAYS right up against or over that limit, and it was taking a toll.

Guy takes a year, millions of dollars, and came back with the solution:

Better conditioning so they can do more while carrying 110lbs.

You joke but that actually, sorta, maybe happened regarding the better conditioning.

https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a38461772/army-36000-kettlebells-combat-fitness-test/

quote:

This was early 2019, and although we had the most technologically advanced fighting force ever�able to conduct Hellfire-missile strikes from Predator drones piloted by men thousands of miles away�new research had found that soldier fitness had declined over the past few decades. Roughly 12 percent of active-duty soldiers were obese, a figure that had risen 61 percent since 2002. Obesity-related health care and recruiting cost the government $1.5 billion annually.

The Army was planning a generational shift in its culture of fitness that was going to start with its fitness test. Since 1980, the test had been simple�pushups, situps, and a two-mile run. But the new realities of war, military researchers determined, required a test that included forward-thinking strength and conditioning exercises: trap-bar deadlifts, medicine-ball throws, kettlebell farmer�s carries, sled sprints, and that two-mile run. Which meant the Army needed new fitness gear.

Lots of it, including:

1,098,240 pounds of hex barbells.

10,067,200 pounds of bumper plates.

183,040 pounds of medicine balls.

1,464,320 pounds of kettlebells.

That�s 12,812,800 pounds of stuff that is heavy for the sake of being heavy, equal in weight to 2,135 of the pickups parked out front. And by government mandate, it all had to be made in America. In six months.
...

https://www.army.mil/e2/downloads/rv7/acft/acft_field_testing_manual_final.pdf

quote:

Sprint/drag/carry: You must run five times up and down a 25-meter lane, sprinting, dragging a sled weighing 90 pounds and then carrying two 40-pound kettlebell weights. This can simulate pulling a soldier out of harm's way, moving quickly to take cover or carrying ammunition to a fighting position or vehicle.

AmyL has issued a correction as of 23:16 on Apr 22, 2024

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:14

rudecyrus: Nov 6, 2009; fuck you trolls

AmyL posted:

You joke but that actually, sorta, maybe happened regarding the better conditioning.

https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a38461772/army-36000-kettlebells-combat-fitness-test/

https://www.army.mil/e2/downloads/rv7/acft/acft_field_testing_manual_final.pdf

army now requiring Scott Steiner-esque genetic freaks to complete training

article also (unintentionally) reveals how american manufacturing is a logistical nightmare

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:21

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

rudecyrus posted:

army now requiring Scott Steiner-esque genetic freaks to complete training

article also (unintentionally) reveals how american manufacturing is a logistical nightmare

There are also two things that are a given in almost any US military unit.

1. The armory reports are usually falsified.

2. The training schedule is never adhered to because there is so much to do.

# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:26

Livo: Dec 31, 2023

You know how the new US military fitness tests requires hex deadlift bars, medicine balls, kettlebells etc?

Well, the Australian Defence Force PESA fitness test needs only jerrycans, ammunition boxes and a 1.5m loading tray (height of the loading tray of the ADF Unimog truck) or a shelf of same height, plus all personnel must perform their test wearing their helmet and body armour. It was partly designed so that it can be done anywhere in the field. since it only needs equipment any military unit would realistically have access to, rather than specialised fitness test only gear.

AFAIK, I believe there's an biannual Basic Fitness Assessment (run, pushups, situps), for all personnel, which is mainly to ensure that all defence force members maintain a baseline level of fitness over the year. There is then a specific Physical Employment Standards Assessment for Combat Personnel performed periodically. This involves all members wearing their body armor and helmet having to carry jerrycans over distance, repeatedly sprinting then moving to a prone firing position with their weapon, marching with gear to a set pace, and lifting heavy ammunition cans to an raised platform. A dragging/pulling component would be ideal, but that would probably require a dedicated sled type apparatus just for the assessment, so not quite suitable per the ADF requirements.

On the link below, Pages 3 & 4 have the requirements for the two fitness assessments. Sorry for the Scribed link, but it has the full thing since it's only four pages long.

https://www.scribd.com/document/658820528/Army-Physical-Continuum-Information

# ? Apr 23, 2024 02:48

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

quote:

You know how the new US military fitness tests requires hex deadlift bars, medicine balls, kettlebells etc?

