AmyL posted:Gradenko, here we go again. What I find interesting when reading about WW2 actions is how there's always a few vehicles/guns that do most of the damage while the rest achieve little. Like the kills are basically clumped and not distributed evenly.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:11 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 03:27 |
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Seems pretty obvious. Like, imagine you and your buddies are holding a line. Most of the killing is going to happen at the point where the enemy attacks that line, and not so much at the points where the enemy doesn't.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:12 |
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Orange Devil posted:Seems pretty obvious. Like, imagine you and your buddies are holding a line. Most of the killing is going to happen at the point where the enemy attacks that line, and not so much at the points where the enemy doesn't. Yep. If you read war diaries, often it's a single machine gun or anti tank gun that holds up an attack. I have my copy of Canadians Under Fire: Infantry Effectiveness in the Second World War, just let me see if I also have a pdf so I don't need to make scans. e: Yeah, this section ties together the artillery/infantry/fire/movement thing we've been talking about, page 110, The questionnaires indicate that many Canadian units had substantial experience fighting their own way forward on the attack, rather than relying exclusively on the steady creeping barrage advance as a “crutch.” There is no question that Canadian set-piece attacks depended more upon a creeping barrage to seize an objective than upon infantrymen having to fight their own way forward using their own organic firepower. However, the evidence demonstrates that fire-and-movement was still employed regularly by Canadian soldiers in battle: in lieu of a barrage, during patrol actions, and when things went awry during an advance. The advance to the objective was also only the first phase of the battle and, according to most sources, the easy part: it was much more difficult to rapidly consolidate a new position and secure it against enemy counter- attacks. While artillery could be pivotal in breaking up a counterattacking enemy force, such actions hinged upon the infantrymen being able to make effective, successful use of their own weapons and skills. There were almost endless permutations and variations on how Canadian operations were structured and executed in the field: securing a bridgehead over the Leopold Canal was not fighting in Ortona or assaulting the Hitler Line. Given that Canadians were constantly on the strategic offensive and possessed the initiative of when, where, and how to attack, it is not surprising to find that their officers wrote that they employed a range of techniques in overcoming the enemy. Every situation presented new tactical challenges and demanded the application of more than just one tactic. While it appears to be true that Canadian sub-units did not enjoy the same degree of independence and decentralized control as German ones did, they were not chained to the creeping barrage and were typically capable of fighting forward without it, as local conditions and the German opposition allowed. Canadian success on the offensive varied, but it rested upon the effectiveness of its infantry rifle companies, and, generally speaking, they did not disappoint in this regard. ... Too much has been made of the supposition that this artillery-based tactical doctrine crippled infantry initiative and shackled all movement to the rain of shellfire that constituted the creeping barrage. Such accounts suggest that Canadian soldiers only ever encountered their enemies during rigid set-piece assaults against German defensive lines. Although many major offensives of the Canadian Army were indeed characterized by firepower-intensive actions, these did not represent the entire scope of Canadian tactical experiences. Along relatively static fronts – which characterized most of the Canadian war experience – smaller actions were being undertaken constantly. A variety of different types of patrols, from simple reconnaissance and raiding to full-on fighting patrols, were mounted regularly by Canadian rifle companies in the line. These patrols, reminiscent of the trench raiding of the First World War, were highly fluid, often improvised affairs that demanded tremendous initiative from soldiers at the platoon and section levels. While the proclivity of Canadian soldiers for trench raiding in the First World War has been well established in the historiography, less attention has been paid to the patrols and raids carried out in the Second World War, where the lines could become almost as static as those of 1914 to 1918, if not as elaborately entrenched. The evidence from the battle experience questionnaires shows that Canadians in all theatres participated actively in patrols, and that much of the time they succeeded in dominating the Germans at close quarters and controlling the ground between static positions. ... The author continues at length, but I'll frame it to tie these threads together: A single Bren gun was not hugely important in a large allied offensive, where the Canadian attack was largely going to go through (or not) based on the plan, and the barrage. However in a patrol, a single Bren gun could significantly multiply the firepower of a file of men, and are often credited for enabling them to break contact. In a battle, obviously, a Bren gun is not going to break the German line, but when it comes to patrolling, having automatic firepower available means that one LMG team can determine the whole action on the smaller scale. It's why Canadian patrols now are trained to do the peel back where the section LMGs and GPMGs are rushed up to the front of the file, enabling the rest of the patrol, the riflemen, to start breaking contact. The machine-guns make up 80% of an 8 man section's firepower, so you can see why they would do the vast majority of the killing, or through the risk of killing, suppression, at that micro level. ee: Although this has bizarrely led to machine guns being forced on the artillery battery establishment, so that practically every gun crew has a C6, and there are two HK 40mm GMGs issued to the battery... a decision I still don't understand the rationale of. We have the LAVs in RHQ and the different detachments, so what does gun line need tripod mounted GMGs for, that 25mm Bushmasters can't do (LAVs also mount multiple C6s, mind)? Or, what are the grenade launchers shooting at that the M777s aren't? For anti-tank drill, no NATO military has a solution these days, since 155mm guns aren't QF, and don't have AP, HESH, or HEAT projectiles like 105mm did. Of course if 155mm HE PD isn't going to knock out an AFV, 40mm HEDP sure as hell wouldn't either, so that's not a solution. eee: The more I think about it, the more I think this was because they saw artillery units were requisitioning TOW sights and tripods in Afghanistan, but that was to use the TOW thermal vision devices for observing at night from FOBs. The HK GMGs come with those too, so maybe this was a very expensive way to issue thermals for OPs on the edge of the battery position, and cutting out the loop where the OP would have to get some else to engage what they saw through the TOW sight? Putting the sight on a GMG gives the sentries the ability to shoot what they see? The more I think about it, the more I think this is what happened. DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 22:44 on Apr 22, 2024 |
# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:22 |
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You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? So a bunch of you just sit there twiddling thumbs while looking alert and really hoping not too many of your friends are getting blown to shreds. Meanwhile the guys being attacked are deep in the poo poo throwing out everything they got keeping the enemy off. They probably either get blown up by a preparatory barrage or rack up real good K/D ratios due to defenders advantage. Though in real life it turns out you don't care so much for the K part once you do the D part.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:48 |
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quote:You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? So a bunch of you just sit there twiddling thumbs while looking alert and really hoping not too many of your friends are getting blown to shreds. Meanwhile the guys being attacked are deep in the poo poo throwing out everything they got keeping the enemy off. Capping the flags with unlimited spawns on both sides but one side refuse to play to their advantage because it goes against their idea of sportmanship.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:51 |
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Orange Devil posted:You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? So a bunch of you just sit there twiddling thumbs while looking alert and really hoping not too many of your friends are getting blown to shreds. Meanwhile the guys being attacked are deep in the poo poo throwing out everything they got keeping the enemy off. Which is why giving units their own firepower, like weapons platoons and companies is non-negotiable, because it's not going to be like Afghanistan where you can freely manoeuvre your little subunits at your leisure to exactly where you want. If a battalion goes into contact they go into contact, there's no waiting for American A-10s loitering over Bagram to arrive on station, or for the LAVs on QRF to drive 10 minutes down the road, unopposed, and bring their Bushmasters to bear on whatever.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:52 |
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Orange Devil posted:You gotta defend the whole line because you don't know where the enemy will attack. Even once the attack starts you can't all go help out because what if it's a faint? What if there's two attacks? [tank destroyer doctrine has entered the chat]
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:55 |
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Yeah and from the other side, most attacks you either did good preparation, which means you know where the enemy strongpoints are, and you came up with a solid, realistic plan to knock those out of action at the critical time when your guys are going over the top, so to speak, which means that actually you're going to encounter little resistance as the enemy was already hosed up when you got there and your job is to seize their poo poo before they manage to recover, and then maybe exploit from there. Or you failed at some part of that, and you get a whole lot of guys blown to bits very quickly for no gain whatsoever. There usually isn't a middle ground.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 22:57 |
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Orange Devil posted:There usually isn't a middle ground. The fabled Cold War meeting engagement / battle of manoeuvre.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:00 |
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The Oldest Man posted:[tank destroyer doctrine has entered the chat] Funny you bring that up because ................. Hey FF, something something about how effective government can be without government rules and regulations. AmyL has issued a correction as of 23:05 on Apr 22, 2024 |
# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:01 |
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Is that The Bear Went Over the Mountain?