Well, the Australian Defence Force PESA fitness test needs only jerrycans, ammunition boxes and a 1.5m loading tray (height of the loading tray of the ADF Unimog truck) or a shelf of same height, plus all personnel must perform their test wearing their helmet and body armour. It was partly designed so that it can be done anywhere in the field. since it only needs equipment any military unit would realistically have access to, rather than specialised fitness test only gear.

AFAIK, I believe there's an biannual Basic Fitness Assessment (run, pushups, situps), for all personnel, which is mainly to ensure that all defence force members maintain a baseline level of fitness over the year. There is then a specific Physical Employment Standards Assessment for Combat Personnel performed periodically. This involves all members wearing their body armor and helmet having to carry jerrycans over distance, repeatedly sprinting then moving to a prone firing position with their weapon, marching with gear to a set pace, and lifting heavy ammunition cans to an raised platform. A dragging/pulling component would be ideal, but that would probably require a dedicated sled type apparatus just for the assessment, so not quite suitable per the ADF requirements.

On the link below, Pages 3 & 4 have the requirements for the two fitness assessments. Sorry for the Scribed link, but it has the full thing since it's only four pages long.

https://www.scribd.com/document/658820528/Army-Physical-Continuum-Information

Simple and inexpensive yet elegant. I like that.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 03:01

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

https://twitter.com/JHannisdahl/status/1782096082052247660

usa can't demonstrate why it has no healthcare to ansarallah

# ? Apr 23, 2024 03:34

Real hurthling!: Sep 11, 2001

Danann posted:

https://twitter.com/JHannisdahl/status/1782096082052247660

usa can't demonstrate why it has no healthcare to ansarallah

is it because the medicine is stuck transiting the cape of good hope

# ? Apr 23, 2024 03:46

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://x.com/starsandstripes/status/1782612862772662763

# ? Apr 23, 2024 04:34

AmyL: Aug 8, 2013; Black Thursday was a disaster, plain and simple.
We lost too many good people, too many planes.
We can't let that kind of tragedy happen again.

fits my needs posted:

https://x.com/starsandstripes/status/1782612862772662763

I'm sure it isn't that big of a deal....

quote:

Barksdale is located near Shreveport in northwest Louisiana and has more than 11,400 military and civilian personnel assigned there, according to the base website. The 2nd Bomb Wing is responsible for providing B-52H Stratofortress bombers for conventional or nuclear operations.

Nevermind!

# ? Apr 23, 2024 04:55

Alpha 1: Feb 17, 2012

fits my needs posted:

https://x.com/starsandstripes/status/1782612862772662763

The rats are about to learn why America doesn't have free healthcare

# ? Apr 23, 2024 05:10

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://x.com/Militarydotcom/status/1782523384288497979

# ? Apr 23, 2024 05:12

Ansar Santa: Jul 12, 2012

Vandenberg Space Force Base

# ? Apr 23, 2024 05:45

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

AmyL posted:

I'm sure it isn't that big of a deal....

Nevermind!

it's funny they're always making fun of Russia for using old designs when the b52h first flew when Joe Biden was 10

# ? Apr 23, 2024 07:57

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

AmyL posted:

Charlie Wilson's War, the book that keeps on giving.

infuriating book.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 11:44

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

I am kind of okay with the American state being a bunch of grifters, the issue is how the rest of the world reacts to them.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:07

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Orange Devil posted:

Which reminds me that ww2 Soviet doctrine for urban combat very quickly became to throw a frag grenade into every single room before entering it.

from "The Long Left Flank"

# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:56

Ted Wassanasong: Apr 8, 2020

Livo posted:

You know how the new US military fitness tests requires hex deadlift bars, medicine balls, kettlebells etc?

Well, the Australian Defence Force PESA fitness test needs only jerrycans, ammunition boxes and a 1.5m loading tray (height of the loading tray of the ADF Unimog truck) or a shelf of same height, plus all personnel must perform their test wearing their helmet and body armour. It was partly designed so that it can be done anywhere in the field. since it only needs equipment any military unit would realistically have access to, rather than specialised fitness test only gear.

AFAIK, I believe there's an biannual Basic Fitness Assessment (run, pushups, situps), for all personnel, which is mainly to ensure that all defence force members maintain a baseline level of fitness over the year. There is then a specific Physical Employment Standards Assessment for Combat Personnel performed periodically. This involves all members wearing their body armor and helmet having to carry jerrycans over distance, repeatedly sprinting then moving to a prone firing position with their weapon, marching with gear to a set pace, and lifting heavy ammunition cans to an raised platform. A dragging/pulling component would be ideal, but that would probably require a dedicated sled type apparatus just for the assessment, so not quite suitable per the ADF requirements.

On the link below, Pages 3 & 4 have the requirements for the two fitness assessments. Sorry for the Scribed link, but it has the full thing since it's only four pages long.

https://www.scribd.com/document/658820528/Army-Physical-Continuum-Information

I honestly cant imagine actually running a PFA in the field rather than just dusting those records.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 16:29

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

rudecyrus posted:

army now requiring Scott Steiner-esque genetic freaks to complete training

SEE XI JINPING NORMALLY WHEN YOU GO UP AGAINST ANOTHER ARMY YOU HAVE A 50/50 CHANCE OF WINNING, BUT WE'RE GENETIC FREAKS AND WE'RE NOT NORMAL! AND WHEN YOU ADD PUTIN TO THE MIX YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING DRASTIC GO DOWN BECAUSE PUTIN KNOWS HE CAN'T BEAT ME AND HE WON'T EVEN TRY!

SENIOR XI, THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE AND THEY SPELL DISASTER FOR YOU AT WW3

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:02

Megamissen: Jul 19, 2022; any post can be a kannapost
if you want it to be

Cerebral Bore posted:

SEE XI JINPING NORMALLY WHEN YOU GO UP AGAINST ANOTHER ARMY YOU HAVE A 50/50 CHANCE OF WINNING, BUT WE'RE GENETIC FREAKS AND WE'RE NOT NORMAL! AND WHEN YOU ADD PUTIN TO THE MIX YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING DRASTIC GO DOWN BECAUSE PUTIN KNOWS HE CAN'T BEAT ME AND HE WON'T EVEN TRY!

SENIOR XI, THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE AND THEY SPELL DISASTER FOR YOU AT WW3

ww3 is a bad format, the rumble is so much better

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:06

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

gradenko_2000 posted:

from "The Long Left Flank"

Woensdrecht and Hoogerheide are really close to where I was born lol.

There's no Zandvoort there though, that's near Amsterdam. Also neither Woensdrecht or Hoogerheide are on Zuid-Beveland (a part of Zeeland) but instead on the mainland in Noord-Brabant. Someone is really loving up their geography.

Looking it up, they must mean https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zandfort

That's not even technically a village.

Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 17:22 on Apr 23, 2024

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:14

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

Orange Devil posted:

There's no Zandvoort, they must mean Zandfort

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLkcFns8Ks

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:45

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

lmao

https://x.com/ErinBanco/status/1782808391770841360

quote:

U.S. officials are starting to accept that their strategy of pressing Niger and other war-battered African countries to break off ties with Moscow and embrace democratic norms is no longer working.

The recent breakdown in relations with Niger, where American troops are set to withdraw as Russian fighters arrive, has forced a reckoning inside the Biden administration over its approach to maintaining its allies in volatile parts of Africa, according to two officials familiar with the matter. Both officials were granted anonymity to speak about sensitive diplomatic negotiations.

Countries across the continent, including Chad, Central African Republic, Mali and Libya, have turned toward Russia for security assistance. Now, in Niger, Russian paramilitary fighters have arrived, sidelining the U.S. and forcing the withdrawal of 1,100 U.S. military personnel there in the next several months, one of the officials said.

While Washington has raised concerns about Niamey�s relationship with Iran, U.S. officials are particularly worried about operating in a country whose government has increasingly close military ties with Russia.

The military junta in March called for the dissolution of the agreement that governs the American military presence in the country, but a date hasn�t been set for their departure.

If U.S. troops leave, America will lose access to a critical military base it relies on to fight groups like ISIS. The U.S. drone base in Niger is used for intelligence collection that is key for targeting terrorist strongholds in the region.

�When all of these countries kicked out the French and turned inward, we then tried to pivot to become the peacemaker in the hopes that we could keep our presence there,� said Cameron Hudson, a former intelligence officer for Africa at the CIA, referring to countries with coup governments in Africa. �All of that is clearly not working. We are now out. Russia is now in.�

The National Security Council did not respond to a request for comment.

U.S. law prohibits Washington from providing funds to coup governments, including Niger. But U.S. officials have tried to maintain diplomatic relations with those countries � many of which have vast natural resources � in an effort to one day resume military and other financial support.

The Biden administration�s strategy has been to try to engage coup governments and negotiate roadmaps and timetables for democratic elections.

But African leaders, while telling diplomats and other American officials that they want to maintain relations with Washington, have largely rebuffed suggestions that their countries need to more fully embrace democracy.