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:07 |
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Is that The Bear Went Over the Mountain? Charlie Wilson's War, the book that keeps on giving.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:08 |
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This talk about loading down individual soldiers (sorry, Soldiers) reminded me of an apocryphal story. A newly-minted General Officer was given a critically important new mission to help our badly overloaded Soldiers, the weight limit was 100 lbs and they were ALWAYS right up against or over that limit, and it was taking a toll. Guy takes a year, millions of dollars, and came back with the solution: Better conditioning so they can do more while carrying 110lbs.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:11 |
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Remulak posted:This talk about loading down individual soldiers (sorry, Soldiers) reminded me of an apocryphal story. You joke but that actually, sorta, maybe happened regarding the better conditioning. https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a38461772/army-36000-kettlebells-combat-fitness-test/ quote:This was early 2019, and although we had the most technologically advanced fighting force ever—able to conduct Hellfire-missile strikes from Predator drones piloted by men thousands of miles away—new research had found that soldier fitness had declined over the past few decades. Roughly 12 percent of active-duty soldiers were obese, a figure that had risen 61 percent since 2002. Obesity-related health care and recruiting cost the government $1.5 billion annually. https://www.army.mil/e2/downloads/rv7/acft/acft_field_testing_manual_final.pdf quote:Sprint/drag/carry: You must run five times up and down a 25-meter lane, sprinting, dragging a sled weighing 90 pounds and then carrying two 40-pound kettlebell weights. This can simulate pulling a soldier out of harm's way, moving quickly to take cover or carrying ammunition to a fighting position or vehicle. AmyL has issued a correction as of 23:16 on Apr 22, 2024 |
# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:14 |
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AmyL posted:You joke but that actually, sorta, maybe happened regarding the better conditioning. army now requiring Scott Steiner-esque genetic freaks to complete training article also (unintentionally) reveals how american manufacturing is a logistical nightmare
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:21 |
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rudecyrus posted:army now requiring Scott Steiner-esque genetic freaks to complete training There are also two things that are a given in almost any US military unit. 1. The armory reports are usually falsified. 2. The training schedule is never adhered to because there is so much to do.
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# ? Apr 22, 2024 23:26 |
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You know how the new US military fitness tests requires hex deadlift bars, medicine balls, kettlebells etc? Well, the Australian Defence Force PESA fitness test needs only jerrycans, ammunition boxes and a 1.5m loading tray (height of the loading tray of the ADF Unimog truck) or a shelf of same height, plus all personnel must perform their test wearing their helmet and body armour. It was partly designed so that it can be done anywhere in the field. since it only needs equipment any military unit would realistically have access to, rather than specialised fitness test only gear. AFAIK, I believe there's an biannual Basic Fitness Assessment (run, pushups, situps), for all personnel, which is mainly to ensure that all defence force members maintain a baseline level of fitness over the year. There is then a specific Physical Employment Standards Assessment for Combat Personnel performed periodically. This involves all members wearing their body armor and helmet having to carry jerrycans over distance, repeatedly sprinting then moving to a prone firing position with their weapon, marching with gear to a set pace, and lifting heavy ammunition cans to an raised platform. A dragging/pulling component would be ideal, but that would probably require a dedicated sled type apparatus just for the assessment, so not quite suitable per the ADF requirements. On the link below, Pages 3 & 4 have the requirements for the two fitness assessments. Sorry for the Scribed link, but it has the full thing since it's only four pages long. https://www.scribd.com/document/658820528/Army-Physical-Continuum-Information
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 02:48 |
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quote:You know how the new US military fitness tests requires hex deadlift bars, medicine balls, kettlebells etc? Simple and inexpensive yet elegant. I like that.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 03:01 |
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https://twitter.com/JHannisdahl/status/1782096082052247660 usa can't demonstrate why it has no healthcare to ansarallah
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 03:34 |
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Danann posted:https://twitter.com/JHannisdahl/status/1782096082052247660 is it because the medicine is stuck transiting the cape of good hope
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 03:46 |
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https://x.com/starsandstripes/status/1782612862772662763
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 04:34 |
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I'm sure it isn't that big of a deal.... quote:Barksdale is located near Shreveport in northwest Louisiana and has more than 11,400 military and civilian personnel assigned there, according to the base website. The 2nd Bomb Wing is responsible for providing B-52H Stratofortress bombers for conventional or nuclear operations. Nevermind!