�With most of these governments, they really don�t want to be told what to do,� a third U.S. official said. �There�s a long history of the West telling African countries how to govern and they�re finally saying �enough.��

Some African leaders have welcomed the Russian intervention, saying Moscow can provide fast security assistance when the U.S. cannot. Others have pushed back against U.S. demands for reforms, claiming the West has no right to lecture on democracy in Africa when it ignores similar issues with allies in other parts of the world.

Those rebuffs, including in Niger, have tested American officials as they attempt to try to find a way to hold on to Washington�s long-standing partnerships in countries that hold significant natural resource wealth.

Behind closed doors, officials increasingly believe that it may be unwise to completely withdraw from countries experiencing challenges in democracy, said a DOD official.

Doing so �does leave a huge gap for other less scrupulous competitors� such as Moscow or Beijing to swoop in.

�The fear is, �okay, we�re going to walk away, and Russia is going to come in,�� the official said. �Are we really being a good partner if we are leaving when they are most vulnerable?�

So far, the U.S. has tried to make the most of limited options.

Their most recent strategy has been to expose Russian mercenaries� destruction on the continent, including their vast human rights abuses in an effort to discourage countries from allying with Moscow.

�Russian engagement in Africa is not helpful,� said a second U.S. official. �It�s parasitic.�

So far, though, that effort has not reversed decisions by African leaders, especially those in coup governments, to partner with Russia. Their immediate needs for assistance and security are too great, the official said. And the U.S. can�t provide that kind of help.

�Where the Russians have a real advantage over the United States is they have weapons, and they sell weapons, including helicopters,� the senior U.S. official said. �And they sell small arms. There are a lot of security challenges in Africa and Africans need weapons.�

Russia has seized on the opportunity, using mercenaries and other fighters aligned with the ministry of defense to help provide security. In Mali for example, members of Russia�s elite Wagner paramilitary force have been helping government forces carry out strikes and raids that have killed scores of civilians in recent months, according to rights groups.

Now, for the first time in Niger, the Russian ministry of defense is overseeing a new security mission, dispatching paramilitary fighters to help train Niger�s military. Russia�s moves raised alarms among Biden administration officials who have tried to negotiate a deal with the military junta that would ultimately allow the U.S. troops to remain in the country.

Many of the Russian fighters in Niger, and those bound for neighboring Burkina Faso, formerly fought under Yevgeny Prigozhin when he led the Wagner forces. Wagner was Russia�s most elite paramilitary force, operating in various corners of the world, including Ukraine and Africa.

Since his attempted overthrow of the country�s military leaders last summer and his subsequent death, many of his former employees have joined new and existing private security forces overseen by Moscow�s military and intelligence services.

It is still not clear how soon U.S. forces will leave Niger, or if there might be a way to negotiate for them to remain. One senior U.S. official said there�s a possibility the U.S. still helps train the military in Niger.

Pentagon spokesperson Maj. Gen. Patrick Ryder confirmed Monday �the beginning of discussions between the U.S. and Niger for the orderly withdrawal of U.S. forces from the country,� and said DOD is sending a small delegation to participate in the discussions. He did not give a timeframe for the delegation to arrive or for U.S. troops to leave the country.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:47

DJJIB-DJDCT: Feb 1, 2024

I had heard that the new RAND report, superseding the now infamous Overextending Russia is full of "Oh poo poo! Oh poo poo! Oh poo poo!" realizations like that.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:49

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

fits my needs posted:

lmao

https://x.com/ErinBanco/status/1782808391770841360

i sigh deeply as i go to reset the time elapsed since the last "its always projection" event clock back to zero

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:55

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLkcFns8Ks

They're not homonyms.

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:55

D-Pad: Jun 28, 2006

I just saw a video that said f35s sold for export can't startup without a password provided by the US and the password changes daily. Basically meaning the US has to authorize every single flight. This sounds untrue but also I can absolutely see the US doing this. It also said Israel f35s are the one exception.

Is this real because LOL

# ? Apr 24, 2024 00:53

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 21:43

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

D-Pad posted:

I just saw a video that said f35s sold for export can't startup without a password provided by the US and the password changes daily. Basically meaning the US has to authorize every single flight. This sounds untrue but also I can absolutely see the US doing this. It also said Israel f35s are the one exception.

Is this real because LOL

https://twitter.com/RajBhads90/status/1738920796687684039

# ? Apr 24, 2024 00:55

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > The US will lose WW3

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