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 04:55 |
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The rats are about to learn why America doesn't have free healthcare
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 05:10 |
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https://x.com/Militarydotcom/status/1782523384288497979
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 05:12 |
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Vandenberg Space Force Base
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 05:45 |
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AmyL posted:I'm sure it isn't that big of a deal.... it's funny they're always making fun of Russia for using old designs when the b52h first flew when Joe Biden was 10
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 07:57 |
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AmyL posted:Charlie Wilson's War, the book that keeps on giving. infuriating book.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 11:44 |
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I am kind of okay with the American state being a bunch of grifters, the issue is how the rest of the world reacts to them.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:07 |
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Orange Devil posted:Which reminds me that ww2 Soviet doctrine for urban combat very quickly became to throw a frag grenade into every single room before entering it. from "The Long Left Flank"
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:56 |
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Livo posted:You know how the new US military fitness tests requires hex deadlift bars, medicine balls, kettlebells etc? I honestly cant imagine actually running a PFA in the field rather than just dusting those records.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 16:29 |
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rudecyrus posted:army now requiring Scott Steiner-esque genetic freaks to complete training SEE XI JINPING NORMALLY WHEN YOU GO UP AGAINST ANOTHER ARMY YOU HAVE A 50/50 CHANCE OF WINNING, BUT WE'RE GENETIC FREAKS AND WE'RE NOT NORMAL! AND WHEN YOU ADD PUTIN TO THE MIX YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING DRASTIC GO DOWN BECAUSE PUTIN KNOWS HE CAN'T BEAT ME AND HE WON'T EVEN TRY! SENIOR XI, THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE AND THEY SPELL DISASTER FOR YOU AT WW3
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:02 |
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Cerebral Bore posted:SEE XI JINPING NORMALLY WHEN YOU GO UP AGAINST ANOTHER ARMY YOU HAVE A 50/50 CHANCE OF WINNING, BUT WE'RE GENETIC FREAKS AND WE'RE NOT NORMAL! AND WHEN YOU ADD PUTIN TO THE MIX YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING DRASTIC GO DOWN BECAUSE PUTIN KNOWS HE CAN'T BEAT ME AND HE WON'T EVEN TRY! ww3 is a bad format, the rumble is so much better
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:06 |
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gradenko_2000 posted:from "The Long Left Flank" Woensdrecht and Hoogerheide are really close to where I was born lol. There's no Zandvoort there though, that's near Amsterdam. Also neither Woensdrecht or Hoogerheide are on Zuid-Beveland (a part of Zeeland) but instead on the mainland in Noord-Brabant. Someone is really loving up their geography. Looking it up, they must mean https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zandfort That's not even technically a village. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 17:22 on Apr 23, 2024 |
# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:14 |
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Orange Devil posted:There's no Zandvoort, they must mean Zandfort https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLkcFns8Ks
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:45 |
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lmao https://x.com/ErinBanco/status/1782808391770841360 quote:U.S. officials are starting to accept that their strategy of pressing Niger and other war-battered African countries to break off ties with Moscow and embrace democratic norms is no longer working.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:47 |
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I had heard that the new RAND report, superseding the now infamous Overextending Russia is full of "Oh poo poo! Oh poo poo! Oh poo poo!" realizations like that.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:49 |
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i sigh deeply as i go to reset the time elapsed since the last "its always projection" event clock back to zero
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:55 |
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They're not homonyms.
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:55 |
I just saw a video that said f35s sold for export can't startup without a password provided by the US and the password changes daily. Basically meaning the US has to authorize every single flight. This sounds untrue but also I can absolutely see the US doing this. It also said Israel f35s are the one exception. Is this real because LOL
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# ? Apr 24, 2024 00:53 |
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# ? May 26, 2024 03:27 |
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D-Pad posted:I just saw a video that said f35s sold for export can't startup without a password provided by the US and the password changes daily. Basically meaning the US has to authorize every single flight. This sounds untrue but also I can absolutely see the US doing this. It also said Israel f35s are the one exception. https://twitter.com/RajBhads90/status/1738920796687684039
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# ? Apr 24, 2024 00:55 |